Boxing

turbotommy

I think you've misunderstood my post vtech.

If you read my previous posts you'll see I have a lot of respect for mayweather's ability, and personally really enjoy watching the way he gos about his business in the ring. I think what you've done, inadvertently perhaps, is to allude to what I was getting at in my last post...

The second part of your post just seems like a bit of a rant to be honest mate. Do I think maywether wants to show the world he's loaded just for the sake of it? If you follow maywether for any length of time you may just see how insecure he is... What has the amount of tax he pays or the amount of people he employs got anything to do with his legacy as a boxer?... And while you're giving maywether a character reference do you want to defend his conviction for battering his ex? Or did he do that just to get out of a TV deal...

On a side note I see you didn't respond to my bet regarding the clarkson saga. You think mayweather's a great businessman? What price would you give me he's broke within 10 years of hanging up his gloves?

VTech

TurboTommy wrote:

I think you've misunderstood my post vtech.

If you read my previous posts you'll see I have a lot of respect for mayweather's ability, and personally really enjoy watching the way he gos about his business in the ring. I think what you've done, inadvertently perhaps, is to allude to what I was getting at in my last post...

The second part of your post just seems like a bit of a rant to be honest mate. Do I think maywether wants to show the world he's loaded just for the sake of it? If you follow maywether for any length of time you may just see how insecure he is... What has the amount of tax he pays or the amount of people he employs got anything to do with his legacy as a boxer?... And while you're giving maywether a character reference do you want to defend his conviction for battering his ex? Or did he do that just to get out of a TV deal...

On a side note I see you didn't respond to my bet regarding the clarkson saga. You think mayweather's a great businessman? What price would you give me he's broke within 10 years of hanging up his gloves?

I am not a mayweather fan, I think the guy is a t055er, I don't agree with beating the cr4p out of your mrs and think he got away very lightly for his crime. I am only referring to his boxing ability and for that he is truly amazing.
I don't think he is insecure, He is surrounded by "yes men" but thats the same for all rich people in the limelight, I've seen it for years with various clients I have worked for, nothing changes.

I would give you 25:1 upto a maximum of £1000 that he won't be broke within 10 years of retirement, I'm happy to put up £25k against your £1k, we can both leave the money in an escrow account and the winner takes the money plus interest. I can transfer the cash first thing if you fancy it?

turbotommy

Haha! You are funny vtech. I mean that genuinely. But if you really have 25k you don't know what to do with can I suggest you do something better with it than stick it in escrow for 10 years with the potential for 1k profit plus interest and bragging rights on a forum!?

I don't need a d1ck swinging contest but betting on things is always easier than going back and fourth with people indefinently... If you accept the terms I offered on the clarkson bet I'd take both bets for a small wager even though I'm a dog, just for the sweat! If you really want to gamble it up with me then we can talk about something more interesting than trying to settle internet debates...

You do have some funny opinions. Sometimes the things you say seem very naive to me. if I knew you personally I'd probably feel more invested in continuing this to a conclusion but I find it hard to get my head around arguing with strangers over the Internet after a certain point...

rick_chasey

Pac man was injured anyway. Needs surgery on it now.

turbotommy

Rick Chasey wrote:

Pac man was injured anyway. Needs surgery on it now.

Seems like a tough spot. If he'd of backed out of the fight people would of said he was running scared. he fought injured but some people will think that's being used as an excuse for losing. He failed to report the injury correctly so now that apparently opens up the flood gates of legal wranglings... Doh!

ugo.santalucia

I think his injury is only of interest for the betting industry... someone who has lost big time might make a case...

that's what happens when sport mixes with big money...

turbotommy

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think his injury is only of interest for the betting industry... someone who has lost big time might make a case...

that's what happens when sport mixes with big money...

Meh, let's not forget this was staged in the states... The land of the rediculous litigation... When tickets are being sold for tens of thousands of dollars you're going to get some p1ssed off fans.

Ben6899

We need a 21st Century Iron Mike. Now that man could box.

laurentian

Ben6899 wrote:

We need a 21st Century Iron Mike. Now that man could box.

He was certainly effective! though not an "artist" in many people's eyes . . . still draws the crowds though

Paulie W

And to everyone's surprise Mayweather and Pac are now talking rematch because you know Pac was injured but an operation for Pac and a year away from fighting for both will mean they are both in tip-top condition to fight...

rick_chasey

laurentian wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

We need a 21st Century Iron Mike. Now that man could box.

