Embankment, the end of an era?

iPete

Next week works starts on Victoria Embankment to move SCR onto its own private race track [we can dream].

The end of an era?

This time next year many of us will be on this..

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/travel-informatio ... -east-west
#noddergeddonheadoncollisionfest?

rick_chasey

Yeah. Not all that wide is it?

cruff

No way that's going to last six months without 'speed calming' measures of some sort. I reckon the first time there's an accident on it, there will be a campaign in the subStandard to get the 'menace in lycra' off it. Besides, won't any 'real' cyclist use the road instead?

jzed

You have to endure the works first. If they're anything like the current upgrade works to CS2 it'll be carnage for the rest of the year (dig up the entire road all at once, force everything into narrow spaces, change all light sequences to ensure nothing gets anywhere). There doesn't seem to be any consideration for cyclists whilst upgrading the routes for cyclists. Madness.

ugo.santalucia

To be fair... I don't see why SCR should be encouraged by TFL... I would enforce sensible riding just in the same way as sensible driving should be enforced.

roger_merriman

I've never liked Blackfriars to Tower, and has always seemed remarkably busy, unpleasant bit of road.

So for myself assuming it turns out vaguely like the plans it will be a improvement

adambruntlett

Some of the Embankment is good now, some of it is less so. I think going West-East the CS8 bit is fine until just after Millbank, and then it gets more hairy with the bit to Parliament being too narrow and the bit after Parliament to Blackfriars being too congested with buses, coaches, cabs, vans, lorries and parked cars. Same applies going the opposite way IMO. I'm not sure this will help matters and the cycle lane looks very narrow for 2-way traffic, whilst the cars etc will be massively congested with fewer lanes - think how bad it is now and then condense the traffic into even fewer lanes. The worst thing, as other have said, will be the work itself. It will be horrific for the next year or so. May even try and find an alternative route.

iPete

Don't worry ugo, don't really see TFL facilitating a SCR project..but have mixed feelings, some will be better, some worse. I simply predict some entertaining head on crashes!

Overall average speed might increase for everyone but some of us will lose those epic top speeds.
Ultimately, I'd be much happier with my other half taking up cycling on something like this but we shall see.
It's going to be a cluster f**k of boris bikers through to impatient 'allez man'.

If it is really bad, can always venture south of the river.

imatfaal

To be honest I thought the same of the mad ideas for stratford to bow - and whilst the bow roundabout still remains f deadly - the run from maryland to just before the roundabout is much much better. It is still a bit hairy at the shopping centre but far better than it used to be.

The bus-stops inside of the cycling lane seemed madness but the pedestrians are better behaved there than most cycle lanes I use - whether the tourists on embankment will sensible I doubt.

I do Tower to Big Ben (E to W) each morning and vice versa in the evening - anyone got any good alternative routes for the next six months of building?

dyrlac

It gets rid of the school trip/tourist coaches (all of which whose doors open on the wrong side [insert ukip rant ]), which is a good result and gets rid of all kinds of pinch points. My evening commutes are generally after the rush, so I expect I'll have the lane all to myself. I would not want to commute contraflow though in rush hour.

keyser__soze

Dyrlac wrote:

It gets rid of the school trip/tourist coaches (all of which whose doors open on the wrong side [insert ukip rant ]), which is a good result

They're just shifting them down to Millbank. Foreign coaches will have doors opening direct into the cycle lane.
https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/roads/millbank-coach

markhewitt1978

Why is there no dashed line down the middle?

They have it on most of the routes in the Netherlands;


We know how many lose the ability to keep left whenever off road.

dyrlac

Keyser__Soze wrote:

Dyrlac wrote:

It gets rid of the school trip/tourist coaches (all of which whose doors open on the wrong side [insert ukip rant ]), which is a good result

They're just shifting them down to Millbank. Foreign coaches will have doors opening direct into the cycle lane.
https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/roads/millbank-coach

Dammit. :roll:

(The single best thing they could do, IMHO, is to resurface the roads properly, but will we ever get that ...)

ugo.santalucia

iPete wrote:

If it is really bad, can always venture south of the river.

When I cycle to the city I normally do the A3 (CS7) all the way to London Bridge... E & C roundabout is a bit of a murder in the wait, but otherwise it's not too bad, until you get to Borough, then it's chaos

okgo

I'll be treating it like I'm in belgium, bunny hopping between the road and the cycle lane as I see fit

tgotb

okgo wrote:

I'll be treating it like I'm in belgium, bunny hopping between the road and the cycle lane as I see fit

That'll be particularly interesting heading East

I actually wonder whether this will improve things Westbound, where it's normally chocker all the way in the evenings. Eastbound is clearly going to be miserable, even in the (single) car lane. That said, I'll probably have got so used to the Lambeth Bridge/Blackfriars Bridge alternate route, while the works are going on, that I may not bother to switch back.

