fear of flying

mr_goo

I love the take-off. The bit in the middle is quite boring, so good book needed. I hate the landing, this probably caused by once having landed in a severe crosswind and being able to see up the runway just before touch down.

bianchimoon

Mr Goo wrote:

I love the take-off. The bit in the middle is quite boring, so good book needed. I hate the landing, this probably caused by once having landed in a severe crosswind and being able to see up the runway just before touch down.

I landed once in a storm at Gatwick, very scary, the guy sat behind me had been quiet a loudmouth at the holiday resort, I looked round his wife was cuddling him and he was in tears, nothing like a bit of fear to bring people down to earth

morstar

I share the control issues already mentioned and am not a big fan of flying in the same way I don't like crewing a sailing boat. Put me at the controls and it's very different.
I have had one flying lesson as a birthday present. Glad to have done it but not bitten by the bug. My brother flew a plane at the age of 14, set his heart on becoming a pilot and executed his wish. Only job he's ever done with one company too.
It's not the same as a car as it's not visual, it's vehicle management. Planning routes, programming systems and calculating fuel.
Were I to have taken the controls of a commercial airliner for a few minutes, I would tell you that looking out the windscreen whilst the gauges slowly but steadily drift away is nothing like driving a car. But obviously that never happened The motor skills and co-ordination are the same though.
What I can tell you is riding the jump seat is a great experience as with the headset on and a forward view, the whole experience comes to life in a whole different way.

VTech

morstar wrote:

I share the control issues already mentioned and am not a big fan of flying in the same way I don't like crewing a sailing boat. Put me at the controls and it's very different.
I have had one flying lesson as a birthday present. Glad to have done it but not bitten by the bug. My brother flew a plane at the age of 14, set his heart on becoming a pilot and executed his wish. Only job he's ever done with one company too.
It's not the same as a car as it's not visual, it's vehicle management. Planning routes, programming systems and calculating fuel.
Were I to have taken the controls of a commercial airliner for a few minutes, I would tell you that looking out the windscreen whilst the gauges slowly but steadily drift away is nothing like driving a car. But obviously that never happened The motor skills and co-ordination are the same though.
What I can tell you is riding the jump seat is a great experience as with the headset on and a forward view, the whole experience comes to life in a whole different way.

Big difference from flying a plane to being instrument and night rated I guess.
I guess that's why you can fly a plane at 40 hours yet to fly at night or within cloud is a different matter.
Nice one on the jump though, best I've managed is a few seconds in the cockpit before Sept 11th.

RideOnTime

VTech wrote:

morstar wrote:

I share the control issues already mentioned and am not a big fan of flying in the same way I don't like crewing a sailing boat. Put me at the controls and it's very different.
I have had one flying lesson as a birthday present. Glad to have done it but not bitten by the bug. My brother flew a plane at the age of 14, set his heart on becoming a pilot and executed his wish. Only job he's ever done with one company too.
It's not the same as a car as it's not visual, it's vehicle management. Planning routes, programming systems and calculating fuel.
Were I to have taken the controls of a commercial airliner for a few minutes, I would tell you that looking out the windscreen whilst the gauges slowly but steadily drift away is nothing like driving a car. But obviously that never happened The motor skills and co-ordination are the same though.
What I can tell you is riding the jump seat is a great experience as with the headset on and a forward view, the whole experience comes to life in a whole different way.

Big difference from flying a plane to being instrument and night rated I guess.
I guess that's why you can fly a plane at 40 hours yet to fly at night or within cloud is a different matter.
Nice one on the jump though, best I've managed is a few seconds in the cockpit before Sept 11th.

Is it more akin to riding a scooter.

keef66

I'm in Milan at the moment (tedious meeting) but I flew in over the alps the evening before the German Wings crash. I wasn't paying attention, but it's likely I was on an Airbus 320. Sobering when I saw the news the following day.

Still quite enjoy flying though!