He was certainly effective! though not an "artist" in many people's eyes . . . still draws the crowds though

Tyson up until his arrest (so up until his defeat of Spinks in 1991) is the most terrifying force I've ever seen in boxing.

Absolute animal. Head & upper body speed, unbelievably aggressive and heavy hitting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkeUikCuh6U

Ben6899

Rick Chasey wrote:

laurentian wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

We need a 21st Century Iron Mike. Now that man could box.

He was certainly effective! though not an "artist" in many people's eyes . . . still draws the crowds though

Tyson up until his arrest (so up until his defeat of Spinks in 1991) is the most terrifying force I've ever seen in boxing.

Absolute animal. Head & upper body speed, unbelievably aggressive and heavy hitting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkeUikCuh6U

He was the greatest. Not the most glamorous, but the greatest.

(2mins55 in that video... body/chin lightning 1-2. Blimey)

rick_chasey

Try 1:15 ducking the roundhouse followed by a cut that KOs the guy. All in about a second.

turbotommy

Rick Chasey wrote:

Try 1:15 ducking the roundhouse followed by a cut that KOs the guy. All in about a second.

Yeah that was beautiful. Tysons 'style' was ridiculous. It's a shame it was relatively short lived and proceeded by the most boring era in heavyweight history. Lennox Lewis' jab...

Paulie W

Ben6899 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

laurentian wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

We need a 21st Century Iron Mike. Now that man could box.

He was certainly effective! though not an "artist" in many people's eyes . . . still draws the crowds though

Tyson up until his arrest (so up until his defeat of Spinks in 1991) is the most terrifying force I've ever seen in boxing.

Absolute animal. Head & upper body speed, unbelievably aggressive and heavy hitting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkeUikCuh6U

He was the greatest. Not the most glamorous, but the greatest.

(2mins55 in that video... body/chin lightning 1-2. Blimey)

Greatest by what measure?! He had an amazing combination of hand and foot speed and power but he could be shut down - fighters like Smith, Tucker, Green and Ratliff were all able to do it in his absolute prime - and if he didnt steamroller you he ran out of ideas; and those who stood up to him - Holyfield, Douglas - got his measure and beat him. You can argue that the drugs, the women and his mental health diminished him at young age and that would be true but if you want to call someone the greatest they have to have more longevity and they cant unracel as a fighter in the way that Tyson did.

turbotommy

Paulie W wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

laurentian wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

We need a 21st Century Iron Mike. Now that man could box.

He was certainly effective! though not an "artist" in many people's eyes . . . still draws the crowds though

Tyson up until his arrest (so up until his defeat of Spinks in 1991) is the most terrifying force I've ever seen in boxing.

Absolute animal. Head & upper body speed, unbelievably aggressive and heavy hitting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkeUikCuh6U

He was the greatest. Not the most glamorous, but the greatest.

(2mins55 in that video... body/chin lightning 1-2. Blimey)

Greatest by what measure?! He had an amazing combination of hand and foot speed and power but he could be shut down - fighters like Smith, Tucker, Green and Ratliff were all able to do it in his absolute prime - and if he didnt steamroller you he ran out of ideas; and those who stood up to him - Holyfield, Douglas - got his measure and beat him. You can argue that the drugs, the women and his mental health diminished him at young age and that would be true but if you want to call someone the greatest they have to have more longevity and they cant unracel as a fighter in the way that Tyson did.

Pretty much this really.

Calling him the greatest compared to other fighters head to head, all time, is a bit of a stretch. But for pure entertainment value, I would consider him the greatest entertainer in the heavy weight division, in my life time. But to be fair that isn't really saying a great deal...

VTech

TurboTommy wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Try 1:15 ducking the roundhouse followed by a cut that KOs the guy. All in about a second.

Yeah that was beautiful. Tysons 'style' was ridiculous. It's a shame it was relatively short lived and proceeded by the most boring era in heavyweight history. Lennox Lewis' jab...

I thought you were a boxing guy ?
Lennox Lewis is almost certainly one of the greatest heavyweights in history.

I am a huge Tyson fan, I've been to his place several times and shared several evening talking about his past and he rates Lewis as one of the greatest. His ability to stay healthy and destroy opponents without suffering retaliation is astonishing.

