FIFA

ugo.santalucia

mrushton wrote:

Can't see the difference between cyclists 'selling' a race and this. Cycling really is a microcosm for a lot of sport. Well they can reap the whirlwind, football/athletics whatever

An individual can decide to sell a race for a number of reasons... some could be perfectly acceptable on the moral point of view... maybe he needs money for his wife's life saving operation... we don't know why Kolobnev sold LBL 2010 if he did...

When an organisation bribes another or accepts bribes, that's a different story: it is called organised crime, it's in the same league as mafia... in practice there is no difference between FIFA's behaviour and that of organised crime, which is the reason why the FBI got involved.

rick_chasey

mrushton wrote:

Can't see the difference between cyclists 'selling' a race and this.

Really?

Think about it a bit more.

VTech

ugo.santalucia wrote:

mrushton wrote:

Can't see the difference between cyclists 'selling' a race and this. Cycling really is a microcosm for a lot of sport. Well they can reap the whirlwind, football/athletics whatever

An individual can decide to sell a race for a number of reasons... some could be perfectly acceptable on the moral point of view... maybe he needs money for his wife's life saving operation... we don't know why Kolobnev sold LBL 2010 if he did...

When an organisation bribes another or accepts bribes, that's a different story: it is called organised crime, it's in the same league as mafia... in practice there is no difference between FIFA's behaviour and that of organised crime, which is the reason why the FBI got involved.

So hard to prove.
I honestly do not see anyone ever being charged with this as it is unprovable.
The issues will be from allowing countries to participate in a competition when the result was fixed. This is important because it means that the countries that have won will in fact not be guilty of law breaking and so should keep the games they have won (in the eyes of the law).

ugo.santalucia

VTech wrote:

So hard to prove.
I honestly do not see anyone ever being charged with this as it is unprovable.
The issues will be from allowing countries to participate in a competition when the result was fixed. This is important because it means that the countries that have won will in fact not be guilty of law breaking and so should keep the games they have won (in the eyes of the law).

It is a case of "should I trust the FBI or should I listen to a guy on a forum?" I am pretty sure they have done their homework and if they couldn't press charges, they wouldn't bother with the investigations

VTech

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

So hard to prove.
I honestly do not see anyone ever being charged with this as it is unprovable.
The issues will be from allowing countries to participate in a competition when the result was fixed. This is important because it means that the countries that have won will in fact not be guilty of law breaking and so should keep the games they have won (in the eyes of the law).

It is a case of "should I trust the FBI or should I listen to a guy on a forum?" I am pretty sure they have done their homework and if they couldn't press charges, they wouldn't bother with the investigations

It is not illegal to accept gifts as long as thats the ruling of the company, in this case FIFA.
That is law, the same in the UK as it is in the USA.
The laws broken are not about taking gifts or money, its about others in the race not having a fair chance.

Please also understand, the UK FA also paid money and gave gifts so they are all guilty.
In most walks of life it is not allowed because it ends like it has here but the rules are the rules and people used them for personal advantage.

ugo.santalucia

VTech wrote:

It is not illegal to accept gifts as long as thats the ruling of the company, in this case FIFA.
That is law, the same in the UK as it is in the USA.
The laws broken are not about taking gifts or money, its about others in the race not having a fair chance.

Please also understand, the UK FA also paid money and gave gifts so they are all guilty.
In most walks of life it is not allowed because it ends like it has here but the rules are the rules and people used them for personal advantage.

As I said, I am pretty sure they have lawyers in FBI who know everything there is to know and know how much we should be allowed to know about what is really going on ... you always come across as the one who knows the hidden truth, but the reality is that in this case (as well as others) I am afraid you don't... are you an expert in organised crime and international law? No, you tune cars, so leave law to the lawyers, I'd say...
When you speak about formula one cars I am inclined to think you know what you talk about...

chris_bass

VTech wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

So hard to prove.
I honestly do not see anyone ever being charged with this as it is unprovable.
The issues will be from allowing countries to participate in a competition when the result was fixed. This is important because it means that the countries that have won will in fact not be guilty of law breaking and so should keep the games they have won (in the eyes of the law).

