Carbon disc brake wheels? (paging Ugo et al.)

dhope

Pondering a second set of wheels for the Inflite...
Currently have 32c Randonneur Pro's on DT Swiss R23 Spline but will end up using the same bike on days where I don't need a tractor with big ol' tyres and full mudguards

So...

Bike is disc brake so don't need a brake track
Centerlock hubs - scratch that, can be 6 bolt too...
Reasonably aero
Reasonable light
Not massively expensive

Rims: Am pondering chinese carbon (light bicycle seem to get a very good writeup)
http://www.light-bicycle.com/wider-700c ... -bike.html

Hubs: DT Swiss 350 centerlock/disc/straightpull?
Could go for 240's but they seem to be only slightly lighter for lots more money and the same internals

Spokes: Whatever the wheelbuilder (Ugo?) would recommend

Anything glaringly stupid so far?

veronese68

When I was building my MTB wheels Malcolm at the Cycle Clinic recommended one of the Chinese carbon suppliers for rims. Unfortunately I can't remember which one but will try to find the email. Shimano XT hubs? Presumably you will be buying new discs so why limit yourself to centrelock? Far more choice in 6 bolt. Very happy with the Novatec hubs on my Kinesis, and now also on the MTB.

tgotb

I have at least 6 sets of wheels built on Novatec D711/D712 hubs, and rate them very highly. The only real maintenance I have had to do is replacing bearings on wheels that are regularly ridden off road and then pressure-washed, and even then the cartridge bearings are cheap and easily obtainable.

I've been very happy with Farsports rims, *but* I only have their tubular rims, can't comment on their clinchers. Good customer service too...

ugo.santalucia

I would be very temped by these rims

http://www.bdopcycling.com/DTO-40%20DIS ... 20RIMS.asp

carbon and tubeless ready sounds interesting... 28 holes means you can use CX 75 hubs, which are centrelock

Wheelworks in NZ have tested the rims

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/11/what- ... el-design/

You can drop them a line asking their thoughts... or maybe I should do it... :roll:

dhope

The Light-bicycle rims are also full carbon and tubeless without brake tracks. Look similar weight and profile, but around $380 delivered instead of $600. Do bdop have a significantly better reputation?

Can't seem to find much in the way of comparisons on the hubs - any benefit with DT Swiss 350's over CX75? The 350's are slightly lighter but pricier, and both centrelock.

tgotb

Out of interest, why Centrelock? Maybe I'm missing something, but that restricts you to a far more limited selection of hubs and rotors, and in my experience they've been nothing but trouble (in particularly, difficulty tightening the rotor locknut).

dhope

TGOTB wrote:

Out of interest, why Centrelock? Maybe I'm missing something, but that restricts you to a far more limited selection of hubs and rotors, and in my experience they've been nothing but trouble (in particularly, difficulty tightening the rotor locknut).

Thought there was some issue with the rotors available for 6 bolt discs and R785 calipers...
http://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Comp ... _4021.html

-Rotors are only offered in Centerlock design at this time. Shimano makes a 6-bolt XTR 160mm rotor, but it does not have the cooling fins.

Edit: Looks like that might only be an issue with 140mm rotors, and that 160mm rotors are fine for 6 bolt...
Another edit: Inflite comes with SM-RT99 Ice-Tech 160mm rotors so maybe the 6 bolt will be absolutely fine. Shows my complete lack of knowledge about this disc malarkey :roll:

veronese68

Lots of 6 bolt discs, probably more than centre lock, certainly in 160mm or over. Light-bicycle rims seem well thought of in the MTB section.
Also, what are you running on the disc fixie? Good to be able to swap bits between bikes in an emergency.

ugo.santalucia

dhope wrote:

the Light-bicycle rims are also full carbon and tubeless without brake tracks. Look similar weight and profile, but around $380 delivered instead of $600. Do bdop have a significantly better reputation?

Can't seem to find much in the way of comparisons on the hubs - any benefit with DT Swiss 350's over CX75? The 350's are slightly lighter but pricier, and both centrelock.

