fm098 and fm099 venge copies

spectastic

I'm wondering if anyone owned and can comment on either of these two frames, their origins, manufacturing process, and how they ride compared to the real deal.

I'm told by a FM099 supplier that it uses 1 piece construction in the head tube and bottom bracket. Also, it uses Torey T800 carbon. However, it does not use the same mold as specialized venge, even though the FM099 looks a lot more like the venge than the FM098

DKay

The FM099 is a blatent Venge rip-off, so I would avoid that like the plague. The FM098 though, is a completely different frame and doesn't share any similarity with a Venge except at a cursory glance.

The FM098 has been available for a few years now and has a very good reputation. I've not heard any bad stories about it and Deng-Fu have sold a lot. It's supposed to be a fast frame and ride pretty stiff and responsive. A fair few pop-up brands use the same frame, painted in their colours and charge three times the price for it.

spectastic

DKay wrote:

The FM099 is a blatent Venge rip-off, so I would avoid that like the plague. The FM098 though, is a completely different frame and doesn't share any similarity with a Venge except at a cursory glance.

The FM098 has been available for a few years now and has a very good reputation. I've not heard any bad stories about it and Deng-Fu have sold a lot. It's supposed to be a fast frame and ride pretty stiff and responsive. A fair few pop-up brands use the same frame, painted in their colours and charge three times the price for it.

why?

I mean that's why I was leaning towards a fm099, because I want a better aero profile

DKay

Because it's a fake, counterfeit frame, that's why. Who knows what kind of structural compromises have been made in order for it look like a Venge. The FM098 is a good, known quantity and quality.

However, if you're happy buying a blatant fake in the pursuit of 'a better aero profile', then go right ahead.

spectastic

DKay wrote:

Because it's a fake, counterfeit frame, that's why. Who knows what kind of structural compromises have been made in order for it look like a Venge. The FM098 is a good, known quantity and quality.

However, if you're happy buying a blatant fake in the pursuit of 'a better aero profile', then go right ahead.

the supplier for the fm099 told me it uses 1 piece construction in the head tube and bottom bracket. it also uses torey T800 carbon, which I presume is what the FM098 uses as well. I wonder what makes you automatically assume that just because it's an imitation, then it's likely dangerous.

Ber Nard

DKay wrote:

Because it's a fake, counterfeit frame, that's why. Who knows what kind of structural compromises have been made in order for it look like a Venge. The FM098 is a good, known quantity and quality.

However, if you're happy buying a blatant fake in the pursuit of 'a better aero profile', then go right ahead.

It would only be a fake if it was sold as a Specialised Venge. As it is, it's just a copy. You could argue that a copy of a proven design would be better than a design that has no provenance or R&D behind it. I could design a bike and have it made in China; it probably wouldn't be much good, though.

DKay

spectastic wrote:

DKay wrote:

Because it's a fake, counterfeit frame, that's why. Who knows what kind of structural compromises have been made in order for it look like a Venge. The FM098 is a good, known quantity and quality.

However, if you're happy buying a blatant fake in the pursuit of 'a better aero profile', then go right ahead.

the supplier for the fm099 told me it uses 1 piece construction in the head tube and bottom bracket. it also uses torey T800 carbon, which I presume is what the FM098 uses as well. I wonder what makes you automatically assume that just because it's an imitation, then it's likely dangerous.

I never said that it's likely to be dangerous. So what if it's 1-piece construction or uses T800 carbon. These things on their own don't mean much.

diamonddog

TBH I doubt you would notice a difference between the two regarding 'a better aero profile' so get the one you like best, personally I would go for the one with the more proven history.

DKay

Ber Nard wrote:

It would only be a fake if it was sold as a Specialised Venge. As it is, it's just a copy. You could argue that a copy of a proven design would be better than a design that has no provenance or R&D behind it. I could design a bike and have it made in China; it probably wouldn't be much good, though.

This assumes that the copy is constructed with a comparable lay-up, materials and methods of the original. I could print off a colour copy of the Mona Lisa and it would look pretty similar to the original painting from ten paces.