It is a case of "should I trust the FBI or should I listen to a guy on a forum?" I am pretty sure they have done their homework and if they couldn't press charges, they wouldn't bother with the investigations

It is not illegal to accept gifts as long as thats the ruling of the company, in this case FIFA.
That is law, the same in the UK as it is in the USA.
The laws broken are not about taking gifts or money, its about others in the race not having a fair chance.

Please also understand, the UK FA also paid money and gave gifts so they are all guilty.
In most walks of life it is not allowed because it ends like it has here but the rules are the rules and people used them for personal advantage.

I don't know if that is always true, I used to work in the financial sector and you were not allowed to accept any gifts from any other company. If anyone received a gift, be it a hamper or a few bottles of wine or anything, it had to be raffled off.

VTech

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

It is not illegal to accept gifts as long as thats the ruling of the company, in this case FIFA.
That is law, the same in the UK as it is in the USA.
The laws broken are not about taking gifts or money, its about others in the race not having a fair chance.

Please also understand, the UK FA also paid money and gave gifts so they are all guilty.
In most walks of life it is not allowed because it ends like it has here but the rules are the rules and people used them for personal advantage.

As I said, I am pretty sure they have lawyers in FBI who know everything there is to know and know how much we should be allowed to know about what is really going on ... you always come across as the one who knows the hidden truth, but the reality is that in this case (as well as others) I am afraid you don't... are you an expert in organised crime and international law? No, you tune cars, so leave law to the lawyers, I'd say...
When you speak about formula one cars I am inclined to think you know what you talk about...

Weird reply, very weird.

I have never professed to know the law and of course, would never argue that I know more than the FBI but facts still remain facts and people here (judging on replies I've read) seem to think that FIFA have broken the law by accepting bribes and I have simply cleared that up for them. I have posted explaining why, above.
Just because a certain group are involved (in this case the FBI) doesnt mean they can make up their own laws. As a business owner I know rules regarding gifts to suppliers and dealers and what is/isnt allowed.

VTech

Chris Bass wrote:

VTech wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

So hard to prove.
I honestly do not see anyone ever being charged with this as it is unprovable.
The issues will be from allowing countries to participate in a competition when the result was fixed. This is important because it means that the countries that have won will in fact not be guilty of law breaking and so should keep the games they have won (in the eyes of the law).

It is a case of "should I trust the FBI or should I listen to a guy on a forum?" I am pretty sure they have done their homework and if they couldn't press charges, they wouldn't bother with the investigations

It is not illegal to accept gifts as long as thats the ruling of the company, in this case FIFA.
That is law, the same in the UK as it is in the USA.
The laws broken are not about taking gifts or money, its about others in the race not having a fair chance.

Please also understand, the UK FA also paid money and gave gifts so they are all guilty.
In most walks of life it is not allowed because it ends like it has here but the rules are the rules and people used them for personal advantage.

I don't know if that is always true, I used to work in the financial sector and you were not allowed to accept any gifts from any other company. If anyone received a gift, be it a hamper or a few bottles of wine or anything, it had to be raffled off.

Thats the rule of the company though and not a law.
Most companies take that stance because they want to remain impartial and it makes good business sense.
The fact that FIFA didn't take this approach only comes from the fact that they are corrupt. No one is denying that.

chris_bass

VTech wrote:

Thats the rule of the company though and not a law.
Most companies take that stance because they want to remain impartial and it makes good business sense.
The fact that FIFA didn't take this approach only comes from the fact that they are corrupt. No one is denying that.

no, I'm pretty sure that is the law in the finance sector, it isn't just a company policy.

ugo.santalucia

VTech wrote:

Weird reply, very weird.

It's not weird VTech... you do tend to come across as the one who knows it all in areas where you know nothing about, from FIFA to Jeremy Clarkson's relationship with the BBC.
What's your business got to do with FIFA? FIFA is not even a business...

And who said the investigation is on bribes and not other potentially worse offences like money laundering? I would say at this stage we know very little and the reason we know very little is because it's all speculations until there is an official document released

VTech

Chris Bass wrote:

VTech wrote:

Thats the rule of the company though and not a law.
Most companies take that stance because they want to remain impartial and it makes good business sense.
The fact that FIFA didn't take this approach only comes from the fact that they are corrupt. No one is denying that.

no, I'm pretty sure that is the law in the finance sector, it isn't just a company policy.

