Yet Another Di2 Failure
Comments
-
Did you connect the cables up initially? If so, I think I have figured out what the problem is.bernithebiker wrote:First Aspect wrote:So, what you are saying is that you reconnected everything and now its working?
Well blow me down.
Maybe you didn't read the whole thread? There was a BIG gap in between the two failures (couple of weeks, 3 to 400km). So it's reasonable to assume there could be a big gap before the next one, no?
I've only done 60k on it so far, and I'm far from confident the problem has gone away. We shall see.
In any case, given that the connections and wires seem absolutely fine, if that was it, then isn't it a bit worrying from a long term reliability stand point?0 -
First Aspect wrote:
Did you connect the cables up initially? If so, I think I have figured out what the problem is.bernithebiker wrote:First Aspect wrote:So, what you are saying is that you reconnected everything and now its working?
Well blow me down.
Maybe you didn't read the whole thread? There was a BIG gap in between the two failures (couple of weeks, 3 to 400km). So it's reasonable to assume there could be a big gap before the next one, no?
I've only done 60k on it so far, and I'm far from confident the problem has gone away. We shall see.
In any case, given that the connections and wires seem absolutely fine, if that was it, then isn't it a bit worrying from a long term reliability stand point?
Yes I did.0 -
Look, it might not be a self inflicted problem, but again I'm just trying to point out an alternative explanation which is entirely consistent with all reported observations. Occam's razor and all that.0
-
First Aspect wrote:Look, it might not be a self inflicted problem, but again I'm just trying to point out an alternative explanation which is entirely consistent with all reported observations. Occam's razor and all that.
Not sure what you're driving at here; yes I connected the cables myself, using the correct tool, leaving a little slack before the bar tape so as not to exert any pressure on the shifter when turning, making sure I got the nice little click as each cable seated perfectly.
This was October 2014, so 6 months and 7000km of trouble free use.
So why now (in April), spontaneously, and for no apparent reason should I be getting these failures?0 -
Its not spontaneously though, is it? Firstly, you used the bike a lot. Secondly, you adjusted the shifters. Thirdly, you connected everything back up and it works fine.bernithebiker wrote:So why now (in April), spontaneously, and for no apparent reason should I be getting these failures?0 -
First Aspect wrote:
Its not spontaneously though, is it? Firstly, you used the bike a lot. Secondly, you adjusted the shifters. Thirdly, you connected everything back up and it works fine.bernithebiker wrote:So why now (in April), spontaneously, and for no apparent reason should I be getting these failures?
I still don't think you're getting the order of events here.
7000km = fine. Then SPONTANEOUSLY (i.e. all of a sudden, I didn't touch or change anything) 1/2 way through a ride, no more front shifting.
Manage to get it back on line after 10k, finish ride.
Do several other rides, no problems. Then SPONTANEOUSLY, again, near the end of a ride, front shifting fails again - this time nothing I can do to get it working so finish in big ring.
Mysteriously comes back after 2 hours off the bike.
I now check connections. Seem fine. Ride 60k. All OK.
I would love the problem to be solved. Maybe it is. But it doesn't add up to me. Can't ride much at the mo as pouring down, but hopefully get out for 120k tomorrow.....
(N.B. You say I 'adjusted' the shifters. Not sure why, I didn't)0 -
Oh, sorry, it was some other guy who adjusted his shifters....... but I maintain that nothing has happened spontaneously. Your bike has been used for, what about 250 hours?bernithebiker wrote:First Aspect wrote:
Its not spontaneously though, is it? Firstly, you used the bike a lot. Secondly, you adjusted the shifters. Thirdly, you connected everything back up and it works fine.bernithebiker wrote:So why now (in April), spontaneously, and for no apparent reason should I be getting these failures?
I still don't think you're getting the order of events here.
7000km = fine. Then SPONTANEOUSLY (i.e. all of a sudden, I didn't touch or change anything) 1/2 way through a ride, no more front shifting.
Manage to get it back on line after 10k, finish ride.
Do several other rides, no problems. Then SPONTANEOUSLY, again, near the end of a ride, front shifting fails again - this time nothing I can do to get it working so finish in big ring.
Mysteriously comes back after 2 hours off the bike.
I now check connections. Seem fine. Ride 60k. All OK.
I would love the problem to be solved. Maybe it is. But it doesn't add up to me. Can't ride much at the mo as pouring down, but hopefully get out for 120k tomorrow.....
