How will Disk Brakes change things?

iron-clover

So, I've just read on Road CC that they have heard from reliable sources that the UCI will be making an announcement very soon approving the use of disk brakes in road races from 2017 (the season after next- they want the pro teams to have time to make changes).

I don't think it'll be such an issue for the pros- they will ride whatever they are told to ride and I expect they will all make the jump at once (the manufacturers want to advertise their shiny new kit) but what about the amateurs?

Do you think it will be safe to have disks and caliper brakes mixed in the same group, for example in 4th and 3rd cat bunches? I don't have a disk equipped bike yet (I'm hoping to finally get a cyclocross bike this year which will have them) and don't know how much difference they make over well maintained caliper brakes- I imagine mechanical disks would be around the same as good alloy caliper or a bit better, but hydraulics to be a different league.

I would hate to have to change bikes when the rules come in...

tgotb

From my experience in CX, I dont think it'll make any difference at all; disk brakes are waaaaay more powerful that cantis, and yet the two co-exist quite happily. The pros haven't switched en mass either; LVDH has now raced two seasons on disks, most pros have yet to make the change. As more than one pro rider has said, "Brakes don't make you faster".

From a road perspective, well set up calipers are also way better than CX cantis. Although calipers and disks have their pros and cons, ultimate braking power is down to your tyres. Either will give you the ability to lock the back wheel or throw yourself over the handlebars...

iron-clover

I've never seen any issues with disks in CX racing though- especially in the amateur scene as the races tend to spread into individual efforts with the occasional small group, plus the speeds are slower so if things go wrong there's less of an issue (and disks off road make so much more sense than cantilever brakes- I find them poor compared to dual pivots even before mud is involved...) but I'm more thinking of a massed bunch where you will have at least a couple of times where half the field has to slam on the brakes because something silly has happened further up where the higher speeds and smaller distances come into play.

tgotb

If people in a high-speed bunch are slamming on the brakes to avoid something up ahead, individual rider skill is going to be far more of a factor than the type of brake; both give you the ability to lock either wheel (which is generally going to be a bad thing).

imposter2.0

I don't really see a problem with a mix, which it will probably end up being. I also can't really see the same type of 'mass migration' happening in amateur ranks as you might see in the pro ranks when the change comes.

On the upside though, it should mean some fairly tasty bargains for rim-braked wheels over the next couple of years, for anyone who wants to stay on calipers.

tgotb

I'm not convinced we'll see a mass migration, even in the pro ranks; it hasn't happened in CX, and if anything the manufacturers have a stronger case for pushing it there.

If the bike weight limit comes down - as seems likely - disk brakes are likely to carry a weight penalty which will make them a disadvantage on mountain stages; on flat stages they will probably cary an aero penalty. The one thing maufacturers have been pushing hard recently is aero road bikes, and it's hard to see them pushing out a top-end road bike which tests worse in the wind tunnel than their competitor's, because it has discs.

sheffsimon

TGOTB wrote:

I'm not convinced we'll see a mass migration, even in the pro ranks; it hasn't happened in CX, and if anything the manufacturers have a stronger case for pushing it there.

If the bike weight limit comes down - as seems likely - disk brakes are likely to carry a weight penalty which will make them a disadvantage on mountain stages; on flat stages they will probably cary an aero penalty. The one thing maufacturers have been pushing hard recently is aero road bikes, and it's hard to see them pushing out a top-end road bike which tests worse in the wind tunnel than their competitor's, because it has discs.

And they look horrible on a road bike...

kajjal

Mixing quality hydraulic disc brakes with rim brakes will be potentially dangerous in tightly packed groups. The riders with disc brakes will have much more power and control / feel over their braking, especially in the wet. This means they can brake harder and later than those on rim brakes. The rim brake riders could then go straight through the back of them.

Having used both types of brakes there is a very noticeable difference in power and control / feel. Cable disc brakes are not the same in performance as hydraulics but do work well in the wet.

Ber Nard

Kajjal wrote:

Mixing quality hydraulic disc brakes with rim brakes will be potentially dangerous in tightly packed groups. The riders with disc brakes will have much more power and control / feel over their braking, especially in the wet. This means they can brake harder and later than those on rim brakes. The rim brake riders could then go straight through the back of them.