Im afraid not, there is the anti bribery act 2010 but specifies only in accordance with bribery.
it is not illegal to accept gifts, if it were, we would not legally be able to tip a waitress/waiter at a restaurant and we know that legally you must pay tax on tips.

It is a grey area because what is a tip/bribe/gift ?

orraloon

VTech wrote:

Thats the rule of the company though and not a law.
Most companies take that stance because they want to remain impartial and it makes good business sense.
The fact that FIFA didn't take this approach only comes from the fact that they are corrupt. No one is denying that.

Agree with you on this. Depends on the ethical standards of the company or organisation. FIFA is a self serving collection of people interested in maximising personal gain, be that monetary or perceived power.

Most commercial entities have higher ethical standards. Which can bite sometimes. E.g. For first time this year my missus and I were offered a hospitality day at a TdF stage by supplier company. Cannot accept such gift as there is commercial supply tender in progress so she is not allowed by company policy to accept such in case it might be seen as influencing decision. Nor indeed would her personal standards allow her to accept in these circumstances.

As the vernacular would have it, gutted. Don't want to know which stages they were offering, just have to sulk about what might have been.

See FIFA, that's how the real world works.

VTech

orraloon wrote:

VTech wrote:

Thats the rule of the company though and not a law.
Most companies take that stance because they want to remain impartial and it makes good business sense.
The fact that FIFA didn't take this approach only comes from the fact that they are corrupt. No one is denying that.

Agree with you on this. Depends on the ethical standards of the company or organisation. FIFA is a self serving collection of people interested in maximising personal gain, be that monetary or perceived power.

Most commercial entities have higher ethical standards. Which can bite sometimes. E.g. For first time this year my missus and I were offered a hospitality day at a TdF stage by supplier company. Cannot accept such gift as there is commercial supply tender in progress so she is not allowed by company policy to accept such in case it might be seen as influencing decision. Nor indeed would her personal standards allow her to accept in these circumstances.

As the vernacular would have it, gutted. Don't want to know which stages they were offering, just have to sulk about what might have been.

See FIFA, that's how the real world works.

It can be daft at times but I do think there is a place for gifts but during a contract talks maybe that is close to the wind

Ive taken this from the "working rights" website which refers to laws in business:

"Every worker should find out his or her employer’s attitude to receiving gifts from clients. It’s unwise to assume that accepting a gift is a normal part of the relationship with a client. The recipient can be open to charges of corruption and bribery, no matter how absurd this may seem.

Most organisations recognise this problem. They have a policy in place that discusses the acceptance of gifts, benefits and hospitality. Furthermore, anyone who reads such a policy soon discovers that gift giving and acceptance is not always a simple issue. Rarely will an organisation ban the acceptance of all gifts outright.

Promotional Gifts
Promotional gifts are common in business. They include pens, diaries, calendars, key rings and computer mouse mats. The value of these gifts is usually under £10 each. As a result, many organisations let workers keep them. When the gifts are bottles of wine and boxes of chocolates, some employers run in-house raffles. The money raised goes to charity.
Hospitality
An organisation must have a clear approach to hospitality. Normally, a worker can accept lunch from a client on two assumptions. The first is that the lunch is an opportunity to talk about business. The second is that at some stage, the worker reciprocates and offers to buy the client a meal.


Business lunches and dinners are often a matter of course. The workers who accept them usually have expense accounts to return clients’ hospitality. What matters is that an organisation has written this arrangement into its policy.

Causing Offence
Refusing a gift may cause offence. A worker who does business around the world needs to be aware that other cultures may view the giving and acceptance of gifts as an essential courtesy. Employers should include such scenarios in their gift policies. The usual approach is to accept a client’s gift and notify a manager.
Charities, councils and government agencies generally advise workers never to accept gifts from grateful members of the public. Again, this attitude may cause offence. Gift policies should make the point that it may be best to take a gift and register acceptance with a supervisor or manager.

Influence
A gift policy must include a warning about influence. If workers receive a gift, they must make it clear to the giver, if necessary, that acceptance will not influence a decision. Workers should be polite and thank the giver. They must never give the impression, even in jest, that gifts lead to favours.
Income Tax
A cash gift from a client is subject to income tax. Other gifts are not taxable unless a gift is worth more than £250 in any year. The latter may apply when the gift is not a one-off. It may be a season ticket at a sports venue, for example. Each visit to the venue may be worth less than £250 but the total value over the course of a year may exceed this. If so, the recipient should declare the gift to HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC).
HMRC assesses a cash equivalent value for all declared gifts. When a gift recipient disagrees with a valuation, he or she must supply evidence of the true value."