(N.B. You say I 'adjusted' the shifters. Not sure why, I didn't)0 -
First Aspect wrote:Oh, sorry, it was some other guy who adjusted his shifters....... but I maintain that nothing has happened spontaneously. Your bike has been used for, what about 250 hours?
OK this is getting weird, but anyway, yes, about 250 hours. 1st failure arose at about 225 hours, 2nd at about 245 hours.
It's spontaneous because, no event prompted it - no crash, no water, no adjustment, no bumps even, just riding along......0 -
So, 225 hours' use couldn't possibly have prompted a failure of some sort, like, say a misinstalled cable finally coming loose? The 2nd fault is the same fault as the first fault, incidentally, since you've only just fixed it.bernithebiker wrote:First Aspect wrote:Oh, sorry, it was some other guy who adjusted his shifters....... but I maintain that nothing has happened spontaneously. Your bike has been used for, what about 250 hours?
OK this is getting weird, but anyway, yes, about 250 hours. 1st failure arose at about 225 hours, 2nd at about 245 hours.
It's spontaneous because, no event prompted it - no crash, no water, no adjustment, no bumps even, just riding along......0 -
First Aspect wrote:
So, 225 hours' use couldn't possibly have prompted a failure of some sort, like, say a misinstalled cable finally coming loose? The 2nd fault is the same fault as the first fault, incidentally, since you've only just fixed it.bernithebiker wrote:First Aspect wrote:Oh, sorry, it was some other guy who adjusted his shifters....... but I maintain that nothing has happened spontaneously. Your bike has been used for, what about 250 hours?
OK this is getting weird, but anyway, yes, about 250 hours. 1st failure arose at about 225 hours, 2nd at about 245 hours.
It's spontaneous because, no event prompted it - no crash, no water, no adjustment, no bumps even, just riding along......
Well clearly, SOMETHING has happened after 225 hours to provoke the failure, but I'm still not sure what.
The cables were NOT misinstalled; I knew I'd connected them properly, and disconnecting and reconnecting them has only confirmed this.
Maybe it's a poor contact, or corrosion of the contacts, or still possibly a chafed wire (I have yet to pull the wire from the frame). But maybe (and Shimano themselves have said the same) it's a dodgy front mech (I've already had one replaced) or junction box. Electronic stuff does fail.
In any event, it's not great, as any wire related event suggests that Di2 is prone to poor contacts, and any component failure, well speaks for itself really...0 -
In the meantime, its sponteneously fixed itself.0
-
First Aspect wrote:In the meantime, its sponteneously fixed itself.
Presumably you'd have said the same thing at 225 hrs and you'd have been wrong. (At that point I did a visual check of all connectors, and all looked fine).
The connecting wires are either in or out; there is a very positive click when they connect properly - and they were.
I'd love you to be right though. I'll report back after some longer rides.0 -
bernithebiker wrote:First Aspect wrote:
Its not spontaneously though, is it? Firstly, you used the bike a lot. Secondly, you adjusted the shifters. Thirdly, you connected everything back up and it works fine.bernithebiker wrote:So why now (in April), spontaneously, and for no apparent reason should I be getting these failures?
I still don't think you're getting the order of events here.
7000km = fine. Then SPONTANEOUSLY (i.e. all of a sudden, I didn't touch or change anything) 1/2 way through a ride, no more front shifting.
Manage to get it back on line after 10k, finish ride.
Do several other rides, no problems. Then SPONTANEOUSLY, again, near the end of a ride, front shifting fails again - this time nothing I can do to get it working so finish in big ring.
Mysteriously comes back after 2 hours off the bike.
I now check connections. Seem fine. Ride 60k. All OK.
I would love the problem to be solved. Maybe it is. But it doesn't add up to me. Can't ride much at the mo as pouring down, but hopefully get out for 120k tomorrow.....
(N.B. You say I 'adjusted' the shifters. Not sure why, I didn't)
You really did not read my post did you! Just because you can't see it does not mean it is spontaneous. Until you learn to accept that and work methodically through the issue you will remain frustrated. Sorry, we tried to help but you can't help some.
I don't fathom why folks come to ask for help but ignore and argue with the help that they are given.
Out...0 -
Take each cable out and in bright sunlight or strong artificial light examine the connector under a lens of some sort, paying particular attention to the condition of the centre pin. Poke at it with a scalpel if you have one but don't bend it or deform it. If it looks a bit grubby or corroded, bin it, even though leads are about £20. Check all of the connectors but esp the ones in exposed areas, i.e. junction B under the BB (if you have that) and the connection into the FD & RD, and don't assume that the first one you find will be the cause.
