Upgrade wheels, go tubeless?

Standing100

Hi, I was in a LBS asking about a new set of wheels and they recommended the Shimano Ultegra 6800 and told me that tubeless road wheels are the future. I've struggled to find much info about them, the pros or cons about them. I have also been looking at the Zonda wheelset (within my £300 budget).
What are people's thoughts and experiences with tubeless wheels/tyres?

I ride numerous sportives and would like to complete a 100 miler this summer. I'm 77kg and would like a blend of comfort and performance on a wheelset to upgrade from my R500 that came on my bike.

ugo.santalucia

I am very much into the tubeless saga... I wrote a piece some time ago, which I think goes to answer your questions.
The tubeless tyres market is limited, but slowly growing and prices are starting to come down

http://whosatthewheel.com/2015/02/21/cl ... -tubulars/

Rocketm0n

This might be worth a look. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nit55MSaFJ4

Anonymous

Quite liked the video and generally agree with it.

Trouble is that anything with a £ sign attached attracts haters.
Personally I like to check things out for myself.

Have clinchers, tubular and tubeless ........... all good, theres nothing to hate

mugensi

I dont think tubeless will ever be the predominant wheel/tyre type although they will grow in popularity when more manufacturuers produce tubeless tyres and the prices start to come down closer to regular clincher tyres. I have a set of two way fit wheels on one of my bikes but I have no notion of putting tubeless tyres on them any time soon or in the future.

ugo.santalucia

MugenSi wrote:

I dont think tubeless will ever be the predominant wheel/tyre type

Why not? I think they will in performance oriented tyres...

mugensi

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MugenSi wrote:

I dont think tubeless will ever be the predominant wheel/tyre type

Why not? I think they will in performance oriented tyres...

Maybe but the vast majority of cyclists arent performance orientated cyclists and i think for the average cyclist who does sportives and cycles for leisure and fitness, tubeless is too messy and complicated compared to regular tubes/tyres and you still have to carry a spare tube or two in case of punctures. I just dont see it ever superceding the current tyre/tube set up.

Anonymous

MugenSi wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MugenSi wrote:

I dont think tubeless will ever be the predominant wheel/tyre type

Why not? I think they will in performance oriented tyres...

Maybe but the vast majority of cyclists arent performance orientated cyclists and i think for the average cyclist who does sportives and cycles for leisure and fitness, tubeless is too messy and complicated compared to regular tubes/tyres and you still have to carry a spare tube or two in case of punctures. I just dont see it ever superceding the current tyre/tube set up.

What current clincher tyres do you perceive as 'performance orientated?
They sell thousands of those so why would those people not potentially go tubeless?

Have not found them messy or complicated personally.
Would have thought the average sportive/leisure cyclist would be just as likely to appreciate the advantages.
Main downside seems to be that they may be harder to get a tube in if need be.

You would be carrying the tube anyway so thats a non point.
Surely its a big advantage if you are less likely to need it.

w00dster

I have clincher and tubeless, I guess both of mine would be considered performance wheelsets.
Tubeless set up for me was a bit of a pig, tyres were tough to get on but sealing them was fine, no mess. Took about an hour. Have done about 1000 miles on them now and I can't say there's a huge performance difference that I've noticed.
My club are affiliated with a manufacturer so most of us ride performance tubeless wheels. I have to admit it's fantastic not stopping for a flat, we do 80 mile Sunday rides and a shorter chain gang once a week, I seriously can't remember stopping for a flat this year.
I pump the tyres up before each ride as mine do lose air overnight, but I also do this with clinchers. Whilst rolling though I notice no air loss, 7 hour ride on Sunday and checked on my return, lost very very little pressure.
So my summary, performance wise I'm still yet to be convinced, comfort wise, tubeless win and faff wise tubeless win.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Time to ask the "stupid" question: What happens when you get a puncture when using tubeless tyres?

ugo.santalucia

NitrousOxide wrote:

Time to ask the "stupid" question: What happens when you get a puncture when using tubeless tyres?

It fixes itself. If it doesn't you fit a small inner tube inside.

