Post Bike Fit Misery....

Gav888

Hi,

Just wanted some advice if possible, 2 months ago I had a professional bike fit from a guy that comes with a lot recommendations from locals and also some top professionals as he used to work for Team Sky for a few years as a bike fitter, so he knows his stuff, anyway since the fit I just cannot get comfortable on the bike due to saddle issues/numbness/pain although the overall fit seems ok.... the issues as numbness in the groin and also pain/ache from the sit bones area, probably in front of the sit bones if it makes sense, although I dont feel like I am actually on my sit bones as they dont ache....

I havent been able to ride more than an hour since the fit due to be uncomfortable so I havent really tested it on 4 or 5hr rides, so I dont know if the overall fit is good or not, but on 1hr rides the fit feels ok just saddle problems and sometimes lower back problems as well, but that could be due to the saddle - well that is what he said anyway.

I have spoken to him a few times now since the fit and he said the position on the bike is correct so dont change it, and that I just need to keep trying different saddles until the right one fits you.

Fair enough I thought, but the problem I am facing is that I have tried the whole Fizik range (he recommended the Antares for me by the way due to my flexibility) and quite a few others I have borrowed off mates and every saddle has the same problem, when I level it front to back I just want to fall forward all the time and I have to keep sliding back on the saddle, the only way to get comfortable on a saddle is to get the rear wide part you sit on to be at 0 degrees... ie so the nose is up and the back part is flat, only then do I not want to fall forward and it feels like I can get on with riding the bike instead of constantly shifting and supporting my upper body.

I have tried various saddle positions as well, ie moved it forward 1cm and back 1cm from where he set it, also lowered the nose and also raising the bars and using a 2cm shorter stem, but no matter combination I use I just want to fall forward unless the rear part is flat. I found that raising the bars actually gave me lower back ache, but again it might have just been the saddle??

So I am thinking either I need a perfectly flat saddle nose to tail or something is wrong with my bike position?

Any recommendations as I am getting serious fed up with try saddles and just not being comfortable and I really dont want to fork out another ton of money on another bike fit, when I have already spent a ton on this fit, plus custom insoles which he recommended and some physio work leading up to the fit due to prior achilles issues....

Cheers

supermurph09

My suggestion would be to go back? Tell the fitter that since the fit you're really struggling, I'm sure the fitter would help you. Why did you go, were you uncomfortable before?

sungod

if you're falling forward on a level saddle then i'd assume the saddle needs to be moved further back - in general you should be able to ride without putting any weight on the bars, balanced on the saddle with your body supported by core muscles, if you are in the balance position but can't support youself then maybe do some core strengthening

if you're sliding forward then it could be lack of flexibility - maybe tight hamstrings for instance, which you can do some work on

tbh if the bikefit guy is as experienced as you say then he should be helping you analyse the root cause(s) and advising what to do to improve things

imho saddle comfort is a different topic, fwiw i used to be ok on arione but thing change, in the end i abandoned fizik as none felt right, maybe try a saddle with cutout?

Gav888

Supermurph09, I have gone back to him advising this, which is when he told me to keep trying more saddles and dont touch the bike fit as its correct. I also explained I have tried various saddles and he said to try others. I tried contacting the guy again recently after testing more saddles and nothing, tried calling the office and I just get 'he's busy at the moment, call back later or email your questions and he will get around to answering when he is free' from the receptionist, I have also emailed twice but no replies... annoying as he just seems to be ignoring me now and not providing after care for his fit!