I had 18 months of f******ng around with mine with numerous return trips to the shop and lengthy periods without it whilst it was checked, all to no avail until the lead to the RD was proven by substitution to be at fault.0 -
You are just adding fuel to the fire, with this story about being systematic and then finding out that it was your rd after all.CiB wrote:Take each cable out and in bright sunlight or strong artificial light examine the connector under a lens of some sort, paying particular attention to the condition of the centre pin. Poke at it with a scalpel if you have one but don't bend it or deform it. If it looks a bit grubby or corroded, bin it, even though leads are about £20. Check all of the connectors but esp the ones in exposed areas, i.e. junction B under the BB (if you have that) and the connection into the FD & RD, and don't assume that the first one you find will be the cause.
I had 18 months of f******ng around with mine with numerous return trips to the shop and lengthy periods without it whilst it was checked, all to no avail until the lead to the RD was proven by substitution to be at fault.
No, the thing to do is to think your way to a solution. Stare at the bike and mentally eliminate things one by one. Eventually the problem will present itself.0 -
raldat wrote:You really did not read my post did you! Just because you can't see it does not mean it is spontaneous. Until you learn to accept that and work methodically through the issue you will remain frustrated. Sorry, we tried to help but you can't help some.
I don't fathom why folks come to ask for help but ignore and argue with the help that they are given.
Out...
Er, as far as I can tell the advice has been to check all the connections, which I've now done. Or am I missing something?
They were all in fine, and they've all gone back in fine. No sign of deformation or corrosion.
Thanks CiB for a useful insight into what sounds like a very similar problem. My B junction is inside the downtube (at the bottom) so not exposed at all.
I think the only way to be 100% sure from here on is, as you say, to replace the cables. Something I'd rather not do, at £20 a pop, and the downtube one is tricky to thread through. Guess I'd start with the cable from Junction A to B, then the Junction B to FD cable. Maybe also the front shifter to A Junction cable. Then if the problem still persists I may need to change the B Junction box, then possibly the FD itself.
Today's long ride rained off
so no chance for testing today. 0 -
No. For a start I stated quite clearly that the RD LEAD was at fault, not the mech. The only way we managed to trace it was by working through and replacing bits, and seeing if the fault cleared with each substitution. You can't get much more systematic than that, I was lucky that my LBS was very suportive and as keen to resolve it as I was so I didn't have to buy many bits.First Aspect wrote:You are just adding fuel to the fire, with this story about being systematic and then finding out that it was your rd after all.
No, the thing to do is to think your way to a solution. Stare at the bike and mentally eliminate things one by one. Eventually the problem will present itself.
The corroded connector happened on mine. I was convinced when I found it that the problem was solved, but it was still present even after a new cable and a new junction B, hence the suggestion to keep going.
Bottom line is that these things are brilliant but faults are hard to resolve, mainly becasue they're few & far between and also because electronics are involved. Not many of us would have our phones in bits trying to fix them, Di2 is pretty similar.
I'm not sure how staring at it will miraculously highlight a problem that me, the shop and the suppliers have between us failed to identify. How long would I have had to stare at mine to realise that the lead to the replacement RD was obviously the cause?0 -
CiB wrote:
No. For a start I stated quite clearly that the RD LEAD was at fault, not the mech. The only way we managed to trace it was by working through and replacing bits, and seeing if the fault cleared with each substitution. You can't get much more systematic than that, I was lucky that my LBS was very suportive and as keen to resolve it as I was so I didn't have to buy many bits.First Aspect wrote:You are just adding fuel to the fire, with this story about being systematic and then finding out that it was your rd after all.
No, the thing to do is to think your way to a solution. Stare at the bike and mentally eliminate things one by one. Eventually the problem will present itself.
The corroded connector happened on mine. I was convinced when I found it that the problem was solved, but it was still present even after a new cable and a new junction B, hence the suggestion to keep going.
Bottom line is that these things are brilliant but faults are hard to resolve, mainly becasue they're few & far between and also because electronics are involved. Not many of us would have our phones in bits trying to fix them, Di2 is pretty similar.
I'm not sure how staring at it will miraculously highlight a problem that me, the shop and the suppliers have between us failed to identify. How long would I have had to stare at mine to realise that the lead to the replacement RD was obviously the cause?
CIB, I think he's probably being sarcastic in that it's me looking at the bike hoping for a miraculous 'self-fix'.
