Will riding a 6% hill using 34/23 relate to riding 8% 34/28

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  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Tom Dean wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    ...strength (or whatever you might want to call it )...
    Whatever you might want to call what?

    sorry i missed out the word training, so "strength training"
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    [Edit] I posted the following before reading the link OwenB provided in an earlier post. Had I read it I wouldn't have bothered. His approach is pretty much what i was trying to describe!
    Imposter wrote:
    The definition of strength does not change with age. What you are referring to as 'strength' - isn't.
    We've had this debate multiple times before and always end up going round in circles, largely because we're using common terms but understanding some of them differently and also because there's a temptation to over-simplify.
    So yet again, if "strength" refers to maximum force one can apply to the pedals for a few seconds throughout the range of motion of a pedal stroke then I would very firmly disagree that enough strength to climb a stairs is necessarily enough strength for endurance riding.
    The closer the force required is to the maximum achievable momentary force, the fewer repetitions or the shorter period of times it can be sustained for. The closer to maximum effort you are the more quickly muscle damage is accumulated. If you want to turn the pedals for hours, you need the force per revolution to be well below maximum the vast majority of the time.

    However I think the most important thing is being accustomed to the position and intensity required. I've been running a lot and cycling very little for the past 4 months. My main running goal is now behind me and I've just started trying to regain my cycling form for a number of sportives and triathlons I'm due to take part in over the summer. As soon as I got back on the bike I realised I was substantially slower and poorer at climbing compared to the last couple of years. However my HR and breathing were pretty pedestrian while I was wrestling with the pedals. It appears my heart's in good shape and I've got plenty red blood cells circulating but my legs are really struggling to turn the pedals and I can feel lactate building much quicker than I remember when I try a short hard effort. I put all of this down to the simple fact that cycling puts different demands on my musculature than running and I've obviously and predictably lost some of the cycling specific adaptation that had occurred previously. I can still ride for hours at a moderate intensity and I can still develop good power, briefly. However if I try to sustain high power, I start suffering much quicker than I'd expect. Whether my ability in terms of maximum force on the pedals has been affected or not I don't know, I don't think it's down much as I can still sprint fairly well as long as I keep it very brief. Lactate definitely builds quicker and at lower effort so either my muscles are producing more lactate for the power produced or, more likely, some specific areas are less effective than previously at removing it.

    During the summer I ride mostly on the flat during the week but I head for the hills at the weekends. These climbs include one around 1.3km that averages maybe 12% and reaches about 18% near the top, a few around 2 to 3.5km averaging 9 or 10% with sections of 12-13% and one 6.5km long and averaging 6.5%. Good cycling terrain but all climbs are much shorter than a big alpine one. When I went to Tenerife and climbed Mt Teide I was surprised to find that I got on just fine most of the way up. I sometimes struggle on 3km climbs of similar gradient at home and yet on Teide I was still in decent shape most of the way to the top of a non-stop 35km climb to 2200m. The difference is that when you know it's going to take hours you're far less likely to start too fast and start suffering after a few hundred meters. In fairness Teide is tough but not massively steep as it only averages about 6.5% (although there are long stretches of 9-11% in the last 12km IIRC). Not having done one, I presume a steeper Alpine climb will be similar providing your fitness and gear selection allow you to maintain a somewhat reasonable cadence. If you can't achieve a pace that you can settle into (let's say 9km/h, 65rpm as minimums at a HR you can maintain for a couple of hours) you may be in trouble.


    In summary: I don't accept that leg maximum force is irrelevant but I also don't think it's necessarily the biggest problem and certainly not the only one. If I want to get good on hills, I generally ride hills. If I didn't have hills available, I'd spend some time doing long hard efforts at slightly lower than usual cadence (since this is often necessary on steep inclines). Psychologically a long climb is quite different to a short one. If the gradient is at least manageable at a slow pace then you'll find a sustainable speed and settle into the climb. You'll be less inclined to overdo it early on as can often happen on shorter climbs.
  • sloppyschleckonds
    sloppyschleckonds Posts: 8,019
    mamba80 wrote:
    On my 3 rd visit to Majorca, i am climbing faster, pushing a bigger gear and packed in 34 hours of riding, all in the mountains, endurance up, rides up to 6 hours, all in 8 days, with one rest day, i was also riding with a guy who is on BC ODA program and could just about keep with him.

    Well done Champ
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    SloppySchleckonds wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    On my 3 rd visit to Majorca, i am climbing faster, pushing a bigger gear and packed in 34 hours of riding, all in the mountains, endurance up, rides up to 6 hours, all in 8 days, with one rest day, i was also riding with a guy who is on BC ODA program and could just about keep with him.