sungod, I have used an Arione for years, one of the classic ones, but in my old fit the nose was 3 degrees up which made the rear flat, but I had the bars closer and higher than they are now, so it kinda worked as the nose wasnt pressing against me with as I was move in an upright position (I hadnt ever had a pro fit before this one) and I could ride for hours like that, although I would still get some numbness which I think is from the narrow profile, my sit bones are 100-120mm depending on who measure it... But I didnt bother sorting it for years.... but since having some issues last year I got the pro fit done and when levelling the saddle I fall forward, it feels like I have too much weight on my hands and my shoulders ache a bit and I have to scoot back on the saddle all the time. Saddle height is ok I would say, I also stretch daily to help as I used to be on the tight side. I have thought about moving back though, whilst riding this morning I moved right back on the saddle and it felt like less weight was on my hands, more balanced (I have read Steve Hoggs fit advice before) but it did feel too stretched out to reach the hoods so I would need a shorter stem as well as moving the saddle back a bit, maybe a cm or so. This adjusts the bike fit which the fitter told me not too, plus my knee over pedal spindle (which is what he used during the Retul fit) is currently 5mm behind the spindle and he said that is ok but would have liked me 5mm forward (which the saddle rail wont do as the test saddle at the time was all the way forward (Antares)).... so I feel like moving it further rearwards is further from where he said I should be putting me even further behind the spindle, if that makes sense?

jfw

Could you mark up your components for this supposedly "perfect fit",

Then put a few spacers on your steerer to lift your bars

Try a stem length in between your old stem and your new one (if this has changed)

And gradually work towards the "ideal position" in small steps

jibberjim

The guy's an incompetent buffoon. Get your money back.

Gav888

jfw wrote:

Could you mark up your components for this supposedly "perfect fit",

Then put a few spacers on your steerer to lift your bars

Try a stem length in between your old stem and your new one (if this has changed)

And gradually work towards the "ideal position" in small steps

I have a fit report with everything documented plus made my own measurements so its easy to go back to my old pre bike fit and also the bike fit position, but, I have tried shorter stems and raising the bars, but it still feels like I am falling forward with a level saddle, or even with the saddle 2 degrees down or up (as fizik have different recommendations on how to setup their saddles, usually nose lower than the rear part but I have tried their recommendations anyway..) its now making me wonder if the saddle is too far forward, or as I just saw on a video link about saddle positions, not high enough???

jibberjim, tempted....

slowbike

he said the position on the bike is correct so dont change it,

hmm - don't change it or don't lose the settings ...

TBH, if you were more comfortable with the bars higher and closer then I'd try moving them back towards the previous position and see what gives - it can take time to get comfortable in a new position and whilst your body may be comfortable, your arse isn't ...
[edit - ok - long time between composing and submitting .... !]

That said, a saddle that is right for one position may not be for another - TT positions are a bit extreme but highlight the point entirely ... last year I converted a roadbike to TT - with the extension bars - but kept my normal road saddle - one that was comfortable for around 80 miles at a time... for the 10 mile efforts it was fine, but as soon as I exceeded that it became increasingly uncomfortable - despite tilting it forward and moving it forward - it's a road saddle, it's not designed for those extremes. This year I've got a saddle more suitable to purpose - took a while to break it in though.
the point is - if you've had a significant change in position then your saddle may no longer be suitable for purpose....

ai_1

Slowbike wrote:

....That said, a saddle that is right for one position may not be for another - TT positions are a bit extreme but highlight the point entirely ... last year I converted a roadbike to TT - with the extension bars - but kept my normal road saddle - one that was comfortable for around 80 miles at a time... for the 10 mile efforts it was fine, but as soon as I exceeded that it became increasingly uncomfortable - despite tilting it forward and moving it forward - it's a road saddle, it's not designed for those extremes. This year I've got a saddle more suitable to purpose - took a while to break it in though.
the point is - if you've had a significant change in position then your saddle may no longer be suitable for purpose....

I agree. I used to ride in a very upright position and got on fine with the stock saddle on my bike. After gradually adapting to a more aggressive position I started to have problems with the saddle on longer rides or if I spent any significant time on the drops. My current position is by no means extreme (I think the saddle to bar drop is about 65mm). I tried a few saddles but couldn't get on with any that didn't provide good perineal relief. I now use a Specialised Romin Evo which I find very well shaped for me. It's got a good cutout but also has a drooped nose so I can sit on a level or slightly raised section so I don't slide forward without the nose causing any discomfort. For using extensions on my other bike, I'm now using an Adamo ISM Attack and I think it's excellent. It's completely different to a conventional saddle and if you try one you'll hate it for the first couple of weeks but may very well come to love it once the getting to know you period is over. I'm happy with both saddles for now but may well try the Attack on the road bike in future as I think it will also work well for me on that.