As I said above and you as well, accepting gifts isn't illegal, maybe morally wrong at times, maybe downright crazy but not illegal.

slowmart

The FACTS are the FBI investigation is centred around bribery, fraud and money laundering and the subsequent awarding of media and marketing rights. The sum involved has been estimated at $150 million.

The FBI had turned a FIFA exec member who wore a wire to FIFA meetings and the investigation has been ongoing now for three years.

FOUR guilty please have already been made in relation to this case.

Add racketeering to the charge sheet which carries a potential 20 year sentence and the world wide reach of US law enforcement agencies means these guys will do anything to save their own skin so expect similar breaking news stories and a raft of self serving deals to save their own skins.

Follow the whiff of corruption wherever it goes and if that means kicking in the doors of the FA, so be it.


Just like Saville, too many people looking the other way and not wanting to rock the boat.

harry-s

It's about more than just bribes and gifts though, it's corruption on many levels.
Re my example of the 'jungle' stadia above.
Billy Bigballs, the FIFA representative for a certain region, obtains funds from FIFA to build a new stadium or improve existing facilities, usually after convincing the board at FIFA that this particular region needs assistance to develop the football infrastructure. Maybe it's 'emergent'.
Lets say he gets authorisation of $100m. Using his local contacts he awards the construction project to Acme Construction. The behind doors agreement may be along the lines of: Acme construction will build it for $40m, their bill to FIFA will be for the agreed tender price, say $100m, and once the bill is settled, Acme will deposit $50m in Billy's offshore account. Everyone's a winner...
I know of a particular FIFA official who wanted a new national flag for the national stadium flagpole. The bill was $1m. That's a lot for a flag, - but when you talk to the locals, they raise their eyes to sky and say 'well, that's Billy for you...', or words to that effect.
It's got to end, and the encouraging thing about the US and the FBI getting involved, is that there are financial concerns and legal incentives, it's not just moral indignation, which has been about the sum of things so far.

laurentian

Harry-S wrote:

It's about more than just bribes and gifts though, it's corruption on many levels.
Re my example of the 'jungle' stadia above.
Billy Bigballs, the FIFA representative for a certain region, obtains funds from FIFA to build a new stadium or improve existing facilities, usually after convincing the board at FIFA that this particular region needs assistance to develop the football infrastructure. Maybe it's 'emergent'.
Lets say he gets authorisation of $100m. Using his local contacts he awards the construction project to Acme Construction. The behind doors agreement may be along the lines of: Acme construction will build it for $40m, their bill to FIFA will be for the agreed tender price, say $100m, and once the bill is settled, Acme will deposit $50m in Billy's offshore account. Everyone's a winner...
I know of a particular FIFA official who wanted a new national flag for the national stadium flagpole. The bill was $1m. That's a lot for a flag, - but when you talk to the locals, they raise their eyes to sky and say 'well, that's Billy for you...', or words to that effect.
It's got to end, and the encouraging thing about the US and the FBI getting involved, is that there are financial concerns and legal incentives, it's not just moral indignation, which has been about the sum of things so far.

That's pretty much how I understand some of it would have happened with the additional step of Mr B.Balls also paying some of the £50m from his offshore account into that of the person at FIFA HQ that agreed to the initial grant/funding.

ai_1

VTech wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

VTech wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

So hard to prove.
I honestly do not see anyone ever being charged with this as it is unprovable.
The issues will be from allowing countries to participate in a competition when the result was fixed. This is important because it means that the countries that have won will in fact not be guilty of law breaking and so should keep the games they have won (in the eyes of the law).

It is a case of "should I trust the FBI or should I listen to a guy on a forum?" I am pretty sure they have done their homework and if they couldn't press charges, they wouldn't bother with the investigations

It is not illegal to accept gifts as long as thats the ruling of the company, in this case FIFA.
That is law, the same in the UK as it is in the USA.
The laws broken are not about taking gifts or money, its about others in the race not having a fair chance.

Please also understand, the UK FA also paid money and gave gifts so they are all guilty.
In most walks of life it is not allowed because it ends like it has here but the rules are the rules and people used them for personal advantage.