The FM098 in contrast actually has a lot of history, reputation and R&D behind it. A lot more so than the Venge copy. People also have a lot fewer issues building them up. But, if the OP is happy with the latter, then so be it. I've given my advice and opinion on the matter.

Ber Nard

DKay wrote:

Ber Nard wrote:

It would only be a fake if it was sold as a Specialised Venge. As it is, it's just a copy. You could argue that a copy of a proven design would be better than a design that has no provenance or R&D behind it. I could design a bike and have it made in China; it probably wouldn't be much good, though.

This assumes that the copy is constructed with a comparable lay-up, materials and methods of the original. I could print off a colour copy of the Mona Lisa and it would look pretty similar to the original painting from ten paces.

The FM098 in contrast actually has a lot of history, reputation and R&D behind it. A lot more so than the Venge copy. People also have a lot fewer issues building them up. But, if the OP is happy with the latter, then so be it. I've given my advice and opinion on the matter.

Does it? Do any of these frames?

trailflow

The FM098 has plenty of feedback on Road Bike Review forums. There are a number of threads about chinese carbon frames with over 200 pages spanning from 2010. If your interested in reading through them.

spectastic

it sounds to me like the fm099 is being shafted just for being new.

spectastic

DKay wrote:

spectastic wrote:

DKay wrote:

Because it's a fake, counterfeit frame, that's why. Who knows what kind of structural compromises have been made in order for it look like a Venge. The FM098 is a good, known quantity and quality.

However, if you're happy buying a blatant fake in the pursuit of 'a better aero profile', then go right ahead.

the supplier for the fm099 told me it uses 1 piece construction in the head tube and bottom bracket. it also uses torey T800 carbon, which I presume is what the FM098 uses as well. I wonder what makes you automatically assume that just because it's an imitation, then it's likely dangerous.

I never said that it's likely to be dangerous. So what if it's 1-piece construction or uses T800 carbon. These things on their own don't mean much.

so you don't think the plague (what you used to describe the FM099) is dangerous?

trailflow

Which seller/company do you plan to buy the FM099 from ?

DKay

spectastic wrote:

DKay wrote:

spectastic wrote:

DKay wrote:

Because it's a fake, counterfeit frame, that's why. Who knows what kind of structural compromises have been made in order for it look like a Venge. The FM098 is a good, known quantity and quality.

However, if you're happy buying a blatant fake in the pursuit of 'a better aero profile', then go right ahead.

the supplier for the fm099 told me it uses 1 piece construction in the head tube and bottom bracket. it also uses torey T800 carbon, which I presume is what the FM098 uses as well. I wonder what makes you automatically assume that just because it's an imitation, then it's likely dangerous.

I never said that it's likely to be dangerous. So what if it's 1-piece construction or uses T800 carbon. These things on their own don't mean much.

so you don't think the plague (what you used to describe the FM099) is dangerous?

You obviously sound determined to buy the fake Venge frame regardless. You also seemed determined to pick argument with anything that has been suggested. You came here for advice, it's been given, but you won't accept it. I can see you doing exactly the same thing with the same thread you posted on the roadbikereview forum, even going so far as to regurgitate Bar Nerds words from his post above. In fact, you come across suspiciously like a member who has been banned in multiple guises over the past few months.....

I'm done debating with you on this matter. Buy what you like. Good day.

mroli

spectastic wrote:

so you don't think the plague (what you used to describe the FM099) is dangerous?

Dude - that is taking being literal to its ends. The bloke has an opinion on this. Just because it doesn't match what you think, there's no need to be a pain about it. He doesn't like the FM099. He has given you some reasons for it. If you chose to disregard those reasons then that's cool, its your money. But don't be a pain about it - you came on asking for help, he gave you some. Just say "thank you, but I disagree" and let's all move on - yes?

Ber Nard

My point is these factories are employed to mass manufacture other company's designs. They have the technology to produce their own versions and do so as a very profitable sideline.