Gav888

Slowbike wrote:

he said the position on the bike is correct so dont change it,

hmm - don't change it or don't lose the settings ...

TBH, if you were more comfortable with the bars higher and closer then I'd try moving them back towards the previous position and see what gives - it can take time to get comfortable in a new position and whilst your body may be comfortable, your ars* isn't ...
[edit - ok - long time between composing and submitting .... !]

That said, a saddle that is right for one position may not be for another - TT positions are a bit extreme but highlight the point entirely ... last year I converted a roadbike to TT - with the extension bars - but kept my normal road saddle - one that was comfortable for around 80 miles at a time... for the 10 mile efforts it was fine, but as soon as I exceeded that it became increasingly uncomfortable - despite tilting it forward and moving it forward - it's a road saddle, it's not designed for those extremes. This year I've got a saddle more suitable to purpose - took a while to break it in though.
the point is - if you've had a significant change in position then your saddle may no longer be suitable for purpose....

I hope that is just the case, as the fitter said, dont use your old saddle anymore as it wont support your glutes etc, cant recall the exact words, just dont use your old saddle... but he did recommend the Fizik Antrares and after trying it and it not working, plus a large amount of other saddles, its making me question the fit, plus other things I have read... maybe I just need to keep trying saddles, but as others have said here and on other websites, falling forward even with a level saddle means something with the fit isnt quite right, maybe the saddle is too forward hence im falling forward.... dunno.... bit lost to be honest as I was hoping once I had a pro fit and once I tried a few saddles I would be sorted.

napoleond

He might say the fit is correct. He is also clearly wrong. A successful fit is one in which you are comfortable.

sloppyschleckonds

jibberjim wrote:

The guy's an incompetent buffoon. Get your money back.

This

NapoleonD wrote:

He might say the fit is correct. He is also clearly wrong. A successful fit is one in which you are comfortable.

And this

Gav888

These are my measurements.

knee angle flexion 110deg
knee angle extension 39deg
knee forward of foot -5mm
hip angle closed 65deg
hip angle open 110deg
elbow angle 170deg
back angle 48deg
shoulder angle to elbow 79deg

So all of these are within the acceptable range he said, previously my angles were:

knee angle flexion 112deg
knee angle extension 41deg
knee forward of foot -6mm
hip angle closed 68deg
hip angle open 114deg
elbow angle 177deg
back angle 54deg
should angle to elbow 76deg

So looking at it, there isnt a lot in it. Saddle was 1mm higher, setback was actually -70mm to -68mm, bar drop -2.5cm, stem +2cm, saddle angle 0 at the fit, reach is 54cm and 51cm before, bar drop was 6.7cm and now 9.5cm, grip reach +3cm.

The angles dont look a lot different really, a few degrees here and there, but the feel is totally different.

ai_1

Those look like very big changes to me!
The saddle to bar drop has increased massively (28mm) and the reach has also gone up significantly (30mm). These two changes are reflected in what I would have thought was a very significant change in back angle (6 degrees) and your arms are extended much more too (7 degrees). Over the first 18 months or so I was riding I dropped my bars about 50mm but that was from a very high starting point and I did it 5-10mm at a time. Dropping just another 5mm now feels like a significant change. You've got a 28mm change all at once starting from a typical value and ending up at a very aggressive one.
Unless your previous position was way off and causing you problems, that bike fit seems extreme to me (Note: I am NOT an expert.).

jgsi

I may be old but if some professed idiot came quoting 'angles' to me and charging an arm and a leg for a geometry lesson , I'd tell him I hadnt come down the Liffey in a bubble.
You've been had , sunshine.

sungod

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

The guy's an incompetent buffoon. Get your money back.