I don't know if that is always true, I used to work in the financial sector and you were not allowed to accept any gifts from any other company. If anyone received a gift, be it a hamper or a few bottles of wine or anything, it had to be raffled off.

Thats the rule of the company though and not a law.
Most companies take that stance because they want to remain impartial and it makes good business sense.
The fact that FIFA didn't take this approach only comes from the fact that they are corrupt. No one is denying that.

They do that because doing otherwise leaves them open to accusations of fraud.
Fraud is illegal. Company rules may (or may not) shift liability from the employee to the company or vice versa but they do not somehow immunise the company from the fact that fraud is illegal.
Making business decisions involving parties who have provided bribes or "gifts" is a conflict of interests. If those decisions are influenced by those "gifts" that is unethical but also, if I'm not mistaken, illegal. It is fraud is it not? I'm not entirely sure how black and white it is but I'm pretty sure VTech's version is wrong.

VTech

Ai_1 wrote:

VTech wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

VTech wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

So hard to prove.
I honestly do not see anyone ever being charged with this as it is unprovable.
The issues will be from allowing countries to participate in a competition when the result was fixed. This is important because it means that the countries that have won will in fact not be guilty of law breaking and so should keep the games they have won (in the eyes of the law).

It is a case of "should I trust the FBI or should I listen to a guy on a forum?" I am pretty sure they have done their homework and if they couldn't press charges, they wouldn't bother with the investigations

It is not illegal to accept gifts as long as thats the ruling of the company, in this case FIFA.
That is law, the same in the UK as it is in the USA.
The laws broken are not about taking gifts or money, its about others in the race not having a fair chance.

Please also understand, the UK FA also paid money and gave gifts so they are all guilty.
In most walks of life it is not allowed because it ends like it has here but the rules are the rules and people used them for personal advantage.

I don't know if that is always true, I used to work in the financial sector and you were not allowed to accept any gifts from any other company. If anyone received a gift, be it a hamper or a few bottles of wine or anything, it had to be raffled off.

Thats the rule of the company though and not a law.
Most companies take that stance because they want to remain impartial and it makes good business sense.
The fact that FIFA didn't take this approach only comes from the fact that they are corrupt. No one is denying that.

They do that because doing otherwise leaves them open to accusations of fraud.
Fraud is illegal. Company rules may (or may not) shift liability from the employee to the company or vice versa but they do not somehow immunise the company from the fact that fraud is illegal.
Making business decisions involving parties who have provided bribes or "gifts" is a conflict of interests. If those decisions are influenced by those "gifts" that is unethical but also, if I'm not mistaken, illegal. It is fraud is it not? I'm not entirely sure how black and white it is but I'm pretty sure VTech's version is wrong.

Have faith that my version is correct, I took the quote above and did some google research and yes, you are allowed to take gifts. one of the businesses where it is frowned upon in entirety is the financial and legal sector but even then, its not guaranteed.
To rule that someone can't take a gift would make tips illegal and america runs of this way of life, companies have even been known to make up staff wages from tips.

I am not pro FIFA btw, I think they are crooks. All I have said is that I doubt anyone will get prosecuted for taking a gift and I doubt any country will get done for giving a gift.
The people who will get done will be those the FBI find have promised a security against a "gift" because this then becomes bribery and that is illegal.

ai_1

VTech wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

VTech wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

VTech wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

So hard to prove.
I honestly do not see anyone ever being charged with this as it is unprovable.
The issues will be from allowing countries to participate in a competition when the result was fixed. This is important because it means that the countries that have won will in fact not be guilty of law breaking and so should keep the games they have won (in the eyes of the law).

It is a case of "should I trust the FBI or should I listen to a guy on a forum?" I am pretty sure they have done their homework and if they couldn't press charges, they wouldn't bother with the investigations

It is not illegal to accept gifts as long as thats the ruling of the company, in this case FIFA.
That is law, the same in the UK as it is in the USA.
The laws broken are not about taking gifts or money, its about others in the race not having a fair chance.

Please also understand, the UK FA also paid money and gave gifts so they are all guilty.
In most walks of life it is not allowed because it ends like it has here but the rules are the rules and people used them for personal advantage.

I don't know if that is always true, I used to work in the financial sector and you were not allowed to accept any gifts from any other company. If anyone received a gift, be it a hamper or a few bottles of wine or anything, it had to be raffled off.