If someone slams on the brakes in the middle of a tightly packed bunch, there's likely to be a pile-up whatever brakes are used.

kajjal

Ber Nard wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

Mixing quality hydraulic disc brakes with rim brakes will be potentially dangerous in tightly packed groups. The riders with disc brakes will have much more power and control / feel over their braking, especially in the wet. This means they can brake harder and later than those on rim brakes. The rim brake riders could then go straight through the back of them.

If someone slams on the brakes in the middle of a tightly packed bunch, there's likely to be a pile-up whatever brakes are used.

True enough but a mixture of disc brakes and rim brakes makes it more risky in general, especially in the wet where the difference in braking is more apparent.

sheffsimon

Kajjal wrote:

Ber Nard wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

Mixing quality hydraulic disc brakes with rim brakes will be potentially dangerous in tightly packed groups. The riders with disc brakes will have much more power and control / feel over their braking, especially in the wet. This means they can brake harder and later than those on rim brakes. The rim brake riders could then go straight through the back of them.

If someone slams on the brakes in the middle of a tightly packed bunch, there's likely to be a pile-up whatever brakes are used.

True enough but a mixture of disc brakes and rim brakes makes it more risky in general, especially in the wet where the difference in braking is more apparent.

I disagree. The limit on braking is not locking the wheels up, or sliding them in the wet, and I can do that with my rim brakes.

tgotb

Kajjal wrote:

True enough but a mixture of disc brakes and rim brakes makes it more risky in general, especially in the wet where the difference in braking is more apparent.

In my experience, the difference between a well-set-up disc and a well-set-up caliper brake is much smaller than the difference between a well-set-up caliper and a poorly-set-up one (of which you see plenty at races). I should imagine that the difference between different riders' reactions and technique makes an even bigger difference. So yes, the two brake types perform slightly differently, but this difference is tiny compared with the difference caused by other factors that already exist.

kajjal

SheffSimon wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

Ber Nard wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

Mixing quality hydraulic disc brakes with rim brakes will be potentially dangerous in tightly packed groups. The riders with disc brakes will have much more power and control / feel over their braking, especially in the wet. This means they can brake harder and later than those on rim brakes. The rim brake riders could then go straight through the back of them.

If someone slams on the brakes in the middle of a tightly packed bunch, there's likely to be a pile-up whatever brakes are used.

True enough but a mixture of disc brakes and rim brakes makes it more risky in general, especially in the wet where the difference in braking is more apparent.

I disagree. The limit on braking is not locking the wheels up, or sliding them in the wet, and I can do that with my rim brakes.

Disc brakes are about not locking wheels up due to having more power and better control / feel than rim brakes. You can hold a bike on and feel the edge of traction better with disc brakes.

kajjal

TGOTB wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

True enough but a mixture of disc brakes and rim brakes makes it more risky in general, especially in the wet where the difference in braking is more apparent.

In my experience, the difference between a well-set-up disc and a well-set-up caliper brake is much smaller than the difference between a well-set-up caliper and a poorly-set-up one (of which you see plenty at races). I should imagine that the difference between different riders' reactions and technique makes an even bigger difference. So yes, the two brake types perform slightly differently, but this difference is tiny compared with the difference caused by other factors that already exist.

In my experience riding with hydraulic discs (not cable) on a hilly run with many tight corners I was noticeably faster due to being able to brake later and sometimes not brake at all due to increased confidence in the brakes if I needed them. Anyone racing on a poorly maintained bike and not training enough is giving themselves a lot to overcome and disc brakes, expensive bikes etc. won't make up for that.

tgotb

Kajjal wrote:

In my experience riding with hydraulic discs (not cable) on a hilly run with many tight corners I was noticeably faster due to being able to brake later and sometimes not brake at all due to increased confidence in the brakes if I needed them. Anyone racing on a poorly maintained bike and not training enough is giving themselves a lot to overcome and disc brakes, expensive bikes etc. won't make up for that.

That's exactly my point. Poor brake maintenance and technique make far more of a difference, and that already exists today...

markos1963

Since when did anyone win a race by having the best brakes?

Monty Dog

It will make b*gger-all difference IMO, the strongest, cleverest rider usually wins and it's got f-all to do with brakes - trouble is it's not the story that bike company PR-folks and cycling hacks want to hear.

solosuperia

Not a lot!
How often do you use the full power of your brakes in a race.......
99.9% of the time it is just a case of feathering the brakes to set yourself up for a corner or suchlike.
Ride near the front with an escape route, you won't have to slam your brakes on hard knowing you are going to collect somebody from behind!