VTech

Paulie W wrote:

Greatest by what measure?! He had an amazing combination of hand and foot speed and power but he could be shut down - fighters like Smith, Tucker, Green and Ratliff were all able to do it in his absolute prime - and if he didnt steamroller you he ran out of ideas; and those who stood up to him - Holyfield, Douglas - got his measure and beat him. You can argue that the drugs, the women and his mental health diminished him at young age and that would be true but if you want to call someone the greatest they have to have more longevity and they cant unracel as a fighter in the way that Tyson did.

I am not sure of anyone in the boxing game that would agree with this.
Tyson was untouchable until his setup in the rape charges, he was followed by yes men instead of real people like Cus. There was, were and are no other heavyweight fighters that could honestly suggest that they could beat him in their prime.

rick_chasey

Main thing with pre jail Tyson was when he was in the ring it didn't feel like a boxing fight - it just felt like a guy beating someone up.

Amount of times the ref had to physically pull him away having already knocked his opponent out, still trying to swing at the guy.

Terrifying.

VTech

Rick Chasey wrote:

Main thing with pre jail Tyson was when he was in the ring it didn't feel like a boxing fight - it just felt like a guy beating someone up.

Amount of times the ref had to physically pull him away having already knocked his opponent out, still trying to swing at the guy.

Terrifying.

Your right, and looking at the video above reminds you of just how badass he was.
Tyson was once asked who hit him the hardest, he replied Bruno.
I guess that says a lot, bruno had the most powerful punch ever measured yet due to his glass chin he never really had a chance to be amongst the best. You need to be ferocious and that doesn't come from training, upbringing plays a huge role in that.

Paulie W

VTech wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

Greatest by what measure?! He had an amazing combination of hand and foot speed and power but he could be shut down - fighters like Smith, Tucker, Green and Ratliff were all able to do it in his absolute prime - and if he didnt steamroller you he ran out of ideas; and those who stood up to him - Holyfield, Douglas - got his measure and beat him. You can argue that the drugs, the women and his mental health diminished him at young age and that would be true but if you want to call someone the greatest they have to have more longevity and they cant unracel as a fighter in the way that Tyson did.

I am not sure of anyone in the boxing game that would agree with this.
Tyson was untouchable until his setup in the rape charges, he was followed by yes men instead of real people like Cus. There was, were and are no other heavyweight fighters that could honestly suggest that they could beat him in their prime.

I think lots of people in the 'boxing game' would agree with me and innumerable respected boxing journalists and ex-fighters are on record as saying so (as opposed to a couple of people you hang out with) . He lost his title some time before the rape charge but dont, as ever, let facts get in your way. There are plenty of heavys who could 'honestly suggest' they could beat prime Tyson (and do you know what Tyson himself has named some of them).

Paulie W

Rick Chasey wrote:

Main thing with pre jail Tyson was when he was in the ring it didn't feel like a boxing fight - it just felt like a guy beating someone up.

Amount of times the ref had to physically pull him away having already knocked his opponent out, still trying to swing at the guy.

Terrifying.

Here's pre-jail Tyson at his terrifying best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r98snTvjrvA

I think Tyson was a great fighter but those who eulogise him tend not to have seen many fights.

VTech

Paulie W wrote:

VTech wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

Greatest by what measure?! He had an amazing combination of hand and foot speed and power but he could be shut down - fighters like Smith, Tucker, Green and Ratliff were all able to do it in his absolute prime - and if he didnt steamroller you he ran out of ideas; and those who stood up to him - Holyfield, Douglas - got his measure and beat him. You can argue that the drugs, the women and his mental health diminished him at young age and that would be true but if you want to call someone the greatest they have to have more longevity and they cant unracel as a fighter in the way that Tyson did.

I am not sure of anyone in the boxing game that would agree with this.
Tyson was untouchable until his setup in the rape charges, he was followed by yes men instead of real people like Cus. There was, were and are no other heavyweight fighters that could honestly suggest that they could beat him in their prime.

I think lots of people in the 'boxing game' would agree with me and innumerable respected boxing journalists and ex-fighters are on record as saying so (as opposed to a couple of people you hang out with) . He lost his title some time before the rape charge but dont, as ever, let facts get in your way. There are plenty of heavys who could 'honestly suggest' they could beat prime Tyson (and do you know what Tyson himself has named some of them).