Thats the rule of the company though and not a law.
Most companies take that stance because they want to remain impartial and it makes good business sense.
The fact that FIFA didn't take this approach only comes from the fact that they are corrupt. No one is denying that.

They do that because doing otherwise leaves them open to accusations of fraud.
Fraud is illegal. Company rules may (or may not) shift liability from the employee to the company or vice versa but they do not somehow immunise the company from the fact that fraud is illegal.
Making business decisions involving parties who have provided bribes or "gifts" is a conflict of interests. If those decisions are influenced by those "gifts" that is unethical but also, if I'm not mistaken, illegal. It is fraud is it not? I'm not entirely sure how black and white it is but I'm pretty sure VTech's version is wrong.

Have faith that my version is correct, I took the quote above and did some google research and yes, you are allowed to take gifts. one of the businesses where it is frowned upon in entirety is the financial and legal sector but even then, its not guaranteed.
To rule that someone can't take a gift would make tips illegal and america runs of this way of life, companies have even been known to make up staff wages from tips.

I am not pro FIFA btw, I think they are crooks. All I have said is that I doubt anyone will get prosecuted for taking a gift and I doubt any country will get done for giving a gift.
The people who will get done will be those the FBI find have promised a security against a "gift" because this then becomes bribery and that is illegal.

My work in the pharmaceutical manufacturing industry where it is also a massive no-no. However I'm not a legal expert as I think I made clear. The ethical issue is clear, the law is trickier.

VTech

Ai_1 wrote:

VTech wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

VTech wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

VTech wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

I am not pro FIFA btw, I think they are crooks. All I have said is that I doubt anyone will get prosecuted for taking a gift and I doubt any country will get done for giving a gift.
The people who will get done will be those the FBI find have promised a security against a "gift" because this then becomes bribery and that is illegal.

My work in the pharmaceutical manufacturing industry where it is also a massive no-no. However I'm not a legal expert as I think I made clear. The ethical issue is clear, the law is trickier.

My sister started her medical career as a receptionist to a doctor in Birmingham.
He was chinese and in the years she worked there, he never once paid for flights home which were often.
He was always offered gifts from drugs companies to prescribe their particular brands.

True story, I think I've mentioned it in the past on this forum.
It happens.

Anonymous

Obviously happens. Only place I know for a fact it is prohibited is by the ICAEW and in accounting. Maximum gift values are prescribed quite clearly.

One guy was gifted a rolls Royce by the owner and didn't want to reject it in case of offending the client. Had to pay the same value to the firm. Nearly bankrupt the bastard!

vinnymarsden

Re tips/gifts etc..

There are tips, given as a gesture of appreciation for something well done…i.e. waiting on in a restaurant, getting you a good deal on something..i got a nice deal on a new car, and the sales guy did really work hard to make the deal, so I bought him a bottle of wine when i picked up the car…a token, nothing more of my thanks for what he had done.
HOWEVER, when you are talking about vast sums of money being given to secure votes and other pecuniary advantages then i think you are in a totally different ball game.Without wishing to expose myself to slander laws etc I think its quite safe to say some of FIFA's dealings have been shall we say not all transparent/above the waterline.I also accept that in some parts of the world, a "bung" for want of a better word is a totally acceptable way to do business, but, not at that level! FIFA exists to promote world football/unity, and I would guess that all the execs etc are paid quite handsomely for their work, but the sad sorry truth is…once you've taken one not so clean payment, the people paying/getting the benefit of it have you in their pocket, and the train just runs out of control. Mr Blatter probably didn't set out to turn FIFA into the mess it now appears to be, but when you see a sport totally awash with money, and the further income that hosting events can generate, not only for football alone, but as far reaching as a nations financial structures then you see how this has become the real hornets nest it is destined to become! I personally feel there will NEED to be a point where the FBI and other agencies who no doubt become involved will have to stop stirring the nest, its all well and good knowing that FIFA is broken, but for stability of the sport as a whole someone needs to understand when the investigation has achieved its initial parameters, because it will, if not governed properly end up like the witch hunt STILL going on in world cycling…no end to accusations/allegations, and very little after the initial shock/outrage to back up claims made, other than leaving a really bad cloud over everyone.

ai_1

VTech wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

VTech wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

VTech wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

VTech wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

I am not pro FIFA btw, I think they are crooks. All I have said is that I doubt anyone will get prosecuted for taking a gift and I doubt any country will get done for giving a gift.
The people who will get done will be those the FBI find have promised a security against a "gift" because this then becomes bribery and that is illegal.