A question for you... what happens when you pinch an inner tube trying to repair a puncture on the road and it's your last inner tube?

Anonymous

I have never had serious trouble getting a road tyre on/off, even a turbo tyre that people say are tough.
Sure some are harder than others but with a bit of technic and a couple of levers that go on.
Nice thing about tubeless is that there is no inner tube to pinch/trap.

I am not overly in favour of tubeless, I am just in the process of trying them.
It does annoy me when people come up with BS against using/trying them though.

ugo.santalucia

Carbonator wrote:

Sure some are harder than others but with a bit of technic and a couple of levers that go on.

Even that is questionable.
Schwalbe ONE on DT RR 440 goes on without levers... it's as easy as an easy clincher... Pacenti SL 23 is a different story, but it is also for clinchers.

JoostG

MugenSi wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MugenSi wrote:

I dont think tubeless will ever be the predominant wheel/tyre type

Why not? I think they will in performance oriented tyres...

Maybe but the vast majority of cyclists arent performance orientated cyclists and i think for the average cyclist who does sportives and cycles for leisure and fitness, tubeless is too messy and complicated compared to regular tubes/tyres and you still have to carry a spare tube or two in case of punctures. I just dont see it ever superceding the current tyre/tube set up.

Too messy and too complicated? Own experiences or just what you have been reading/hearing?

Messy is such a bull shit argument as long as you can aim Complicated? Tubeless tyre can have a tight fit, but the newer versions seems to be much easier to mount (and keep in mind that the rim has an important role to play as well). What do you get in return: more grip, more comfort (tubeless should be used at lower pressure), no flats. What's not to like?

My experiences so far (converted all wheelsets to tubeless last year and rode approx 13000 km tubeless): less tired after 150km+ rides, a lot of confidence in cornering/descending (due to more grip and lack of exploding inner tubes), more adventurous (gravel, etc, nowadays I ride everywhere because off comfort and puncture resistance), and no cursing along side the road when replacing inner tubes in freeing cold weather).

Looking at performance, I don't think a tubeless tyre is faster. But, you can ride with lower pressure without increase of rolling resistance. The extra comfort, keeps you more 'fresh' and that will count after a lot of distance.

w00dster

The messy and complicated bit I can't understand.
Bontrager (and I'm sure others as well) sell a kit that has all you need, little click on Youtube to see how others have installed them and away you go. My wheels are also Bontrager and it comes with a nice little rim strip, simply press that into the rim, put the tyre on, pump up to check the seal, mine sealed pretty much first time (just had to tighten the valve nut). Once happy, remove the valve core (ridiculously easy) and squeeze in the slime. It really is incredibly simple to do. The most messy part of it all was putting my cassette on my new wheels - but you are likely to have to do that anyway with new wheels.
I am a total clutz when it comes to anything mechanical and I found it completely mess free and uncomplicated. It took a bit of strength to get the tyres seated, and an hour of my time. Now that being said, I ride a lot, in all conditions and so far have had not had to do a road side stop, so the 1 hour sitting at home in my front room to fit them was well worth it in my opinion.
Next time I'll probably try and Schwalbe one's and see what that tyre / rim combination is like.

sloppyschleckonds

Do Vittoria or Veloflex make any tubeless tyres?

ugo.santalucia

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Do Vittoria or Veloflex make any tubeless tyres?

No and even Continental doesn't... I wouldn't rate any of them as being a very innovative company though... the GP 4000 have been their top end clincher for over 10 years and all their range is made of slight variations of the same thing.

drlodge

I'm just moving to tubeless, Ugo is building (has built!) a set for me identical to these in the photo of his excellent blog http://whosatthewheel.com/2015/03/06/dt ... out-there/

Only time will tell how they compare to my existing Excellight/Record hoops. These RR440 rims have a lot going for them, looking forward to picking them up tomorrow!

Road tubeless tyres are still quite rare, Schwalbe Ones are the current go to tyre, on these rims its 23c.

lostboysaint

It is interesting seeing all the roadies go through the same arguments that us MTBers went through years ago.