VTech

I have a friend who is in Geneva right now and according to him, the news on TV is that the windshield blew out and decompressed the cabin.

mamba80

VTech wrote:

I have a friend who is in Geneva right now and according to him, the news on TV is that the windshield blew out and decompressed the cabin.

You r not looking too good on the theories score?

there is apparently a way of getting back in if locked out of flight deck, so it would "appear" the other pilot made sure that couldnt happen, ruling out the pilot collapsing.

Absolutely terrifying.

morstar

VTech wrote:

Big difference from flying a plane to being instrument and night rated I guess.
I guess that's why you can fly a plane at 40 hours yet to fly at night or within cloud is a different matter.
Nice one on the jump though, best I've managed is a few seconds in the cockpit before Sept 11th.

My experience was pre Sept 11th too. It was also in the same week that a Russian airliner crashed after the pilots son had been allowed to take the controls. There was actually a technical error in how the computer responded to the childs playing with the column rather than the kid just crashing the plane but that event pretty much stopped civilians taking the controls I believe and then 9/11 stopped access to the cockpits full stop.

Shame because it's a great experience but totally understandable.

VTech

News globally saying co-pilot crashed on purpose after locking out captain

ugo.santalucia

VTech wrote:

News globally saying co-pilot crashed on purpose after locking out captain

Makes sense... it was either that or an act of terrorism... and I fear the Malaysian plane must have been a very similar scenario. Scary to think the pilot could be a psychopath... Imagine how the family feels... the burden of 149 victims must be unbearable... :?

VTech

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

News globally saying co-pilot crashed on purpose after locking out captain

Makes sense... it was either that or an act of terrorism... and I fear the Malaysian plane must have been a very similar scenario. Scary to think the pilot could be a psychopath... Imagine how the family feels... the burden of 149 victims must be unbearable... :?

What I can't fathom is the news trying to ease pain (I understand why, just not that anyone would believe it) that the passengers didn't know.
I sadly feel that they all knew for 8 long minutes what was happening, with the plane speeding as it flew towards the ground and the pilot trying to smash the cockpit door in.
Such a sad sad thing to happen, at least for the families it would have been better for it to have been an accident but knowing it was intentional is horrific.

ugo.santalucia

... and the locked door was supposed to make flying safer... :roll:
Not sure why the pilot doesn't have a code or special key to open the door... it could well happen that whilst he is in the loo the co-pilot feels ill or something... it seems a gross oversight

mamba80

VTech wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VTech wrote:

News globally saying co-pilot crashed on purpose after locking out captain

Makes sense... it was either that or an act of terrorism... and I fear the Malaysian plane must have been a very similar scenario. Scary to think the pilot could be a psychopath... Imagine how the family feels... the burden of 149 victims must be unbearable... :?

What I can't fathom is the news trying to ease pain (I understand why, just not that anyone would believe it) that the passengers didn't know.
I sadly feel that they all knew for 8 long minutes what was happening, with the plane speeding as it flew towards the ground and the pilot trying to smash the cockpit door in.
Such a sad sad thing to happen, at least for the families it would have been better for it to have been an accident but knowing it was intentional is horrific.

there is an over ride code but the person inside can still bar access, i guess it is to stop terrorists gaining the code and then getting in?
the reports from the voice recorder say the passengers did not know until the final moments, when they can be heard screaming, though they must have seen the pilot trying to get back in, probably reassured that all was in hand.....

as the (reports say...) co pilot cannot be heard speaking at all, is it not possible that he collapsed and the crew did not know or remember the over ride access code? like when would have been the last time they had to use it?

ugo.santalucia

mamba80 wrote:

as the (reports say...) co pilot cannot be heard speaking at all, is it not possible that he collapsed and the crew did not know or remember the over ride access code? like when would have been the last time they had to use it?