This

NapoleonD wrote:

He might say the fit is correct. He is also clearly wrong. A successful fit is one in which you are comfortable.

And this

these

JGSI wrote:

I may be old but if some professed idiot came quoting 'angles' to me and charging an arm and a leg for a geometry lesson , I'd tell him I hadnt come down the Liffey in a bubble.
You've been had , sunshine.

and this

you say...

[...]I have thought about moving back though, whilst riding this morning I moved right back on the saddle and it felt like less weight was on my hands, more balanced (I have read Steve Hoggs fit advice before) but it did feel too stretched out to reach the hoods so I would need a shorter stem as well as moving the saddle back a bit, maybe a cm or so.[...]

to me this is it in a nutshell, the 'correct' fit has the saddle so far forward that you are unbalanced, this forces weight onto your arms

i've yet to read anything that shows kops to be valid and imho a few moments consideration of geometry shows it to be a nonsensical idea, we're all different sizes/proportions, the system needs to fit the rider not the other way around

i'd ignore the fitter and try do it by feel...

step one - get the saddle where you can hold position without falling forward, and where you're not overextending at the bottom of the stroke, it won't hurt you to do a few rides with bar/stem as they are
step two - once the saddle is in the right place look at bar height/stem length to suit your position and flexibility

ai_1

JGSI wrote:

I may be old but if some professed idiot came quoting 'angles' to me and charging an arm and a leg for a geometry lesson , I'd tell him I hadnt come down the Liffey in a bubble.
You've been had , sunshine.

Nothing wrong with measuring angles but there is something wrong if that's all he's doing and if that's his definition of getting the bike fit correct as opposed to the rider going away comfortable/fast and happy.

But then I have come down the Liffey in a bubble, oh wait it was a kayak....;)

PTestTeam

Gav888 wrote:

Hi,

Just wanted some advice if possible, 2 months ago I had a professional bike fit from a guy that comes with a lot recommendations from locals and also some top professionals as he used to work for Team Sky for a few years as a bike fitter, so he knows his stuff, anyway since the fit I just cannot get comfortable on the bike due to saddle issues/numbness/pain although the overall fit seems ok.... the issues as numbness in the groin and also pain/ache from the sit bones area, probably in front of the sit bones if it makes sense, although I dont feel like I am actually on my sit bones as they dont ache....

I havent been able to ride more than an hour since the fit due to be uncomfortable so I havent really tested it on 4 or 5hr rides, so I dont know if the overall fit is good or not, but on 1hr rides the fit feels ok just saddle problems and sometimes lower back problems as well, but that could be due to the saddle - well that is what he said anyway.

I have spoken to him a few times now since the fit and he said the position on the bike is correct so dont change it, and that I just need to keep trying different saddles until the right one fits you.

Fair enough I thought, but the problem I am facing is that I have tried the whole Fizik range (he recommended the Antares for me by the way due to my flexibility) and quite a few others I have borrowed off mates and every saddle has the same problem, when I level it front to back I just want to fall forward all the time and I have to keep sliding back on the saddle, the only way to get comfortable on a saddle is to get the rear wide part you sit on to be at 0 degrees... ie so the nose is up and the back part is flat, only then do I not want to fall forward and it feels like I can get on with riding the bike instead of constantly shifting and supporting my upper body.

I have tried various saddle positions as well, ie moved it forward 1cm and back 1cm from where he set it, also lowered the nose and also raising the bars and using a 2cm shorter stem, but no matter combination I use I just want to fall forward unless the rear part is flat. I found that raising the bars actually gave me lower back ache, but again it might have just been the saddle??

So I am thinking either I need a perfectly flat saddle nose to tail or something is wrong with my bike position?