The only issue I have with road tubeless (both my MTBs are tubeless) is that being a sizeable bloke (98kg) the pressures I need in tyres (85 and 90 in my 25mm Michelin Pro4 End) may well just blast the sealant clean out of the tyre should it puncture. Once I've got my head around that particular problem I will be converting, especially as my rims are good to go!

ugo.santalucia

lostboysaint wrote:

It is interesting seeing all the roadies go through the same arguments that us MTBers went through years ago.

The only issue I have with road tubeless (both my MTBs are tubeless) is that being a sizeable bloke (98kg) the pressures I need in tyres (85 and 90 in my 25mm Michelin Pro4 End) may well just blast the sealant clean out of the tyre should it puncture. Once I've got my head around that particular problem I will be converting, especially as my rims are good to go!

That's the pressure everybody use, I don't see the problem

lostboysaint

Ok, I may well give it a go then. For some reason I'd convinced myself you were running less (I may have got confused with the CX threads).

Standing100

Having posted the original question and having read more threads elsewhere, I'm more convinced to give them a go. The only question is whether the Shimano Ultegra 6800 Wheelset is the best at the sub £300 range?

Thanks for peoples comments and thoughts!!

Ber Nard

Admittedly I've not looked into tubeless tyres too much but the whole "no punctures" thing; surely that's just down to the sealant and, therefore, putting it in regular clinchers or tubs would give the same level of (barring pinch flats) puncture protection? Or is the sealant in there for another reason and just so happens to boost puncture protection?

ugo.santalucia

Ber Nard wrote:

Admittedly I've not looked into tubeless tyres too much but the whole "no punctures" thing; surely that's just down to the sealant and, therefore, putting it in regular clinchers or tubs would give the same level of (barring pinch flats) puncture protection? Or is the sealant in there for another reason and just so happens to boost puncture protection?

Why do you love inner tubes so much? I find them awful and prehistoric things...

Ber Nard

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Ber Nard wrote:

Admittedly I've not looked into tubeless tyres too much but the whole "no punctures" thing; surely that's just down to the sealant and, therefore, putting it in regular clinchers or tubs would give the same level of (barring pinch flats) puncture protection? Or is the sealant in there for another reason and just so happens to boost puncture protection?

Why do you love inner tubes so much? I find them awful and prehistoric things...

Where did I say say I love inner tubes? I asked genuine questions. Do I take it from your reply that you don't know the answers?

w00dster

In answer to Ber Nard, I kind of know with where you are coming from. In my mind Tubeless and Tubs are fairly similar. They are a wheel/tyre system with the rims being specifically designed to best support the tyre system you choose.
Most of the racers will probably prefer tubs, I personally don't. But thats because I'm absolutely useless with installing them, I find tubeless much easier. Personal preference. Not sure I would use a normal clincher rim without a tube. You could take the tube out pump it up and see if it seals, I wouldn't think it would but you never know. Again personal preference but I prefer to trust key products to do a job they were designed to do. Clincher rims were designed for the use of an inner tube, tubeless rims have been designed for use without. I've also used sealant in my clinchers, for my cross bike I had some Bontrager puncture resistant tubes - all I can say was they lasted about 4 or 5 rides before going in the bin, horrible things. Heavy and dead feeling.
For me I love the fact that tubeless are comfortable (like tubs) and also provide the puncture protection (using sealant like tubs) - but when the dreaded puncture does strike all I have to do is stick a tube in there.
Its all about personal preference. Tubs offer more tyres (prob fair to say most of them are "faster" tyres), more wheel choices and are equally as comfortable as tubeless. However in my opinion (and I have used them) tubs are let down by the faff factor. I'm much more comfortable sticking in a tube rather than hoping my workmanship of gluing on a tub lets me complete my ride. If I had a team car and a mechanic following me around I'd opt for tubs, but I don't, so a close second is tubeless.
I'm also aware people can change tubs faster than I can change a clincher, but thats why its great to have these choices that suit all of us different individuals.
As an aside I would also add that my clinchers are probably my fastest wheels, but thats all relative.

ugo.santalucia

Ber Nard wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Ber Nard wrote:

Admittedly I've not looked into tubeless tyres too much but the whole "no punctures" thing; surely that's just down to the sealant and, therefore, putting it in regular clinchers or tubs would give the same level of (barring pinch flats) puncture protection? Or is the sealant in there for another reason and just so happens to boost puncture protection?