Bikequin

The Victoria embankment is pretty shoot for SCR anyway - in the mornings (West to East) it's full of idiots weaving in and out of the taxis and tipper trucks and in the evenings going the other way the traffic is pretty poor and as has been mentioned full of coaches.

cjcp

okgo wrote:

I'll be treating it like I'm in belgium, bunny hopping between the road and the cycle lane as I see fit

With the voice in your head of Paul saying to Phil, "And this guy really is an outstanding bike rider, Phil."

secretsam

ugo.santalucia wrote:

To be fair... I don't see why SCR should be encouraged by TFL... I would enforce sensible riding just in the same way as sensible driving should be enforced.

Quite right. Besides, am sick of being overtaken down my bit from Blackfriars to the bit where you turn for the Mall*. Someone overtook me yesterday on a low-pro, complete with disc wheel - now that's just trying too hard!


*demonstrates magnificent knowledge of London

andrewc3142

Hopefully yes, if the era is scr wannabe racers making the Embankment a fairly unpleasant experience for anyone not 100% confident, transporting kids, or whatever. The last little bit of my commute is from Putney to Cannon St, generally along the Embankment, and I'm more than happy just to toodle along there after an hour and a half of cycling quite quickly.

A cycle friendly urban environment is one where everyone is safe and relaxed. We talk about how great Holland, Denmark, Belgium, etc are, but they certainly don't race around towns there. Leave the fast stuff to the open road.

Wrath Rob

Makes me less sad I'm no longer on Embankment and enjoying the delights of the A200 instead

tgotb

andrewc3142 wrote:

A cycle friendly urban environment is one where everyone is safe and relaxed. We talk about how great Holland, Denmark, Belgium, etc are, but they certainly don't race around towns there. Leave the fast stuff to the open road.

They don't have the same size towns, though. Commuting at 10mph is probably fine in Amsterdam, because it's only a few miles across. Force everyone in London to ride at that speed, and bike commuting ceases to be viable for most people because it just takes too long to cover the distance required. If I commuted at that speed, it would add an hour to my day.

May be fine for Victoria Embankment, but the principle doesn't extend to London as a whole.

markhewitt1978

Who says they commute at 10mph anyway? And even if some of them do you can still go faster.

andrewc3142

TGOTB wrote:

andrewc3142 wrote:

A cycle friendly urban environment is one where everyone is safe and relaxed. We talk about how great Holland, Denmark, Belgium, etc are, but they certainly don't race around towns there. Leave the fast stuff to the open road.

They don't have the same size towns, though. Commuting at 10mph is probably fine in Amsterdam, because it's only a few miles across. Force everyone in London to ride at that speed, and bike commuting ceases to be viable for most people because it just takes too long to cover the distance required. If I commuted at that speed, it would add an hour to my day.

May be fine for Victoria Embankment, but the principle doesn't extend to London as a whole.

I'd agree that commuting distances are generally greater and that for many Dutch bikes in work clothes aren't very practical. However, certainly on my commute it only really becomes urban from Putney Bridge, maybe from RP. From there it's only a short ride into the City and racing along makes next to no real difference in time (assuming stopping at crossings, lights, etc). But it does make a big difference to those who want to just ride normally and the overall urban environment IMO. And it's just nice and relaxing.

I've still got 40 km to do the faster stuff before I get there.

tgotb

andrewc3142 wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

andrewc3142 wrote:

A cycle friendly urban environment is one where everyone is safe and relaxed. We talk about how great Holland, Denmark, Belgium, etc are, but they certainly don't race around towns there. Leave the fast stuff to the open road.

They don't have the same size towns, though. Commuting at 10mph is probably fine in Amsterdam, because it's only a few miles across. Force everyone in London to ride at that speed, and bike commuting ceases to be viable for most people because it just takes too long to cover the distance required. If I commuted at that speed, it would add an hour to my day.

May be fine for Victoria Embankment, but the principle doesn't extend to London as a whole.

I'd agree that commuting distances are generally greater and that for many Dutch bikes in work clothes aren't very practical. However, certainly on my commute it only really becomes urban from Putney Bridge, maybe from RP. From there it's only a short ride into the City and racing along makes next to no real difference in time (assuming stopping at crossings, lights, etc). But it does make a big difference to those who want to just ride normally and the overall urban environment IMO. And it's just nice and relaxing.

