Carbon disc brake wheels? (paging Ugo et al.)

dhope

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You are speculating about 10-20 grams at the hub that are completely irrelevant. If Centrelock was more available, it would be a more convenient solution... it's just quicker to replace the rotor and it looks a more robust system. But it's not, so 6 bolts is preferable

If I were to go for the 'cheap' build of
Light Bicycle 35mm carbon rims - tubeless, no brake track
Shimano CX75
Sapim Race spokes

I think the rims, hubs delivered plus import duty and (finger in the air guesstimate based on last wheel build) spokes/tape/Ugo's time to build would come to around £500 all in.

It'll not be the lightest build in the work - probably about 1750g in the end.
Swapping out for more expensive parts (DT Swiss 240s, CX-Ray spokes) might drop weight to around 1500g but price up to £850. Probably not worth the extra as the carbon/disc options are still pretty restricted by the look of it.

So, if I end up with the cheap set then I'll have two wheelsets.
Wheelset 1 - commute/training: DT Swiss R23 with Vittoria Randoneeur Pro 32c
Wheelset 2 - more fun: LB 35mm U Shaped Carbon on Shimano CX75 with (probably) Schwalbe One 25c or 28c


Worth the bother?

tgotb

dhope wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You are speculating about 10-20 grams at the hub that are completely irrelevant. If Centrelock was more available, it would be a more convenient solution... it's just quicker to replace the rotor and it looks a more robust system. But it's not, so 6 bolts is preferable

If I were to go for the 'cheap' build of
Light Bicycle 35mm carbon rims - tubeless, no brake track
Shimano CX75
Sapim Race spokes

I think the rims, hubs delivered plus import duty and (finger in the air guesstimate based on last wheel build) spokes/tape/Ugo's time to build would come to around £500 all in.

It'll not be the lightest build in the work - probably about 1750g in the end.
Swapping out for more expensive parts (DT Swiss 240s, CX-Ray spokes) might drop weight to around 1500g but price up to £850. Probably not worth the extra as the carbon/disc options are still pretty restricted by the look of it.

So, if I end up with the cheap set then I'll have two wheelsets.
Wheelset 1 - commute/training: DT Swiss R23 with Vittoria Randoneeur Pro 32c
Wheelset 2 - more fun: LB 35mm U Shaped Carbon on Shimano CX75 with (probably) Schwalbe One 25c or 28c


Worth the bother?

I'm surprised you can't do better than that; I built up a couple of pairs of clincher wheelsets using Novatec hubs and (aluminium) Iron cross rims for about £250 a pair, and they came in a shade under 1400g (28/32 spokes). I built up another couple of pairs with 50mm carbon tub rims, at about the same weight, for a shade under £400.

veronese68

dhope wrote:

Worth the bother?

Sensibly, of course not. But since when did being sensible count for anything?

dhope

TGOTB wrote:

I'm surprised you can't do better than that; I built up a couple of pairs of clincher wheelsets using Novatec hubs and (aluminium) Iron cross rims for about £250 a pair, and they came in a shade under 1400g (28/32 spokes). I built up another couple of pairs with 50mm carbon tub rims, at about the same weight, for a shade under £400.

Guessing the 50mm tubs were PX? I looked there but you can only get tubular rims from them - if you want clincher then you need to buy the wheelset, and then there's no disc option. Emailed PX to ask about buying the clincher rims separately and the response was useless, they just pointed me to the webpage.

The rims are definitely where most of the cost comes. $163 (£110) each, but then by the time they've shipped two and you've paid duty and VAT then it could be £316.30
Hubs were cheap at £100 for the pair


But if you've any ideas certainly interested to hear

Veronese68 wrote:

dhope wrote:

Worth the bother?

Sensibly, of course not. But since when did being sensible count for anything?

I meant will I notice a difference, or am I just buying an aero-ish wheelset that would end up being heavy enough that I would struggle to tell the difference between the R23's that came with the bike (around £225-£300 RRP I think).
They will be used for the bike section on triathlons amongst other things so there's certainly a case where having something that holds its speed well is useful.

tgotb

dhope wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

I'm surprised you can't do better than that; I built up a couple of pairs of clincher wheelsets using Novatec hubs and (aluminium) Iron cross rims for about £250 a pair, and they came in a shade under 1400g (28/32 spokes). I built up another couple of pairs with 50mm carbon tub rims, at about the same weight, for a shade under £400.

Guessing the 50mm tubs were PX? I looked there but you can only get tubular rims from them - if you want clincher then you need to buy the wheelset, and then there's no disc option. Emailed PX to ask about buying the clincher rims separately and the response was useless, they just pointed me to the webpage.

The rims are definitely where most of the cost comes. $163 (£110) each, but then by the time they've shipped two and you've paid duty and VAT then it could be £316.30
Hubs were cheap at £100 for the pair


But if you've any ideas certainly interested to hear

No, my 50mm rims were Farsports, I'm planning on building up at least one more set this Summer. I'm very happy with the quality, but have no experience of their clincher rims, so can't comment on those.