Nope, apparently he had deliberately decided to descend, which was not meant to happen at that point in the flight

nicklouse

Exact details of what happened in the cockpit during the 11 minute descent remain unknown, but it is understood that Lubitz's breathing could be heard while the captain was desperately trying to break through the cockpit door.

http://www.thelocal.de/20150326/profile ... s-co-pilot

veronese68

I can't even begin to understand what possessed him.
I was just discussing this with a customer. He was saying that it appears the co-pilot's parents are with other families en-route to the crash site. I really hope they manage to get them away from other relatives as quickly as possible.

slowmart

You can't rationalise an act of such wanton destruction of innocent life.

Unstable, evil or deranged are the usual labels attributed to individuals who commit these type of acts but it doesn't explain the trigger points it took to get the individual to this point.

ben@31

pliptrot wrote:

I It's been a bad year for flying - 8 crashes and more than 1,000 dead. But out of how many flights?

^ THIS.

Compared to how many car, motorbike and cycling accidents they've been, aviation is statistically really safe. Considering the volume of aircraft traffic flying 24/7 all around the world.

Engineering wise. Aircraft have built in redundancy. Multiple systems in case one fails, such as multiple hydraulic systems, duplex flying control wiring and electrical generators instead of just one.

The standard of maintenance and servicing is considerably higher in aviation than other forms of transport. The aircraft are routinely rebuilt every few thousand flying hours and critical parts replaced regardless of condition. If there is a problem with the engine, the entire engine gets replaced rather than fix the same one in situ. It's common for aircraft to have had multiple engine changes throughout its lifetime.

After every maintenance activity, there's in-depth function testing and checks to ensure everything is working as it should and no error has been made. It is like changing the batteries in your tv remote and then testing every single button and menu combination afterwards, then getting your next door neighbour to independently check.

As far as I am aware, it is not permitted for the pilot or first officer to be left unattended, on their own. I'm surprised if this happened. Every day there is different speculation on what happened.

Frank the tank

It is terrible for all concerned and condolence to the relatives.

The ironic thing is, if it was an act of suicide/murder by the co-pilot this is the best result. It means all other A320s should be safe (no manufacturing/maintenance issue) The airline can breathe a sigh of relief with regard their maintenance processes.

I was on a "human factors" course and it impresses upon each individual employee what their responsibilities are with regard working to due process and the consequences for all concerned if they don't. At the end of the course just to make the point stick there is a ten minute video of crash scenes, statistics and the most harrowing thing I've heard in my life..........................the audio recording from the "black box" of the cockpit, truly awful.

RDW

ben@31 wrote:

As far as I am aware, it is not permitted for the pilot or first officer to be left unattended, on their own. I'm surprised if this happened. Every day there is different speculation on what happened.

Apparently this rule is followed in the US, but not necessarily elsewhere. Various airlines are now rushing to change their procedures:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... ule-of-two
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... agedy.html

Lookyhere

odd that we all go on about EU rules and regulations but its the EU that have lengthened pilots working hours and reduced the number of pilots on long haul flights but the USA with its reputation for less regulation, is the country that has a 2 air crew rule in the cockpit.
Given that the extra security since 9/11, has turned a flight deck into a fortress, it seems with hindsight (remember this is something the authorities are paid to foresee) a gross error, something airlines are now hurriedly trying to rectify.

Wunnunda

Lookyhere wrote:

odd that we all go on about EU rules and regulations but its the EU that have lengthened pilots working hours and reduced the number of pilots on long haul flights but the USA with its reputation for less regulation, is the country that has a 2 air crew rule in the cockpit.
Given that the extra security since 9/11, has turned a flight deck into a fortress, it seems with hindsight (remember this is something the authorities are paid to foresee) a gross error, something airlines are now hurriedly trying to rectify.

Not true. EASA is nothing to do with the EU. And two man crews were driven, initially, by US airlines wanting to operate at lower cost on 5 hour domestic flight. FWIW BA have a 2 person in the cockpit rule and have had for a while, but I suspect that in the dya to day it's not observed 100% of the time.

mamba80

So somebody with a history of mental illness is allowed to be an airline pilot????? and can hide his mental illness from his employers by no more than simply not telling them? he is mentally ill, therefore incapable of making rational decisions.
should nt it be mandatory for the medical profession to inform employers of their employees medical history where it effects their job?