CX 75 are cup and cone and come with the best QR skewers money can buy... DT have an easier to service freehub, but a hassle to replace the bearings (basically you need a special tool).

Don't know abotu the rims you mention, significantly cheaper, so you have a point

dhope

Veronese68 wrote:

Also, what are you running on the disc fixie? Good to be able to swap bits between bikes in an emergency.

Dixie has an Open Pro/Hope Evo2 6 bolt disc on the front, rear is rim brake (but no brake on it). So front could be swapped fairly easily already. Though this would be a 2nd wheelset so I'd hopefully not get to the point where I needed to borrow from the fixed.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

CX 75 are cup and cone and come with the best QR skewers money can buy... DT have an easier to service freehub, but a hassle to replace the bearings (basically you need a special tool).

Guessing in day to day use that there's not much between them - i.e. they're both smooth and hassle free and reliable, and it's only at the (hopefully rare) time of servicing that you notice the differences?

ugo.santalucia

I had a look at these Light Bicycle rims... they say they are tubeless, but they are not really... see the profile, is that of a normal rim



While this is the scheme of the BDOP ones, which are tubeless



I spoke to Tristan at Wheelworks in NZ, who said they are good quality to build, although he didn't get the chance to ride them much, so he can't comment on that

The Rookie

LB rims are very well thought after in MTB world, lots of happy users, njee20 has been running his for a while now (memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=445216)

Don't go centrelock discs, very limited choice and no easily available lightweight choice, why spend money on light rims to throw away 50+g on the discs? (R785 are 116g each, XTR 124g each for 160mm)
On my Commuter I use Alligator discs at both ends at circa 72g each, on my MTB I have a 'normal' disc area A2Z disc on the front (alligator is fine on the rear) which with it's alloy spider adds just 17g (its 89g), that was still only £25, even the cheapo Hayes on my daughters bike with full disc area is 124g (add 10-12g for bolts unless you go Ti or Al - the centrelock adds about 5g from memory).

Novatech hubs are good, I'm running 3 across my two main bikes, for a bit more money though have a look at the A2Z hubs as they are circa 160g lighter for a pair than the lightest Novatech, for the rear the d772 is a good option as it has a steel insert to reduce the sprocket digging in effect.

Personally I steer clear of straight pull spokes as availability can be an issue and they cost more, J-bend are easier to get in an emergency and in the real world just as strong - many more spokes fail by the nipple than at the 'weak' bend.

veronese68

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I had a look at these Light Bicycle rims... they say they are tubeless, but they are not really... see the profile, is that of a normal rim



While this is the scheme of the BDOP ones, which are tubeless

I was wondering about that as I was looking at the Farsports page yesterday. For the MTB rims they list a hookless variant on their rims. But comparing the standard and hookless specs they quote the same maximum pressure. So what is the advantage of one type over the other? Although I notice the road rims all have the hooked rims.

The Rookie

Many people are using the LB rims tubeless.....

dhope

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I had a look at these Light Bicycle rims... they say they are tubeless, but they are not really... see the profile, is that of a normal rim



While this is the scheme of the BDOP ones, which are tubeless



I spoke to Tristan at Wheelworks in NZ, who said they are good quality to build, although he didn't get the chance to ride them much, so he can't comment on that

Asked Light Bicycle this morning for the profile - below.

Does look like it's missing the channel you'd normally see on a tubeless. When I asked if it was tubeless compatible they said

For tubeless, you could use a kind of yellow tape, sealant and tubeless tire. Then it works perfectly.

Is the deeper channel essential or is it the bead hook that makes the difference...

The Rookie

Neither, it's the bead being a firm seal on the outer (radial) face of the rim, 'lips' (edges to your preference) play no part, on Stans rims for example it can often take quite high pressure to get the bead up from the middle trough onto the sealing face, one of my Schwalbe's took 90psi the first time (didn't half go with a pop when it did!)

tgotb

dhope wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I had a look at these Light Bicycle rims... they say they are tubeless, but they are not really... see the profile, is that of a normal rim



While this is the scheme of the BDOP ones, which are tubeless



I spoke to Tristan at Wheelworks in NZ, who said they are good quality to build, although he didn't get the chance to ride them much, so he can't comment on that

Asked Light Bicycle this morning for the profile - below.