Any recommendations as I am getting serious fed up with try saddles and just not being comfortable and I really dont want to fork out another ton of money on another bike fit, when I have already spent a ton on this fit, plus custom insoles which he recommended and some physio work leading up to the fit due to prior achilles issues....

Cheers

Did the guy fit Chris Froome?

Seriously, you shouldn't be moving about after a correct bike fitting. You should feel 'planted' and able to sit in that position for a length of time.

I know you don't want to fork out for another fit, but as you are in Suffolk I'd recommend you book a session with Giuseppe Giannecchini at Artisan Cycles in Much Hadham.

paul2718

What did you ask the fitter for? It looks like he's given you a much more aggressive lower position, which seems unlikely to be done without asking.

And I'm not quite sure what 'falling forward' means. The bars are a lot lower and further away, so inevitably more weight has to be supported by your arms and by the reaction through your body, your core. Using the nose of the saddle as a wedge seems like a recipe for numbness and pain...

Paul

kajjal

If you can't ride for more than an hour something is very wrong. I would speak to them again and explain your problems and what you want. Not all riders want a stretched out position with a fair amount of drop like the pro's. Once the saddle height and fore/aft position along with your feet is set properly the rest is more down to personal preference.

Gav888

A before on top and after below....

paul2718

So if you set the saddle with the nose level, or even with a whiff of down, what actually happens? Ignoring the sensation of 'falling forwards', which I'm still a little unclear about, for later concern.

(FWIW we now know who did the fit...)

Paul

Gav888

paul2718 wrote:

So if you set the saddle with the nose level, or even with a whiff of down, what actually happens? Ignoring the sensation of 'falling forwards', which I'm still a little unclear about, for later concern.

(FWIW we now know who did the fit...)

Paul

if you recognise the fit studio then you will know he has a good reputation for bike fitting which is why I went to him in the first place. But I have blanked out the names to be sure.

Regarding your question though, taking each of 3 main Fizik saddles (as I have tried all 3 in the video) if I set them as per the Fizik fitment guide - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsoFD_rhNkQ and I sit on the wide part with my sit bones I have to either push against the hoods/bar to stop myself falling forward, ie if I was to relax my arms I would hit my chest on the bar and come off, so I am bracing myself in that position, if I keep the saddle in the Fizik recommended position and move forward so I am sitting on the narrower part then I dont fall forward, but its very uncomfortable and my sit bones are either side of the saddle... after using the Fizik guidelines and not being able to ride I levelled the saddles front to back with a long spirit level, this was better but I still had the same feeling of wanting to fall forward, not as much as the Fizik setup but still too much. If I think adjusted them to what felt comfortable and what stopped me falling forward the rear wide part ended up being flat on each of the saddles.

mamba80

If your falling forwards, then thats normally an indication that the saddle needs to go back on the rails slightly esp as you still look crunched up on the bike but in all honesty, you need to be having this conversation with guy who lifted £100 plus off you, he should have all the measurements, not just angles which all alter when under effort or tiredness, from your previous setup.
Also fizik saddles dont all have the same depth to them, so you may need to raise or lower the seat post to get the same saddle height.

davidof

Gav888 wrote:

A before on top and after below....

Have you a video? You look better below to my eye. You look very upright with locked arms in the top photo.

Gav888

Nah no video, but the bottom photo is post bike fit with all the 'correct angles' as the fitter pointed out.

As a general update, I eventually got to speak to the fitter over the weekend, he said the position is as per the ideal ranges provided by Retul, and that the falling forward will be a result of a lack of core stability and its something I need to work on over the next 8-12 months, it doesnt really help now though... He also said you can buy your way out of this with a more supportive saddle, but this wont fix the underlying issues which is correct.

He did recommend something like the Aliante (which I did try) and other brands if I wish to.... that was it really.

However, I have some taken some of the tips you guys have provided and moved my saddle back 5mm to where it used to be, levelled it, and it actually felt better on a ride, I have also put the shorter stem on, 80cm instead of 100cm, and it again feels more comfortable and less like I was over-reaching.

