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BREXIT 2020 - Bye Bye Brussels. It's Been a Blast.🇬🇧

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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 17,761
    edited September 2019
    ballysmate wrote:
    The value of anything on the market, be it an item for sale or a skill set is set by the buyer. The value is whatever the buyer is willing to pay.

    In the instance of City pay, maybe, but that's a bit simplistic. Where the market is limited it all falls apart.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 10,330
    Rolf F wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    why you want brexit, not why you don't want remain; that doesn't serve any useful purpose at all.

    Isn't one of the reasons the remain campaign lost that it failed to put forward any reasons for remaining other than not liking Brexit?

    The reasons for remaining were that it things were pretty good as they were; it worked, it wasn't perfect but we were working to make it work. Leave was all "leave and there'll be loads of money for everything and making Britain great again and blue passports etc". Grass greener on the other side arguments. It mostly isn't in reality but they sound much more exciting than "lets keep things as they are".

    There were and are large numbers of reasons why we should remain and I think they still apply.

    I think the debate has been done over the last three years, but I don't think your response is much different to the poster you were challenging. You could name lots of positives of remaining, but you haven't. You probably haven't done so because you are bored of the discussion which is fair enough, but I don't think you can expect others on the other side of the debate to have endless enthusiasm to list their reasons either.

    The freedom for British people to live and work throughout Europe and vice versa
    The stability of EU regulations that don't have to be thrown away every five years to help a new incompetent Government into power
    Carefully thought out standards eg for food that keep us protected from eg censored from the US.
    Common standards that we work with Europe to agree and adhere to ensuring things work across Europe
    Free health care in Europe when we travel
    An influence greater than we would have on our own.
    As a European, being a part of Europe!
    The support our further education system gets from foreign students without whom many courses would not be viable.
    Security
    Human rights

    This is just some stuff that comes to mind. Over to you. To be honest though, what I've listed has been frequently stated before. I still don't know what the Brexiters want. Aside from Blue Passports. Which they could have had anyway.

    Come on then BigBean. You picked at me for not naming some of my positives so I did. This is the point where you have a convenient opportunity to list all the benefits you expect to gain from Brexit and we can pick holes in each others ideas and maybe learn something from each other.

    Crikey - why would you even post on a Brexit thread if you believe that nobody can be bothered to explain their reasons for their vote anymore? What is the point of that? I'm not bored of the discussion - it's too important to be bored by (another distinction I think between Remainers who really do care about the EU and brexiters who deep down don't care either way and seem to live in this fantasy world where after 31st Oct they think that everyone will get back to talking about football and the weather and not Brexit endlessly for the next 30 years which is what will happen) - what kind of idiot would get bored by this subject? It's too important for that.

    You originally challenged john80. He then wrote the following.
    john80 wrote:

    Take one example of someone saying they would like to reduce immigration to the cost of say gdp as they value immigtation higher than gdp. It is perfectly valid for another person to say the reverse is most important as maybe they are indebted to their eyeballs doing a job highly affected by brexit. It is this complete lack of ability of others to see that the views of others may be different an then deride others views. Maybe the guy who wants less immigration is a hippy that cycles everywhere, works a low paid but valued job such as a nurse as has been priced out their childhood area and thinks a more sustainable economy is more important than 2% increase on gdp. All made up scenarios but done to try to illuminate that everyones drivers are different hence their views also differ.

    I think this is an important point which is frequently ignored as it is easier to dismiss anyone who voted for Brexit as a fool.

    What I find tedious though is the discussion that results from this. Usually the counter argument is the lump of labour fallacy. This is then countered by the BoE reported which demonstrates that the unskilled have suffered wage depression as a result of immigration. Then some clever bod comes along and points out that when the economy tanks there will be reduced demand for professions such as nannies, decorators and nurses. This is then countered by saying that it is true for some professions, but not all, and the final comeback is the dissatisfaction these people feel has nothing to do with the EU or immigration, and everything to do with austerity, so they are still fools for voting for Brexit.

    I have previously posted some advantages of Brexit, I could also post advantages of remaining. I pointed out last week that the UK could more easily hit its 2050 net zero target out of the EU, because it would be easier to offer state aid and easier to legislate against various things. All the talk is of low regulation, but one upside of Brexit is higher regulation and increasing standards. Take, for example, the FCA. It is a much higher standard of regulation than most of its EU counterparts, but yet all are currently judged to be equal.

    Overall my point was that instead of constantly bashing people who voted for Brexit and demanding reasons so that they can be put down, it would be much better to extol the virtues of the EU. You have now done that, so I didn't feel the need to respond. As it happens, I don't really agree with some of your points, but I thought disagreeing would be counter-productive. Plus you listed what I think is a really good thing about the EU
    Common standards that we work with Europe to agree and adhere to ensuring things work across Europe
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 10,330
    Rolf F wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Unless people are earning above £50k they are not a net contributor so should be thanking those nice City boys for paying their EU subs.

    Is that really correct? I don't earn £50k but then I don't have children and so far am not a burden on the NHS and I would tend to assume that I am a net contributor - my wage is significantly above average and median so it seemed a reasonable assumption.