What it boils down to is that all of these frame are essentially the same; they're built down to a price. Just pick the on you like the look of most.

spectastic

trailflow wrote:

Which seller/company do you plan to buy the FM099 from ?

the only one I found so far is a seller on alibaba. I don't remember their name off the top ofmy head, but they're based on Shenzhen. I've read feedback from people who know more than me to avoid chinese frames, and that Taiwanese frames are the way to go because that's the hub of cycling manufacturing. i don't know where dengfu gets their fm098 frames from though. But I'd like to know more. that's why Im here.

spectastic

DKay wrote:

spectastic wrote:

DKay wrote:

spectastic wrote:

DKay wrote:

Because it's a fake, counterfeit frame, that's why. Who knows what kind of structural compromises have been made in order for it look like a Venge. The FM098 is a good, known quantity and quality.

However, if you're happy buying a blatant fake in the pursuit of 'a better aero profile', then go right ahead.

the supplier for the fm099 told me it uses 1 piece construction in the head tube and bottom bracket. it also uses torey T800 carbon, which I presume is what the FM098 uses as well. I wonder what makes you automatically assume that just because it's an imitation, then it's likely dangerous.

I never said that it's likely to be dangerous. So what if it's 1-piece construction or uses T800 carbon. These things on their own don't mean much.

so you don't think the plague (what you used to describe the FM099) is dangerous?

You obviously sound determined to buy the fake Venge frame regardless. You also seemed determined to pick argument with anything that has been suggested. You came here for advice, it's been given, but you won't accept it. I can see you doing exactly the same thing with the same thread you posted on the roadbikereview forum, even going so far as to regurgitate Bar Nerds words from his post above. In fact, you come across suspiciously like a member who has been banned in multiple guises over the past few months.....

I'm done debating with you on this matter. Buy what you like. Good day.

oh sh*t, you caught me sherlock.. ok I don't mean to be a pain in the ass. but I don't like it when someone tells me something to convince me in one direction, without any substance. So far, I've learned absolutely nothing, other than DKay has an aversion for unbranded chinese frames that he seems to know nothing about

sloppyschleckonds

I agree with DKay, you're wasting peoples time

kajjal

DKays advice on the differences in production and quality control are also important. buying direct from a Chinese supplier always has a risk even if you do a lot of research. It is up to the buyer if they feel the risk is worth taking. I wouldn't bother for key important components like a bike frame but other may want to.

DKay

The thing is, according his thread on RBR; the OP is convinced that the counterfeit frames are made in the same factories as the real frames, only they're made on the sly. I'd post a link to the thread on here, but it seems to have been pulled by the mods. No doubt, because he called another member a 'moron' when they challenged him about his questionable attitude.

sloppyschleckonds

The idiots next thread will be " I bought a Venge copy frame and it failed"

DKay

Maybe, maybe not. I'm actually more bothered that people are knowlingly buying knock-off goods and I don't care much if the frame fails on them. The fake frame is probably fine to ride in terms of safety, but anybody buying such a frame knowingly takes that risk. My take is this; if you can't afford a Venge, then buy something else. The FM098 is a great frame with lots of positive feedback (I have a pretty good idea who makes them and who was behind the design, but refuse to share this with somebody so belligerent), so why anybody would take a punt on a fake Venge instead is a mystery, even though it might have a 'better aero profile'.

spectastic

it's amazing to me how people's internet hormones start going out of control when they get challenged to provide support for what they say. I never meant for this to turn into a slug fest. I was asking a question, and my challenges to the bland answers are taken to offense, which is pathetic. I never said the venge copies are made in the same factory as the real factories, only that many unbranded frames are. And people should have a little more respect when they use terms like "counterfeits" "knock offs" etc., as if everything coming from overseas that doesn't have a brand painted on it is somehow inferior to everything else that comes from overseas that has what is essentially a $400 pj. what bothers me is that people don't seem to know that all bikes fail, yet only unbranded frames get the highlight. I know there are REAL counterfeits (eg. ILLEGAL fakes with printed logos), but lumping those and unbranded frames together is ignorant and stupid.