I want to do more rides like this and see how it goes, but I have noticed by moving the saddle back even this small amount the flat saddle profile I thought I liked was ok, but when I changed the profile to match that of the Aliante, ie with a more raised back it felt nice and comfy in the drops, not so much when on the hoods, but that is most likely my lack of core strength keeping me in that position as he mentioned.

Now I feel like I should re-try the Aliante and the Antares in this new position and see how it goes.

One thing I wanted to check, the saddle height was 76cm from BB to saddle top when the saddle was in the more forward positon the fitter set me up in, but as I have moved it back and also lowered the middle part to adjust the profile the saddle height is now 75.5cm.

Should I raise it 5mm so it fits the original fitment guidelines or as I have moved it back a bit keep it where it is?

I also noticed a bit of a twing on the left achilles area post ride, but my legs were a little on the tight side before the ride so might be that... but feels cautious about raising it just incase.

ai_1

If you're not sure about the saddle height I'd say raise it a little and see if you end up rocking on the saddle. If you do, it's too high, if not decide which you prefer.
There's something wrong with this guys approach if he's saying the machine is correct, your body is wrong.
The whole point of ergonomics (which would include bike fitting) is to adapt the equipment to suit your body not the other way around. If you don't currently have the core strength to maintain the position he's put you in then it's the wrong position pure and simple. Maybe if you do some core training it will be the ideal position for you in 6 months or whatever, but I presume you asked him to fit the bike for you now, not predict what would hypothetically be the right fit at some point in the future if you made certain changes to your body.
I don't know much about the Retul fit procedure but if it's a case of simply getting the rider to match a proscribed set of dimensions and angles and doesn't take an individual's abilities/weaknesses and other feedback into account then I'd say it's a waste of time for most of us.

djhermer

Gav888 wrote:

I eventually got to speak to the fitter over the weekend, he said the position is as per the ideal ranges provided by Retul

I had a Retul fit about 24 months ago - I wasn't uncomfortable on the bike prior, but thought I could improve my position. It resulted in new injuries and pain I'd never before experienced. Went to another fitter and the changes made to my 'Retul' position were immense - dropping saddle by 5mm, moving saddle back 10mm or so, swapping from 110 to 120mm stem and removing 10mm spacers from below the stem.

The problem I have with Retul is that it should only be used as a guide by an experienced fitter. They shouldn't be a slave to the Retul numbers. If it doesn't feel right it probably isn't, depsite what Retul might suggest.

I would suggest going to get a fit by someone who doesn't use Retul and see what happens.

Gav888

Thanks guys, this is something I was very worried about when getting a bike fit, ie that the fitter would just set me up as per the angles (which I could have done myself) and I wanted the experienced eye of a prof fit to make any adjustments taking into account any physical limitations.... but I ended up with an out of the box Retul fit anyone could have done. Fair point he said he didnt see any concerns to not put me in this ideal postion, but since the fit I have core issues and he said to work on yourself to fix them... doesnt help now as I said above.

It's not easy chucking all that money on a fit and end up having to change things back to post fit... but hey ho, you live and you learn I guess.

I will slowly move from the old fit to the new fit over a period of time whilst working on my core as well, so hopefully come a years or so from now I will be in that ideal fit and comfortable with it...

DeVlaeminck

Wow what a terrible fitter, tells you the fit is right it's your body that is wrong! It's actually quite easy to identify the fitter from the clues, Suffolk, worked for Sky, some of the other services offered from the photos - I suggest anyone looking for a fit in Suffolk uses google and avoids this guy.

davidof

Ai_1 wrote:

I presume you asked him to fit the bike for you now, not predict what would hypothetically be the right fit at some point in the future if you made certain changes to your body.

Sounds like a friend of mine. He was riding a 57cm frame the other week but he's about 5'9", he said he'd bought it as a teenager and as his brother is around 6' his dad thought he'd grow in to it.