Couple of tricks to help keep the weight down at negligible cost:
Switch from brass to aluminium nipples. Ugo will tell you all sorts of bad things could happen, but mine have been totally trouble-free, and still rotate quite freely after 3 years; I use copper grease when building, just to be sure.
Switch to a lighter gauge of spoke on the lower-tension side of the wheel. I used DT Revolution on one side and DT Competition on the other. The wheel ends up just as strong/stiff, and the stresses are actually closer matched between the two sides.

If you're serious about triathlon performance, you should do a bit more research on the specific rim profiles; for a given rim depth, some carbon rims are very much more aero than others (and for time trialling, aerodynamics trumps pretty much every other design consideration). Quite a lot of useful information on the time trialling forum if you search around a bit.

ugo.santalucia

There is a whole new crop of spokes out there... among the most interesting Sapim D-Light are only half a gram more than a Sapim Laser and build stiffer... cost about the same. I used them more and more in disc wheels. 1600 grams is easier to achieve with any rim, or lighter. I don't normally use alloy nipples as nobody asks for them... if they want them, as long as they know the potential drawbacks, then so be it. Copper slip is good to prevent seizing, at least for a while.
For really under engineered drive sides (low count, shallow rims etc.) DT Swiss Alpine 3 sorts out most troubles with a very minor weight penalty

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

There is a whole new crop of spokes out there... among the most interesting Sapim D-Light are only half a gram more than a Sapim Laser and build stiffer... cost about the same. I used them more and more in disc wheels. 1600 grams is easier to achieve with any rim, or lighter. I don't normally use alloy nipples as nobody asks for them... if they want them, as long as they know the potential drawbacks, then so be it. Copper slip is good to prevent seizing, at least for a while.
For really under engineered drive sides (low count, shallow rims etc.) DT Swiss Alpine 3 sorts out most troubles with a very minor weight penalty

Hmmm, thanks, that's very interesting...

<runs off to research new spokes>

dhope

Ordered...

Not the lightest certainly, hubs and rims already ~1450g
The rest I'll leave to Ugo's judgement

dhope

Carbon rims have landed at last and are in the hands of Her Majesty's finest customs...

Took 3 days to get from China -> UK
Reckon it'll take longer to do Customs -> Greenwich?

drlodge

Those hubs look like the same ones I have on my Boardman CX Pro...with Archetype rims. That's gonna be an interesting combination!

rubertoe

What hubs are they?

imatfaal

rubertoe wrote:

What hubs are they?

They look like Shimano CX75s ie Ultegra Cross

drlodge

Mine are Shimano XT M785

rubertoe

drlodge wrote:

Mine are Shimano XT M785

That is what I think they are. It is what i have on my K2 (open pro CD build).

Solid hubs IMO

dhope

They're CX-75's

11 speed/Ultegra/Cross

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/shi ... b-ec057623
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/shi ... b-ec057624

ugo.santalucia

dhope wrote:

Carbon rims have landed at last and are in the hands of Her Majesty's finest customs...

Took 3 days to get from China -> UK
Reckon it'll take longer to do Customs -> Greenwich?

Depends how quickly you pay your taxes...

dhope

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dhope wrote:

Carbon rims have landed at last and are in the hands of Her Majesty's finest customs...

Took 3 days to get from China -> UK
Reckon it'll take longer to do Customs -> Greenwich?

Depends how quickly you pay your taxes...

Eager to do so. Been with customs for 9 days and no letter advising me that I have to pay them monies.

Parcelfarce, rant rant, yawn etc.

ugo.santalucia

dhope wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dhope wrote:

Carbon rims have landed at last and are in the hands of Her Majesty's finest customs...

Took 3 days to get from China -> UK
Reckon it'll take longer to do Customs -> Greenwich?

Depends how quickly you pay your taxes...

Eager to do so. Been with customs for 9 days and no letter advising me that I have to pay them monies.

Parcelfarce, rant rant, yawn etc.

Dealings with the far east can be frustrating... that is why I tend to deal only with BDOP, as they seem to fast track everything to a very reasonable timescale.

dhope

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dhope wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dhope wrote:

Carbon rims have landed at last and are in the hands of Her Majesty's finest customs...

Took 3 days to get from China -> UK
Reckon it'll take longer to do Customs -> Greenwich?

Depends how quickly you pay your taxes...

Eager to do so. Been with customs for 9 days and no letter advising me that I have to pay them monies.

Parcelfarce, rant rant, yawn etc.

Dealings with the far east can be frustrating... that is why I tend to deal only with BDOP, as they seem to fast track everything to a very reasonable timescale.

Noooo. Parcelforce misread (or China miswrote) the address as No. 10 rather than No. 16

Hence why I have no notification
And no parcel

Time to trek to the depot

dhope

Parcelforce misread. Rims now collected

For anyone interested in the weight - 986g for the pair
Quoted weight was 480g +/- 15g each.
Actual was 486g and 500g, so not far off

dhope

Built and fitted.

Will be 'that guy' tomorrow, commuting on 55mm carbon rims tomorrow in order to give them a run out in Richmond Park.

Anonymous

Pre or post work? What time?

dhope

coriordan wrote:

Pre or post work? What time?

Post work. Heading to Brentford first for weights then RP after so probably 7.15