Why do you love inner tubes so much? I find them awful and prehistoric things...

Where did I say say I love inner tubes? I asked genuine questions. Do I take it from your reply that you don't know the answers?

It will most likely work... but it's the classic braces + belt approach.... not only you create friction by having two layers of rubber instead of one, but you also jam it with a liquid inside for good measure.
If you can get the same result without the inner tube, why do you want it there?

Also, you can't remove the sealant from the inner tube... OK, they are cheap and cheerful creatures, but will you remember to bin them every 3/6 months?

Finally, there are other advantages to tubeless... have a look at the article I wrote some time ago on my blog

Anonymous

Whats the difference (generally) in tyre pressures, comfort and rolling resistance (speed) between 25mm clinchers and 25mm tubeless?

It seems to me that if tubeless are more comfortable (without being significantly slower) then all the people who obsessed with 25mm clinchers should be banging the door down to go tubeless, but its probably more likely that they are the ones who will bad mouth the concept 8)

Rocketm0n

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Ber Nard wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Ber Nard wrote:

Admittedly I've not looked into tubeless tyres too much but the whole "no punctures" thing; surely that's just down to the sealant and, therefore, putting it in regular clinchers or tubs would give the same level of (barring pinch flats) puncture protection? Or is the sealant in there for another reason and just so happens to boost puncture protection?

Also, you can't remove the sealant from the inner tube... OK, they are cheap and cheerful creatures, but will you remember to bin them every 3/6 months?

I hadn't realized that the sealant only lasted that long. At £60 a pair I'd hope that my Schwalbe Ones might last more than 3/6 months, especially the front. Changing the sealant before changing the tyre(s) sounds like an unwanted and messy chore!

ugo.santalucia

Rocketm0n wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Ber Nard wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Ber Nard wrote:

Admittedly I've not looked into tubeless tyres too much but the whole "no punctures" thing; surely that's just down to the sealant and, therefore, putting it in regular clinchers or tubs would give the same level of (barring pinch flats) puncture protection? Or is the sealant in there for another reason and just so happens to boost puncture protection?

Also, you can't remove the sealant from the inner tube... OK, they are cheap and cheerful creatures, but will you remember to bin them every 3/6 months?

I hadn't realized that the sealant only lasted that long. At £60 a pair I'd hope that my Schwalbe Ones might last more than 3/6 months, especially the front. Changing the sealant before changing the tyre(s) sounds like an unwanted and messy chore!

You can top it up... but if it has formed large gunks, it would be best to clear them. The main issue is that you don't want to gunk up the valve.
If you ride a lot, I doubt your tyre will last more than 6 months anyway

JoostG

Rocketm0n wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Ber Nard wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Ber Nard wrote:

Admittedly I've not looked into tubeless tyres too much but the whole "no punctures" thing; surely that's just down to the sealant and, therefore, putting it in regular clinchers or tubs would give the same level of (barring pinch flats) puncture protection? Or is the sealant in there for another reason and just so happens to boost puncture protection?

Also, you can't remove the sealant from the inner tube... OK, they are cheap and cheerful creatures, but will you remember to bin them every 3/6 months?

I hadn't realized that the sealant only lasted that long. At £60 a pair I'd hope that my Schwalbe Ones might last more than 3/6 months, especially the front. Changing the sealant before changing the tyre(s) sounds like an unwanted and messy chore!

Not at all. I dismount only a 25cm part of the tubeless tyre (one side) every 3 months to check the sealant (as you don't realize you have a punctures most of the time, sealant will diminish without knowing) and add some extra (matter of aiming). So far no problems with valves.

I'm doing more mileage with Schwalbe tubeless tyres than with conventional clinchers in the past: I don't worry anymore about flats (so why replace old tyres ) and they remain longer round.