To me the regulatory authorities/Governments and the airlines have failed in their jobs.

Lookyhere

Wunnunda wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

odd that we all go on about EU rules and regulations but its the EU that have lengthened pilots working hours and reduced the number of pilots on long haul flights but the USA with its reputation for less regulation, is the country that has a 2 air crew rule in the cockpit.
Given that the extra security since 9/11, has turned a flight deck into a fortress, it seems with hindsight (remember this is something the authorities are paid to foresee) a gross error, something airlines are now hurriedly trying to rectify.

Not true. EASA is nothing to do with the EU. And two man crews were driven, initially, by US airlines wanting to operate at lower cost on 5 hour domestic flight. FWIW BA have a 2 person in the cockpit rule and have had for a while, but I suspect that in the dya to day it's not observed 100% of the time.

From their own website........ https://www.easa.europa.eu/the-agency
"EASA is the European Union Authority in aviation safety. The main activities of the organisation include the strategy and safety management, the certification of aviation products and the oversight of approved organisations and EU Member States"

nothing to do with the EU? well they seem to thing they are - the americans still operate a 2 man cockpit rule, what ever they may have wanted to do.

Wunnunda

Blame EASA by all means, but this is not the EU making bad law, it's the industry's regulators.

Anonymous

How can Lufthansa say that their security/saftey procedures do not need reviewing? Defies belief :shock:
Are they just scared to be seeming to admit liability if they now change procedures?

Anonymous

mamba80 wrote:

So somebody with a history of mental illness is allowed to be an airline pilot????? and can hide his mental illness from his employers by no more than simply not telling them? he is mentally ill, therefore incapable of making rational decisions.
should nt it be mandatory for the medical profession to inform employers of their employees medical history where it effects their job?

To me the regulatory authorities/Governments and the airlines have failed in their jobs.

What a total load of utter bollox.

Something like 1/4 people suffer depression at one point in their life. Think about the kind of person who has other lives in their hands:
Bus drivers
Lorry drivers (easily crush oncoming traffic)
Pilots
Doctors
Air traffic control
Train operators (guys who control intersections etc)

Just because you're depressed doesn't make you suicidal nor does it make you a murderer and vice versa. I'm not sorry for calling you an ignorant pig for such a thoughtless comment.

pblakeney

mamba80 wrote:

So somebody with a history of mental illness is allowed to be an airline pilot????? and can hide his mental illness from his employers by no more than simply not telling them?

Pretty much.
If he doesn't tell them, how would they know?
I suppose medical records being made open is the solution.

Anonymous

coriordan wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

So somebody with a history of mental illness is allowed to be an airline pilot????? and can hide his mental illness from his employers by no more than simply not telling them? he is mentally ill, therefore incapable of making rational decisions.
should nt it be mandatory for the medical profession to inform employers of their employees medical history where it effects their job?

To me the regulatory authorities/Governments and the airlines have failed in their jobs.

What a total load of utter bollox.

Something like 1/4 people suffer depression at one point in their life. Think about the kind of person who has other lives in their hands:
Bus drivers
Lorry drivers (easily crush oncoming traffic)
Pilots
Doctors
Air traffic control
Train operators (guys who control intersections etc)

Just because you're depressed doesn't make you suicidal nor does it make you a murderer and vice versa. I'm not sorry for calling you an ignorant pig for such a thoughtless comment.

Sounds more like common sense than ignorance to me :roll:

I think most people would avoid an airline supporting and flown solely by clinically depressed pilots, even those who chose to publicly speak out for the mentally ill.

It's ok being PC to a point, but you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

The BBC are overly PC. I dought they would be talking about the 'revaluations' of pilots life if they did not equate to him being unfit to fly a plane.
Most sain people would say he should not have had his job.

What's your answer to avoiding what has happened? It does not seem that you have one and value the rights of the mentally ill over everyone else in society.