At this stage I've checked all the connections and they all look tip top - no corrosion at all; I really don't ride in the rain unless it's unavoidable.
I love Di2 too, but it's too risky for guide work as too few shops are skilled in Di2 and very few carry spares.
How long was it (days / kms) before your problem manifested itself?
Here's a pic of my BB showing the EWW01 and the Junction B.
0 -
The cable at the bottom left of the box (as you see it in that photo) doesn't look as though its fully in to me.
Only messing with you.
But seriously, I'd take a look.
Just my little joke.0 -
Well in the interests of reporting back on this one, it's now been 2 weeks and 6 to 700km or so of riding without a front shifting failure.
The sum total of my 'remedial work' was a) remove and reconnect 2 leads (these were already securely connected).
b) inspection (but no disconnection) of B junction box and wires in BB area.
So what was it? Suspicion must fall on a loose connection, but these cables are either in or out. When they go in, there is a positive click that tells you they're in. So they're either in or out, there is no in between.
Corrosion or dirt? Possibly but the connection is well protected, and I keep my bike very clean.
So hopefully this has gone away, but I can't say I'd be surprised if it happened again.....0 -
As I believe I wrote previously it is most likely a dry joint. Ie / The wire / solder bond has broken down. You cannot see this with the eye at least.0
-
0 -
bernithebiker wrote:So what was it? Suspicion must fall on a loose connection, but these cables are either in or out. When they go in, there is a positive click that tells you they're in. So they're either in or out, there is no in between.
Mine were still 'clicked in' when I moved the levers, but they were still the cause of the failure. Seems on mine at least theres possibility that the connection is lost even with the click.
Not saying this to be a dick like others
but glad it's fixed. 0 -
eddiefiola wrote:Not saying this to be a dick like others but glad it's fixed.
Thanks!0 -
There were several pages of patience and helpful advice before ridicule set in. Even now he maintains that its fixed even though there was nothing wrong with the connections.eddiefiola wrote:bernithebiker wrote:So what was it? Suspicion must fall on a loose connection, but these cables are either in or out. When they go in, there is a positive click that tells you they're in. So they're either in or out, there is no in between.
Mine were still 'clicked in' when I moved the levers, but they were still the cause of the failure. Seems on mine at least theres possibility that the connection is lost even with the click.
Not saying this to be a dick like others but glad it's fixed.0 -
First Aspect wrote:
There were several pages of patience and helpful advice before ridicule set in. Even now he maintains that its fixed even though there was nothing wrong with the connections.eddiefiola wrote:bernithebiker wrote:So what was it? Suspicion must fall on a loose connection, but these cables are either in or out. When they go in, there is a positive click that tells you they're in. So they're either in or out, there is no in between.
Mine were still 'clicked in' when I moved the levers, but they were still the cause of the failure. Seems on mine at least theres possibility that the connection is lost even with the click.
Not saying this to be a dick like others but glad it's fixed.
I really don't get why you have an axe to grind here. Ridicule? Because I was away for a week and couldn't check my bike? Ridicule, because having properly connected my wires (until they click) as per Shimano's guidelines, I had a hard time accepting it was a loose connection?
So if there was "nothing wrong with the connections", what was the problem then, genius?0 -
Will reserect this thread as my problem is the same.
Ultegra 6870 with RS785 shifter.
Riding along this afternoon go to go to the 34 ring and mech seemed sound like it would shift with the motor sound but nothing. Then the Garmin display for the gear ratio reads 0 - 21. Flicks between this and 2 and the odd 44. Did jump back into life for a few minutes on the display and I could shift then dropped again. Battery showed 40% didn't check the trim setting.
Got home reseated all cables, disconnected battery and tried trim adjustment to no avail.
Still dead now any ideas?0 -
Has no one mentioned the fact that di2 is a problem that didn't need solving
:twisted:Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.0 -
Have you got the program e tube project? If not get it and plug your bik in to the laptop and do a diagnosis and it should bring up the fault.
Best to look on YouTube on how this works but it's pretty simple
http://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/When i die I just hope the wife doesn't sell my stuff for what I told her I paid for it other wise someone will be getting a mega deal!!!
De rosa superking 888 di20 -
itboffin wrote:Has no one mentioned the fact that di2 is a problem that didn't need solving
:twisted:
Did you mean mechanical shifting is a problem that didn't need solving (with Di2)?
If you did, its not so much a solution, more an advancement.
It is a solution to some aspects of mechanical shifting though.0