Does look like it's missing the channel you'd normally see on a tubeless. When I asked if it was tubeless compatible they said

For tubeless, you could use a kind of yellow tape, sealant and tubeless tire. Then it works perfectly.

Is the deeper channel essential or is it the bead hook that makes the difference...

It may depend what you're using them for:
- Tubeless off-road (my experience is with CX, presumably MTB is similar) you're riding at pressures between 18-30psi, so there's pretty much zero chance of blowing the tyres off the rims with the air pressure, but "burping" is an issue when cornering hard. Having a tyre with a very *shallow* channel seems to make a positive difference here; the light bicycles rim *appears" to have this, though I'm only judging from the picture. Bead hook profile is presumably also important, but the shallow channel is absolutely key (the key to adapting rims for CX tubeless is using the right amount of Velox tape to build up the rim bed).
- Tubeless on-road. Completely different set of problems; you need to stop they tyre "blowing off" the rim at high pressure. I'm guessing part of the equation is a very tight bead which will need a deep channel in the rim to be able to mount it. Once it's inflated the deep channel is irrelevant, and side loads are presumably a non-issue because the higher pressure and bead design holds the tyre onto the rim.

veronese68

TGOTB wrote:

- Tubeless on-road. Completely different set of problems; you need to stop they tyre "blowing off" the rim at high pressure. I'm guessing part of the equation is a very tight bead which will need a deep channel in the rim to be able to mount it. Once it's inflated the deep channel is irrelevant, and side loads are presumably a non-issue because the higher pressure and bead design holds the tyre onto the rim.

This is where I'd have thought the hooked shape to the rim would help hold the bead on at higher pressures. I'm confused as to what possible advantage the 'hookless' design Farsports sell has.

ugo.santalucia

The thing is tubeless works well when you use dedicated rim + tape + tyre... if one of the three elements is unsuitable, then it all becomes more problematic... you might struggle to build pressure, you might struggle to hold pressure or you might struggle with a tyre blowing off... predicting which problems you are going to encounter is not straightforward

tgotb

Veronese68 wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

- Tubeless on-road. Completely different set of problems; you need to stop they tyre "blowing off" the rim at high pressure. I'm guessing part of the equation is a very tight bead which will need a deep channel in the rim to be able to mount it. Once it's inflated the deep channel is irrelevant, and side loads are presumably a non-issue because the higher pressure and bead design holds the tyre onto the rim.

This is where I'd have thought the hooked shape to the rim would help hold the bead on at higher pressures. I'm confused as to what possible advantage the 'hookless' design Farsports sell has.

You've said the Farsports one is for MTB though, which means low pressure.

I'm speculating here, but maybe the mechanism holding a 20psi tyre onto a rim doesn't rely on the hook at all, just a combination of tension in the bead and pressure in the tyre. That would certainly tally with the way tyres seem to mount up and behave on my tubeless wheels. As to the possible advantage of a beadless design, I have no idea; maybe it makes them less prone to burping, but that's just a guess...

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The thing is tubeless works well when you use dedicated rim + tape + tyre... if one of the three elements is unsuitable, then it all becomes more problematic... you might struggle to build pressure, you might struggle to hold pressure or you might struggle with a tyre blowing off... predicting which problems you are going to encounter is not straightforward

Are you talking Road tubeless here, or CX/MTB?

timothyw

The Rookie wrote:

Don't go centrelock discs, very limited choice and no easily available lightweight choice, why spend money on light rims to throw away 50+g on the discs? (R785 are 116g each, XTR 124g each for 160mm)

I'm pretty sure weight is a silly argument to make for 6 bolt vs centrelock, sure, the rotors might be lighter but the hubs are bound to be heavier eg Rose quote the XT 6bolt hub as being 426g vs the XT centrelock being 330 g - that's more than your 50g saving right there.