Tyson has not to my knowledge ever said he is the best other than when he was fighting.
I would love to know which fighters you thought could beat tyson when both they and he were in their prime.

VTech

Paulie W wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Main thing with pre jail Tyson was when he was in the ring it didn't feel like a boxing fight - it just felt like a guy beating someone up.

Amount of times the ref had to physically pull him away having already knocked his opponent out, still trying to swing at the guy.

Terrifying.

Here's pre-jail Tyson at his terrifying best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r98snTvjrvA

I think Tyson was a great fighter but those who eulogise him tend not to have seen many fights.

People like you make me laugh, claiming facts and yet posting a video clip whilst at the same time suggesting he was at his best. Your post is an attempt at deception because as you rightly know, he wasn't at his best at this time, far from it. His corner team didn't even have an enswell during the fight, his wife had publicly embarrassed him on national tv, he had not been training anything like that which he had done since starting as a pro and Don King had him attend promotional functions and parties instead of focusing on the fight.
Stories have been spread about the only man backing Buster being Mr King himself so I don't accept your statement, its wrong.

Paulie W

VTech wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

VTech wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

Greatest by what measure?! He had an amazing combination of hand and foot speed and power but he could be shut down - fighters like Smith, Tucker, Green and Ratliff were all able to do it in his absolute prime - and if he didnt steamroller you he ran out of ideas; and those who stood up to him - Holyfield, Douglas - got his measure and beat him. You can argue that the drugs, the women and his mental health diminished him at young age and that would be true but if you want to call someone the greatest they have to have more longevity and they cant unracel as a fighter in the way that Tyson did.

I am not sure of anyone in the boxing game that would agree with this.
Tyson was untouchable until his setup in the rape charges, he was followed by yes men instead of real people like Cus. There was, were and are no other heavyweight fighters that could honestly suggest that they could beat him in their prime.

I think lots of people in the 'boxing game' would agree with me and innumerable respected boxing journalists and ex-fighters are on record as saying so (as opposed to a couple of people you hang out with) . He lost his title some time before the rape charge but dont, as ever, let facts get in your way. There are plenty of heavys who could 'honestly suggest' they could beat prime Tyson (and do you know what Tyson himself has named some of them).

Tyson has not to my knowledge ever said he is the best other than when he was fighting.
I would love to know which fighters you thought could beat tyson when both they and he were in their prime.

No problem. IMO 60s Ali would have shut him down and outpointed a tiring Tyson handily, 70s Ali would have taken a terrible beating early on but over 15 rounds if not 12 would have found a way to win; I think Tyson is knocked out by George Foreman in a hell of a slugfest (less we forget people used to talk about Big George in the way they talked about Tyson in his prime - I'd put his destruction of Frazier and Norton above anything I saw Tyson do); I can see Tyson knocking out Joe Louis but I more clearly see Louis catching Tyson with that destructive right cross and stopping a bloody and battered Tyson in the later rounds; I also take Liston - pre winning the title - over Tyson though I know plenty wouldnt agree, mainly because of that jab and that reach and the fact he was as badass as Tyson (again go and have a look at him fight, he every bit as much as Tyson beat the other man up); it's hard to be sure about some of the earlier fighters but someone like Jack Johnson would have frustrated the hell out of Tyson much like Bonecrusher Smith did but would have been scoring and hurting him while he did it on his way to a points victory (if its over 20 rounds rather than 12, Iron Mike is in a terrible mess by the end). I give Holyfield a good chance against Tyson head-to-head - it's hard to shake what the past-prime Evander did to the past his best Tyson in their first fight, he showed no fear in beating him up (not always legally).I think Tyson is too strong for Dempsey and Marciano and stops both of them, a lthough I rate Jack the greater fighter from a career perspective.

Paulie W

VTech wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Main thing with pre jail Tyson was when he was in the ring it didn't feel like a boxing fight - it just felt like a guy beating someone up.

Amount of times the ref had to physically pull him away having already knocked his opponent out, still trying to swing at the guy.

Terrifying.

Here's pre-jail Tyson at his terrifying best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r98snTvjrvA

I think Tyson was a great fighter but those who eulogise him tend not to have seen many fights.