    Of course, I'm not thanking those nice City boys - they are overpaid for what they do and I subsidise them in other ways so it all balances out. It's like saying that the small crownwheel in the automatic gearbox is contributing less than one of the pistons.

    I will try to find the article. Maybe it is deemed over a lifetime so paying for your own education and pension.

    Cheers - it does seem slightly unlikely; you'd sort of think that average pay ought to equal the threshold for becoming a net contributor (extremely simplistically). Of course, you need to look at lifetime average pay rather than current average pay as well. I suspect though that makes less difference than might be thought - we probably tend to over-estimate the degree to which our pay has risen in real terms.

    It has to be higher than average, because the levels of taxation are lower on the lower half of the average than the higher half.
  • Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Not sure when this was posted, but 'Corbyn to consider expressing some sort of opinion' is quite topical :)
    Apparently delegates have just voted not to back Remain in this, as yet, hypothetical 2nd referendum.

    Long live the fence!
    So Labour has voted to remain - on the bloody fence :D

    I did enjoy the irony when Labour rejected to become a remain party and the remoaners refusing to accept the result :lol:

    Leopards don't change their spots...
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 41,429
    ballysmate wrote:
    The value of anything on the market, be it an item for sale or a skill set is set by the buyer. The value is whatever the buyer is willing to pay.
    Market forces are often deemed not to be working when the people in question are getting paid a lot more than those claiming that market forces are not working :)
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 41,429
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Not sure when this was posted, but 'Corbyn to consider expressing some sort of opinion' is quite topical :)
    Apparently delegates have just voted not to back Remain in this, as yet, hypothetical 2nd referendum.

    Long live the fence!
    So Labour has voted to remain - on the bloody fence :D

    I did enjoy the irony when Labour rejected to become a remain party and the remoaners refusing to accept the result :lol:

    Leopards don't change their spots...
    Let's hope the pattern continues are there are years of acrimony and civil war in the Labour party :)
    Whippet
    Bruiser
    Panzer
    Commuter

    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • 11-0 verdict

    justiciable

    And........
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 8,587
    11-0 verdict

    justiciable

    And........
    source.gif
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 8,587
    edited September 2019
    I think it is critical that nobody from the government put forwards a positive argument for the prorogation, apparently due to fear of perjury.

    This is sounding quite bad for government so far.
  • UNLAWFUL
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • "Parliament has not been prorogued"
    Believe that a farther shore
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 49,336 Lives Here
    Unlawful. Government spanked pretty hard.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 8,587
    11-0 decision on both counts.

    This is some heavy sh*t.

    I am expecting some diabolical headlines from the Fail etc. :lol:
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 49,336 Lives Here
    I think this result is as far away from what the gov't wanted as was possible.
  • BJ to appeal to European court of justice.
  • In normal days instant resignation...
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • BJ to appeal to European court of justice.

    :lol::lol:
    You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.
  • BJ to appeal to European court of justice.

    Can't be appealed.
    This is the end of the road.
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • huge race to get back to parliament and pass a few antibrexit laws before BJ gets out of bed and flies home.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 49,336 Lives Here
    *muttering to myself* always bet on the banter outcome, ALWAYS
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 6,496
    Wasn't expecting this. Interesting times in which we live.
  • I imagine what will happen is that MPs will vote to put parliament into recess until after the Tory conference.
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • *muttering to myself* always bet on the banter outcome, ALWAYS


    I applied my sports rule (If *anything* can happen nothing will)

    Astounded
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • Dominic Casciani
    @BBCDomC
    ·
    3m
    TO BE CLEAR: The Supreme Court upheld the Court of Session in Edinburgh's judgment, which said that Boris Johnson has "an improper purpose" when he advised The Queen to prorogue Parliament for five weeks. That means the Scottish court's judgement that he misled The Queen STANDS.




    We're back into politics now
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 6,496
    Surely the lying xxxx has gone too far this time? When Betty has been dragged into it surely even the swivel eyes go.. wait a minute...?
  • Oh this is good
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 8,587
    So popular the FT liveblog has crashed.
    Dominic Casciani
    @BBCDomC
    ·
    3m
    TO BE CLEAR: The Supreme Court upheld the Court of Session in Edinburgh's judgment, which said that Boris Johnson has "an improper purpose" when he advised The Queen to prorogue Parliament for five weeks. That means the Scottish court's judgement that he misled The Queen STANDS.




    We're back into politics now
    I really struggle to see how anyone could argue that this wasn't the case TBH
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 8,587
    No immediate calls to lynch the Supreme Court on the Daily Mail front page.
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,487
    Will he stay or will he go?

    I know opposition parties always call for the resignation of the PM - usually over the silliest things ... it's a bit more serious than that though. Surely he should go - either on his own accord - or pushed - as a clear signal to all parties that you mess with these things at your peril.

    Has BJ's government won anything yet? Or is it all lose lose lose - in Parliament and court?
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 8,587
    Telegraph front page isn't looking very positive about Boris either - one of the leading articles is about how his approach to Ireland is doomed to fail.

    It will be interesting if all his support from the right wing papers dries up, he's running out of legs to stand on!
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