I'm also pretty certain that you'll find the weight of the 6 screws is greater than the weight of the lockring on a centrelock system, and that's the sort of thing that isn't quoted in these weight listings.

Heck, the cheap shimano centrelock to 6 bolt converter apparently only weighs 55g anyway:
http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;n ... duct=80551

All this is stupid anyway, because wheel weight at the hub makes very little difference versus weight at the rim - to get all technical on you, rotational inertia increases with the square of the radius - big effect at the rim, hardly any at the hub.

The argument that I'd make is that changing rotors on a six bolt system is a massive faff, and although I have a six bolt setup on my current wheelsets if I were buying them again I'd get centre lock - there's a big convenience advantage and an arguable weight advantage, full backwards compatibility and no particular disadvantage to be seen - if you have a cassette tool you already have the tool needed to change them.

tgotb

TimothyW wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

Don't go centrelock discs, very limited choice and no easily available lightweight choice, why spend money on light rims to throw away 50+g on the discs? (R785 are 116g each, XTR 124g each for 160mm)

I'm pretty sure weight is a silly argument to make for 6 bolt vs centrelock, sure, the rotors might be lighter but the hubs are bound to be heavier eg Rose quote the XT 6bolt hub as being 426g vs the XT centrelock being 330 g - that's more than your 50g saving right there.

I'm also pretty certain that you'll find the weight of the 6 screws is greater than the weight of the lockring on a centrelock system, and that's the sort of thing that isn't quoted in these weight listings.

Heck, the cheap shimano centrelock to 6 bolt converter apparently only weighs 55g anyway:
http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;n ... duct=80551

All this is stupid anyway, because wheel weight at the hub makes very little difference versus weight at the rim - to get all technical on you, rotational inertia increases with the square of the radius - big effect at the rim, hardly any at the hub.

The argument that I'd make is that changing rotors on a six bolt system is a massive faff, and although I have a six bolt setup on my current wheelsets if I were buying them again I'd get centre lock - there's a big convenience advantage and an arguable weight advantage, full backwards compatibility and no particular disadvantage to be seen - if you have a cassette tool you already have the tool needed to change them.

Except that:
1. Some cassette tools don't work with some centrelock hubs, so you may well have to get a new cassette tool.
2. How often do you change rotors anyway? In my experience, less often than you change rims on a rim-braked wheel. So what if it takes a minute or so longer...

timothyw

TGOTB wrote:

Except that:
1. Some cassette tools don't work with some centrelock hubs, so you may well have to get a new cassette tool.
2. How often do you change rotors anyway? In my experience, less often than you change rims on a rim-braked wheel. So what if it takes a minute or so longer...

Well, suppose you get one of the new hotness Road bikes with disks that have started appearing - most of those are specced for 140mm brake rotors, whereas most CX bikes etc around at the moment take 160mm rotors.

Suppose you want to share your nice carbon rimmed wheelset between the CX bike and your new hotness....

You either space out the new hotness for 160mm rotors (which'd be ugly, lets face it) or you spend ages swapping rotor. Or you swap centrelock rotors in under a minute.

The thing is, better is still better, even if it isn't currently required.....

tgotb

TimothyW wrote:

Well, suppose you get one of the new hotness Road bikes with disks that have started appearing - most of those are specced for 140mm brake rotors, whereas most CX bikes etc around at the moment take 160mm rotors.

Suppose you want to share your nice carbon rimmed wheelset between the CX bike and your new hotness....

You either space out the new hotness for 160mm rotors (which'd be ugly, lets face it) or you spend ages swapping rotor. Or you swap centrelock rotors in under a minute.

OK, that's a fair point. The other alternative is to run 140mm rotors in a 160mm setup, which I discovered I'd been doing on the back of my commuter bike :oops:

Of course, if you're keen enough to be using carbon wheels on your CX bike, you really want tubulars, preferably several sets :-)

I'm sure I was reading an article by a brake manufacturer the other day which was recommending 140mm rotors for CX and 160mm for road (which makes sense to me). Every CX disc frame I've seen is built for 160mm though, and the point about swapping still applies...