People like you make me laugh, claiming facts and yet posting a video clip whilst at the same time suggesting he was at his best. Your post is an attempt at deception because as you rightly know, he wasn't at his best at this time, far from it. His corner team didn't even have an enswell during the fight, his wife had publicly embarrassed him on national tv, he had not been training anything like that which he had done since starting as a pro and Don King had him attend promotional functions and parties instead of focusing on the fight.
Stories have been spread about the only man backing Buster being Mr King himself so I don't accept your statement, its wrong.

The problem with that argument is that many of those things were true for several years before he lost to Douglas - in his own words he didnt train for Bruno or Tubbs or any number of fights he won and which are held up as testimony to his greatness. I aboslutely accept that Tyson was in a bad place for the Douglas fight but he'd been in that place for a while. Greatness comes from rising above that adversity and still triumphing.

VTech

Paulie W wrote:

VTech wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Main thing with pre jail Tyson was when he was in the ring it didn't feel like a boxing fight - it just felt like a guy beating someone up.

Amount of times the ref had to physically pull him away having already knocked his opponent out, still trying to swing at the guy.

Terrifying.

Here's pre-jail Tyson at his terrifying best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r98snTvjrvA

I think Tyson was a great fighter but those who eulogise him tend not to have seen many fights.

People like you make me laugh, claiming facts and yet posting a video clip whilst at the same time suggesting he was at his best. Your post is an attempt at deception because as you rightly know, he wasn't at his best at this time, far from it. His corner team didn't even have an enswell during the fight, his wife had publicly embarrassed him on national tv, he had not been training anything like that which he had done since starting as a pro and Don King had him attend promotional functions and parties instead of focusing on the fight.
Stories have been spread about the only man backing Buster being Mr King himself so I don't accept your statement, its wrong.

The problem with that argument is that many of those things were true for several years before he lost to Douglas - in his own words he didnt train for Bruno or Tubbs or any number of fights he won and which are held up as testimony to his greatness. I aboslutely accept that Tyson was in a bad place for the Douglas fight but he'd been in that place for a while. Greatness comes from rising above that adversity and still triumphing.

After reading both of your posts above I accept you wrote them honestly and accept your points. Quite often people spout about boxing without knowing anything which pi55es me off as I grew up loving boxing because of people like tyson and ben etc.
I disagree with your thoughts still as I do rate tyson the best but your points are indeed valid.

norvernrob

I'm a regular on a couple of U.S boxing forums, and the consensus is that Lewis is the greater fighter. Not only that, most of the guys take prime Lewis to beat Prime Tyson.

Tyson would be lucky to make the top 5 ATG heavyweights. He's top 10 certainly, but the greatest? Not a chance.

VTech

NorvernRob wrote:

I'm a regular on a couple of U.S boxing forums, and the consensus is that Lewis is the greater fighter. Not only that, most of the guys take prime Lewis to beat Prime Tyson.

Tyson would be lucky to make the top 5 ATG heavyweights. He's top 10 certainly, but the greatest? Not a chance.

I have him as the best heavyweight of all time (during video era)
I just can't accept that there has been anyone that could take him, Ali never fought anyone as quick as Tyson, and although he was awesome, I don't think he was as mean as Tyson.
Thinking about nothing other than destroying the person in front of you is a huge part of Boxing.
Lewis never had the brain to kill his opponent, he was a nice fellow but he was an awesome boxer who kept safe and found the edge during the fight to win. Different types of fighters but in a square ring where you have nowhere to run, Tyson simply couldn't be stopped in his prime and he fought the best, time and time again.

drummer

VTech wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

Greatest by what measure?! He had an amazing combination of hand and foot speed and power but he could be shut down - fighters like Smith, Tucker, Green and Ratliff were all able to do it in his absolute prime - and if he didnt steamroller you he ran out of ideas; and those who stood up to him - Holyfield, Douglas - got his measure and beat him. You can argue that the drugs, the women and his mental health diminished him at young age and that would be true but if you want to call someone the greatest they have to have more longevity and they cant unracel as a fighter in the way that Tyson did.

I am not sure of anyone in the boxing game that would agree with this.
Tyson was untouchable until his setup in the rape charges, he was followed by yes men instead of real people like Cus. There was, were and are no other heavyweight fighters that could honestly suggest that they could beat him in their prime.

I could name you a few if you like?