My work in the pharmaceutical manufacturing industry where it is also a massive no-no. However I'm not a legal expert as I think I made clear. The ethical issue is clear, the law is trickier.

My sister started her medical career as a receptionist to a doctor in Birmingham.
He was chinese and in the years she worked there, he never once paid for flights home which were often.
He was always offered gifts from drugs companies to prescribe their particular brands.

True story, I think I've mentioned it in the past on this forum.
It happens.

Pharmaceutical sales and medical practices are completely a different environment to pharmaceutical manufacturing which is what I mentioned.

VTech

Ai_1 wrote:

VTech wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

VTech wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

VTech wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

VTech wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

I am not pro FIFA btw, I think they are crooks. All I have said is that I doubt anyone will get prosecuted for taking a gift and I doubt any country will get done for giving a gift.
The people who will get done will be those the FBI find have promised a security against a "gift" because this then becomes bribery and that is illegal.

My work in the pharmaceutical manufacturing industry where it is also a massive no-no. However I'm not a legal expert as I think I made clear. The ethical issue is clear, the law is trickier.

My sister started her medical career as a receptionist to a doctor in Birmingham.
He was chinese and in the years she worked there, he never once paid for flights home which were often.
He was always offered gifts from drugs companies to prescribe their particular brands.

True story, I think I've mentioned it in the past on this forum.
It happens.

Pharmaceutical sales and medical practices are completely a different environment to pharmaceutical manufacturing which is what I mentioned.

My point is that there is a huge difference between ethics and law.
Law = NO.
ethics = You shouldn't as its frowned upon.

Lets be honest here, ethics would dictate that corporate pay correct taxation as small businesses do, that isn't the case. There are countless arguments but reality is that in this case, fifa delegates who have accepted gifts have broken no laws.
It has been argued here that they have and thats wrong.
They have acted outside the box of ethics but I'm yet to find anyone in jail for that.

Those that end up in jail will be the ones who the FBI and other organisations can prove too gifts in exchange for guaranteed votes. Thats bribery which is illegal.

tangled_metal

I thought the whole FBI angle is about the money being transferred through U.S. banks or it's in U.S. dollars. There is something in U.S. federal law about the use of US dollars or moving the money through U.S. bank's wire service to pay bribes being illegal. That was in the news at the beginning IIRC. If you like it's not going for bribery so much as the fact it was done in dollars or through a US bank. That law was from the early 1970s. The UK has a similar kind of law dating from 1996 IIRC. Basically these are anti-bribery laws. They are interesting because they allow for US or UK prosecution for activities done anywhere. No expert just an avid news junkie and it was talked about on a news programme somewhere.

One other v thing, Jack b Warner was in the news again. Apparently some news programme is showing documents that show where $10m went. Thousands of dollars paid out in cash against his credit card, from FIFA I think they said. Nearly 4 million was paid to a Caribbean supermarket chain which then paid him out the money in local currency. This was out of the $10m from south Africa. If this is true I reckon he's in trouble. If he gets nailed I reckon it will get back to the top. He's already threatening to spill the beans.

mamba80

the fifa scandal is about multi million dollar corruption, as mentioned the $10m to Trinidad from S Africa, where ALL of it ended up in warners pockets and now a fifa delegate recorded as saying Morocco won the WC bid but it was awarded to SA as they "paid more" so not only has jack got a few questions to answer, SA also needs to explain why it paid this money with zero checks on how it was spent? or they didnt care as it was a bribe pure and simple.

pblakeney

Anyone seen Sepp's latest admission, sorry, defence?
The World Cup was always going to Russia. And this was before the vote.

He still thinks he is in the right. :shock:
Alzheimer's?

orraloon

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19731686#p19731686]PBlakeney[/url] wrote:

Alzheimer's?

F---wit?

pblakeney

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19731930#p19731930]orraloon[/url] wrote:

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19731686#p19731686]PBlakeney[/url] wrote:

Alzheimer's?

F---wit?

Rich F---wit so not totally stupid.