I've still got 40 km to do the faster stuff before I get there.

Richmond Park to the City is still about 10 miles; doing that at Dutch bike speeds is going to take an hour. It may only be short in the context of your overall commute, but try restricting yourself to the speed of a typical besuited Boris biker (which is what you'd be stuck behind on the type of infrastructure planned) and see how much extra time it adds.

If i had to ride the whole of that distance at a pootle, I'd be spending nearly 3 hours a day on a bike, most of it at a speed that doesn't give me any meaningful exercise. I'd probably end up commuting by train and then doing laps of the park in the evening, just because it's a better use of my time. More to the point, it wouldn't make sense for anyone living in my area to cycle into Central London.

Edit: All I really want is to be able to ride at the same speed as the cars, when my legs are up to it. The issue with some of this dedicated infrastructure is that it effectively imposes a much lower speed limit on bicycles, which reduces their viability as a means of transport. Fine for short stretches, if there's a general benefit, but not for mile after mile after mile.....

cruff

TGOTB wrote:

andrewc3142 wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

andrewc3142 wrote:

A cycle friendly urban environment is one where everyone is safe and relaxed. We talk about how great Holland, Denmark, Belgium, etc are, but they certainly don't race around towns there. Leave the fast stuff to the open road.

They don't have the same size towns, though. Commuting at 10mph is probably fine in Amsterdam, because it's only a few miles across. Force everyone in London to ride at that speed, and bike commuting ceases to be viable for most people because it just takes too long to cover the distance required. If I commuted at that speed, it would add an hour to my day.

May be fine for Victoria Embankment, but the principle doesn't extend to London as a whole.

I'd agree that commuting distances are generally greater and that for many Dutch bikes in work clothes aren't very practical. However, certainly on my commute it only really becomes urban from Putney Bridge, maybe from RP. From there it's only a short ride into the City and racing along makes next to no real difference in time (assuming stopping at crossings, lights, etc). But it does make a big difference to those who want to just ride normally and the overall urban environment IMO. And it's just nice and relaxing.

I've still got 40 km to do the faster stuff before I get there.

Richmond Park to the City is still about 10 miles; doing that at Dutch bike speeds is going to take an hour. It may only be short in the context of your overall commute, but try restricting yourself to the speed of a typical besuited Boris biker (which is what you'd be stuck behind on the type of infrastructure planned) and see how much extra time it adds.

If i had to ride the whole of that distance at a pootle, I'd be spending nearly 3 hours a day on a bike, most of it at a speed that doesn't give me any meaningful exercise. I'd probably end up commuting by train and then doing laps of the park in the evening, just because it's a better use of my time. More to the point, it wouldn't make sense for anyone living in my area to cycle into Central London.

Edit: All I really want is to be able to ride at the same speed as the cars, when my legs are up to it. The issue with some of this dedicated infrastructure is that it effectively imposes a much lower speed limit on bicycles, which reduces their viability as a means of transport. Fine for short stretches, if there's a general benefit, but not for mile after mile after mile.....

I agree with all of that... But this isn't really a problem until it starts to creep towards actually forcing cyclists to use cycle paths. There's a big difference between creating infrastructure to encourage more people to cycle, and creating it to appease cab drivers/wvm/construction traffic

greg66_tri_v2.0

andrewc3142 wrote:

Hopefully yes, if the era is scr wannabe racers making the Embankment a fairly unpleasant experience for anyone not 100% confident, transporting kids, or whatever. The last little bit of my commute is from Putney to Cannon St, generally along the Embankment, and I'm more than happy just to toodle along there after an hour and a half of cycling quite quickly.

A cycle friendly urban environment is one where everyone is safe and relaxed. We talk about how great Holland, Denmark, Belgium, etc are, but they certainly don't race around towns there. Leave the fast stuff to the open road.

BORING!!!

iPete

Who's excited?
https://twitter.com/beagleldn/status/632611931166240768

This is before it's painted and made 2 way. *gulp*

kayodot

I'm so glad my commute no longer goes via Embankment.

pblakeney

[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19566750#p19566750]TGOTB[/url] wrote:

Edit: All I really want is to be able to ride at the same speed as the cars, when my legs are up to it.

Isn't that what roads are for?

iPete

Does anyone want to the share their alternatives from Blackfriars > South of the river towards Richmond Park? What are the best/quickest/safest routes around Waterloo. A3205/CS8 superhighway OK?