Grill

Cat 4 crits will be bloodbaths...

imposter2.0

Grill wrote:

Cat 4 crits will be bloodbaths...

I don't see why...

Grill

Imposter wrote:

Grill wrote:

Cat 4 crits will be bloodbaths...

I don't see why...

100 choppers crashing into each other with sharp blades and unprotected flesh everywhere... You do the maths.

imposter2.0

Grill wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Grill wrote:

Cat 4 crits will be bloodbaths...

I don't see why...

100 choppers crashing into each other with sharp blades and unprotected flesh everywhere... You do the maths.

You rarely (if ever) see disk-related injuries in motorcycle racing - SBK, MotoGP or even motocross. I still can't see it.

Grill

There still isn't a discipline using disc brakes that sees the volume or proximity of bodies as road/crit racing. I saw a video of the latest Castle Coombe crit and there were over a hundred riders up each others asses. All it takes is one idiot (and there's always one) to bring down a few dozen. IF discs become legal there will be injuries as a result.

cynicalrider

I've done some crits on my cross bike with hydro di2 and 160mm discs, about as powerful as you can get on a road bike. It makes little to no difference, in terms of the variability of braking power in the bunch. Anyone who talks about 'slamming on' is missing the point. Disc brakes give far more modulation than rim brakes, especially in the wet. If anything slamming on is less likely. But don't let that stop those with no experience casting judgements.

DavidJB

Will make Neutral Service cars jobs a PITA.

imposter2.0

cynicalrider wrote:

I've done some crits on my cross bike with hydro di2 and 160mm discs, about as powerful as you can get on a road bike. It makes little to no difference, in terms of the variability of braking power in the bunch. Anyone who talks about 'slamming on' is missing the point. Disc brakes give far more modulation than rim brakes, especially in the wet. If anything slamming on is less likely. But don't let that stop those with no experience casting judgements.

As a matter of interest, where were these crits?

Lookyhere

yeah i d like to know that too

given that hitting the road at any speed bl00dy hurts, i doubt the tiny risk of a disc causing injury will make much difference, might as will argue a handle bar end could take your eye out.

for me this is about giving the big manufactures a chance to shift new bikes to the masses, you cant upgrade any existing equipment to disks.
Never in a race have i wished for better brakes, UK amateur races (in the main) are just not run on the sort of roads where braking is an issue, i m not a pro, so i dont know what their needs are.
I m just pi55ed off that yet again, the lowly amateur or parent of junior/youth racer will be faced with obsolete kit and more expense, i cant see that uci/bc will allow mixed rim and disc braked bikes in the same race.
leisure riding/training? yeah rim wear and braking on steep descents, why not.

DeVlaeminck

I doubt they will insist aMateur races are all disc brake affairs in the short term - it'd have a huge impact on racing and potentially drive many races to switch to TLI if they choose not to follow suit. I mean a decent disc equipped race bike and race ready wheels is going to come in about 2k up for most people - I know you can get cheaper but few race on entry level stuff - can't see making everyone get a new race bike in oneWinter is likely - would the industry even have capacity to supply enough bikes if that was enforced internationally?

gaffer_slow

can't race on disc in UK : imagine that will change, likely some disappointed/pissed off racers

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/scotl ... entering-0

Riders have been using Disc brakes on their bikes

Currently UCI and BC do not permit the use of disc brakes on road bikes and UCI are currently investigating their use in the future. Scottish Cycling generally align to both UCI and British Cycling rules and we agree with the rationale behind not allowing this piece of equipment. After consultation with BC and some of our Senior Commissaires the Scottish Cycling Road and Track Events Commission have decided until further notice that ‘no disk brakes should be used in a road race, closed circuit race and time trials in Scotland. We will continue to monitor the responses from UCI and British Cycling in regards to this matter.

mamba80

i agree that BC wont allow mixed racing, esp in youth or junior, if there is just the hint of a safety issue they ll have to err on the safe side.
the whole thing is just a means to shift more bikes but it could back fire, many recent converts to cycling may not appreciate being used as a cash cow, plenty of other sports to choose from.

On the plus side, they ll soon be a web site where you can sell your pre 2017 bike for a premium to punters who want to ride in a classic Italian sportive that only allows rim braked bikes.

DeVlaeminck

I can't see it, but I can even less see them insisting on one thing for youth and junior and letting seniors ride mixed.