    Well done Champ

    ha ha thank god you keep me real :lol:
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Ai_1 wrote:
    So yet again, if "strength" refers to maximum force one can apply to the pedals for a few seconds throughout the range of motion of a pedal stroke then I would very firmly disagree that enough strength to climb a stairs is necessarily enough strength for endurance riding.
    It doesn't
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Ai_1 wrote:
    So yet again, if "strength" refers to maximum force one can apply to the pedals for a few seconds throughout the range of motion of a pedal stroke then I would very firmly disagree that enough strength to climb a stairs is necessarily enough strength for endurance riding.
    It doesn't
    Thanks, that's helpful.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Ai_1 wrote:
    So yet again, if "strength" refers to maximum force one can apply to the pedals for a few seconds throughout the range of motion of a pedal stroke then I would very firmly disagree that enough strength to climb a stairs is necessarily enough strength for endurance riding.
    It doesn't

    it doesn't, what?
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    mamba80 wrote:
    it doesn't, what?
    refer to maximum force one can apply to the pedals for a few seconds throughout the range of motion of a pedal stroke
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    Tom Dean wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    it doesn't, what?
    refer to maximum force one can apply to the pedals for a few seconds throughout the range of motion of a pedal stroke
    It does in my post.
    The entire point of the sentence you disputed was that anyone talking about strength in this context needs to define what they mean by strength as it's an ambiguous term otherwise and just causes confusion.
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    If you're just giving one example of a wrong definition of strength, fine, but the part I put in italics makes the comparison with climbing the stairs nonsensical.
    Ai_1 wrote:
    The closer the force required is to the maximum achievable momentary force, the fewer repetitions or the shorter period of times it can be sustained for. The closer to maximum effort you are the more quickly muscle damage is accumulated. If you want to turn the pedals for hours, you need the force per revolution to be well below maximum the vast majority of the time.
    The point is that you never get close to the maximum in endurance cycling.

    FWIW my take is that resistance training may well confer benefits especially for older riders and to address specific imbalances. Increased strength in the range of motion of pedalling is not one of them. Whether resistance training is time and energy well spent compared to riding your bike is another question...
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Tom Dean wrote:
    FWIW my take is that resistance training may well confer benefits especially for older riders and to address specific imbalances. Increased strength in the range of motion of pedalling is not one of them. Whether resistance training is time and energy well spent compared to riding your bike is another question...

    this is of course anecdotal.... but all i know is that over the last 4 or 5 years i ve noticed my sustained climbing and racing (RR and TT) ability has declined, despite training more, both in time and intensity.
    So i decided to do abit more running over winter, combined with some pretty low level weight training at home, on the bike, some hi gear low cadence stuff.
    Once i started increasing volume (and stopped running) and recently intensity, i m riding better than for years, as far as im aware, i ve no muscle imbalances but as i got older, i just got weaker.
    Giving over a couple of hours per week, in the evenings (when i wouldnt be riding anyway) to some some specific weight training has, for me, been the best use of my time.
    Did i need to do this when i was racing in my 20s? no but in my 50s, a definite yes.
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    Back to OT.

    There are lots of threads on how to train for climbing mountains as opposed to hills. The key difference is that they stress completely different systems. Hills can be done in VO2 or high threshold zone. You should never ever hit this zone on mountains unless you are in a full on race that you are trying to win. Rather you will be in tempo or, if aiming to go as fast as possible, sweetspot.

    So the best training for mountains in the absence of the real thing is long steady efforts on the flat or turbo. 25 mile time trials are a good example.

    That said hills are useful training
    > VO2 training should be part of your routine, it will help boost threshold power which in turn will make your mountain climbing power higher and/or more comfortable

    > You need to have the right gearing. Primarily this is to allow you to ride mountains at the same cadence as you train at. Hills like the OP are good for this. You can even go so far as to do it "scientifically".

    A >> Go to this linkhttp://bikecalculator.com/index.html and enter some basic data about yourself and the local hill. You don't need a power meter, just need average speed (IMPORTANT: As per above this is not your PB its the speed you climb in the "tempo" zone you will be doing mountains in)
    B>> Change the gradient from your hill to the mountain you are planning to climb (Ideally check climbbybike and look at its profile. Some climbs are constant, for other the average gradient can be misleading hide long double digit sections .e.g. Marie Blanque http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?qryMountainID=6258 averages a mild 7.5% but its the 3km at 10% plus that need to be geared for.
    C>> This will give you the speed you will manage on a mountain. This can be handy when setting time targets if you have not ridden mountains before,
    D>> Using this put your gears into this http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/ or similar. You should find that you can hit the speed from C while doing your preferred rpm. Really you should find that you can hit it with at least one gear in hand, preferably two.
    E>> If not then consider more gears, there simply is no downside in having too many small ratios, not having enough will be a showstopper
    F>> once sorted you can use the calculation from A to climb your "hill" at the power/cadence you will riding up mountains. Interspersing this with harder VO2 efforts is great training and helps you check your riding position is comfortable.
    Martin S. Newbury RC

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