And this isnt about being or not being able to afford venge frames. I have a venge. This is about finding the truth beyond the marketing bullsh*t that corporations cram down people's throats.

DKay

spectastic wrote:

And this isnt about being or not being able to afford venge frames. I have a venge. This is about finding the truth beyond the marketing bullsh*t that corporations cram down people's throats.

You already have a Venge? Wow, that's a big upgrade from the discount Kestrel Evoke you bought from bikesdirect around 19 months ago. Good for you. Although, if you already have a Venge, I'm very puzzled as to why you have already said things such as;

spectastic wrote:

I mean that's why I was leaning towards a fm099, because I want a better aero profile

and...

spectastic wrote:

trailflow wrote:

Which seller/company do you plan to buy the FM099 from ?

the only one I found so far is a seller on alibaba. I don't remember their name off the top ofmy head, but they're based on Shenzhen.

Do you want a fake Venge to go with your real one as part of your 'research' and carbon bike crusade? That's admirable dedication if so.

spectastic

your personal attacks are adorable DKay. I could just pinch your little cheeks and hug you like a teddy bear

but to answer your concerns. I never bought the evoke. they ran out of stock before I could order it, but I'm warmed by your persistence in searching through my profile. good for you

I've expressed interest in the fm099. I never said I was going to order it. But yes, I was thinking about using one as my training bike and comparing the two. my hunch tells me that if the fm099 comes from a reputable manufacturer, then the difference is nearly none, much like comparing specialized to sworks. But I'm having trouble finding the information on the fm099, especially with people like you who know nothing about it trolling my what was supposed to be an informative thread. thanks, guy. why don't you also follow me on bikeforums. I'm more active there

DKay

spectastic wrote:

And people should have a little more respect when they use terms like "counterfeits" "knock offs" etc., as if everything coming from overseas that doesn't have a brand painted on it is somehow inferior to everything else that comes from overseas that has what is essentially a $400 pj.

Here is an old picture of my Cayo Evo. The unbranded carbon wheels were bought from Yishunbike in 2011. They were great (until I sold them to a mate who somehow exploded the front rim while fitting a new tyre).

spectastic

DKay wrote:

spectastic wrote:

And people should have a little more respect when they use terms like "counterfeits" "knock offs" etc., as if everything coming from overseas that doesn't have a brand painted on it is somehow inferior to everything else that comes from overseas that has what is essentially a $400 pj.

Here is an old picture of my Cayo Evo. The unbranded carbon wheels were bought from Yishunbike in 2011. They were great (until I sold them to a mate who somehow exploded the front rim while fitting a new tyre).

right.. so you gave him his money back, right?

wait I thought you said the fm098 is a reputable model. so are you taking that back and now attacking some obscure wheel retailer to prove your point?

trailflow

If i had a real Venge i would ride it and i wouldn't look twice at a fake/lookalike for 'training'. There would be nothing to gain.

DKay

spectastic wrote:

DKay wrote:

spectastic wrote:

And people should have a little more respect when they use terms like "counterfeits" "knock offs" etc., as if everything coming from overseas that doesn't have a brand painted on it is somehow inferior to everything else that comes from overseas that has what is essentially a $400 pj.

Here is an old picture of my Cayo Evo. The unbranded carbon wheels were bought from Yishunbike in 2011. They were great (until I sold them to a mate who somehow exploded the front rim while fitting a new tyre).

wait I thought you said the fm098 is a reputable model. so are you taking that back and now attacking some obscure wheel retailer to prove your point?

Yishun aren't an obscure wheel retailer. They were the best Chinese carbon wheel supplier, but have since been overtaken by the likes of Farsports and Yoeleo. As far as I'm aware, Yishun still make good wheels. The point was, I'm not biased towards unbranded Chinese carbon goods (when they aren't knock-offs) as I've had a good experience with some of them first-hand over an extended length of time.

But seriously dude, I've had enough of you to last a lifetime and you are probably prepared to stoop to depths to which I am not. So I bid you adieu.