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The thing is tubeless works well when you use dedicated rim + tape + tyre... if one of the three elements is unsuitable, then it all becomes more problematic... you might struggle to build pressure, you might struggle to hold pressure or you might struggle with a tyre blowing off... predicting which problems you are going to encounter is not straightforward

Are you talking Road tubeless here, or CX/MTB?

Road, it's a road bike the OP has

dhope

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The thing is tubeless works well when you use dedicated rim + tape + tyre... if one of the three elements is unsuitable, then it all becomes more problematic... you might struggle to build pressure, you might struggle to hold pressure or you might struggle with a tyre blowing off... predicting which problems you are going to encounter is not straightforward

Are you talking Road tubeless here, or CX/MTB?

Road, it's a road bike the OP has

Well, it's a CX bike in road dress (Canyon Inflite 9.0). 160mm rotors on both the Inflite and Condor currently. Centrelock on Inflite, 6 bolt on Condor. Not expecting to start using it for CX though, it's the road bike currently (may be relegated to winter bike if I get something fancier)

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The thing is tubeless works well when you use dedicated rim + tape + tyre... if one of the three elements is unsuitable, then it all becomes more problematic... you might struggle to build pressure, you might struggle to hold pressure or you might struggle with a tyre blowing off... predicting which problems you are going to encounter is not straightforward

Are you talking Road tubeless here, or CX/MTB?

Road, it's a road bike the OP has

Whereas the issues you're highlighting sound very characteristic of your experience with CX tubeless, which is a totally different beast...

ugo.santalucia

dhope wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The thing is tubeless works well when you use dedicated rim + tape + tyre... if one of the three elements is unsuitable, then it all becomes more problematic... you might struggle to build pressure, you might struggle to hold pressure or you might struggle with a tyre blowing off... predicting which problems you are going to encounter is not straightforward

Are you talking Road tubeless here, or CX/MTB?

Road, it's a road bike the OP has

Well, it's a CX bike in road dress (Canyon Inflite 9.0). 160mm rotors on both the Inflite and Condor currently. Centrelock on Inflite, 6 bolt on Condor. Not expecting to start using it for CX though, it's the road bike currently (may be relegated to winter bike if I get something fancier)

The 11 speed Malarkey prevents you from using MTBike hubs, which in my opinion are just miles better and there is a lot of choice. I use Novatec 541/542 on my wheels, which are the dogs... you can use the free hub bearing as a hula hoop and engagement is instantaneous...

http://whosatthewheel.com/2014/12/27/no ... disc-hubs/

Hope PRO 2 are very good too and so are others. Not many are 11 speed though, only those marketed for cyclocross, which is a tiny niche market... if you then restrict it to centre lock you basically have no choice left.

The Rookie

TimothyW wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

Don't go centrelock discs, very limited choice and no easily available lightweight choice, why spend money on light rims to throw away 50+g on the discs? (R785 are 116g each, XTR 124g each for 160mm)

I'm pretty sure weight is a silly argument to make for 6 bolt vs centrelock, sure, the rotors might be lighter but the hubs are bound to be heavier eg Rose quote the XT 6bolt hub as being 426g vs the XT centrelock being 330 g - that's more than your 50g saving right there.

I'm also pretty certain that you'll find the weight of the 6 screws is greater than the weight of the lockring on a centrelock system, and that's the sort of thing that isn't quoted in these weight listings.

But you can only get CL in Shimano or DT Swiss, other hubs are available that are lighter for the money, such as Novatech....

I did put in the mounting weights if you hadn't cut that from your quote conveniently (for you), but go to Ti bolts and they weigh about the same as the centrelock and cost no more. For cost effective weight, 6 bolts wins hand down unless you want to spend more money.

ugo.santalucia

You are speculating about 10-20 grams at the hub that are completely irrelevant. If Centrelock was more available, it would be a more convenient solution... it's just quicker to replace the rotor and it looks a more robust system. But it's not, so 6 bolts is preferable