Hold a higher power out of saddle than seated

chaffordred

Hi, is it normal to be able to hold a higher power for longer when out of the saddle than being seated?

Once a month I do a seated FTP test. Following the test Trainer Road usually calculates my estimated FTP, but just recently I have found I can push above my threshold by being out of the saddle for long periods of time.

I understand by getting out of the saddle you are using different muscle groups and by alternating between the two your legs become less fatigued, but isn't being seated supposed to be more efficient so why do I find it easier to hold power out of the saddle for longer than being seated?

Has anyone else found this and is it normal?

Cheers.

crikey

You can produce more power while standing, with all the attendant demands that creating more power involves; higher heart rate, higher O2 consumption etc.

What exactly are you asking?

amaferanga

Which turbo?

Real or virtual power?

chaffordred

crikey wrote:

You can produce more power while standing, with all the attendant demands that creating more power involves; higher heart rate, higher O2 consumption etc.

What exactly are you asking?

I am asking why it is easier to maintain a higher power output when standing than seated when it should be the other way around.

I understand about producing more power when standing (for short periods), but when I get out of the saddle, push a big gear (65RPM) and go above my threshold my HR actually lowers. Therefore more efficient.

chaffordred

amaferanga wrote:

Which turbo?

Real or virtual power?

Tacx Flow & Rotor Crank PM

BrandonA

OVer wat time period are you able to generate more power when standing? 20:00? Or a few seconds? I hope it is the latter.

sloppyschleckonds

BrandonA wrote:

OVer wat time period are you able to generate more power when standing? 20:00? Or a few seconds? I hope it is the latter.

Get me Dave Brailsford on line 1

crikey

I understand about producing more power when standing (for short periods), but when I get out of the saddle, push a big gear (65RPM) and go above my threshold my HR actually lowers. Therefore more efficient.

The obvious answer is that your seated power is rubbish.
Standing gives you the ability to put out more power, but if your seated power is poor, you will see a huge improvement when you stand.

Try it up a long hill.

chaffordred

BrandonA wrote:

OVer wat time period are you able to generate more power when standing? 20:00? Or a few seconds? I hope it is the latter.

Over long periods of time. Anything up to 20 mins @ around 65RPM (standing).

chaffordred

crikey wrote:

I understand about producing more power when standing (for short periods), but when I get out of the saddle, push a big gear (65RPM) and go above my threshold my HR actually lowers. Therefore more efficient.

The obvious answer is that your seated power is rubbish.
Standing gives you the ability to put out more power, but if your seated power is poor, you will see a huge improvement when you stand.

Try it up a long hill.

My seated power is good. I can hold around 320W for 20 mins seated and around 350W standing over the same time period.

JayKosta

Being able to produce higher power for an extended time period while standing is not typical - most people become exhausted before the time period has ended.

For climbing at relatively slow speed, standing might work well. But on flat roads at a higher speed the wind resistance from standing would be a major problem.

I suggest that you be pleased about your ability while standing, and to devote training to improve your speed (power and aero) and endurance while seated.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

chaffordred

JayKosta wrote:

Being able to produce higher power for an extended time period while standing is not typical - most people become exhausted before the time period has ended.

For climbing at relatively slow speed, standing might work well. But on flat roads at a higher speed the wind resistance from standing would be a major problem.

I suggest that you be pleased about your ability while standing, and to devote training to improve your speed (power and aero) and endurance while seated.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

I think you're right on the money. I can put out the watts in a standing position, but this doesn't necessarily mean I go faster on the road and this is the frustrating part. I think I need to work more on training in a seated position.

This is tonight's trainer ride https://app.strava.com/activities/265697023/analysis

I was doing lap intervals in Zwift 1 lap on, 1 lap recovery. Each interval lap takes around 7-8mins. On the third interval I stayed seated for the duration, then on the fourth I stayed out of the saddle for the whole interval.

The results were:

Interval 3 (seated) Avg. Power 300W. Avg HR 160 Cadence 91

Interval 4 (standing) Avg Power 308W Avg HR 158 Cadence 69

Not huge differences, but it illustrates the higher power and lower heart rate when standing.

diy

There is a possibility you can get more air in while standing, your chest may be slightly less restricted than in a seated aero position. This could explain the HR anomaly.

amaferanga

Probably more to do with changes in the resistance of the turbo trainer when the back wheel is unloaded.

diy

How would that affect power?

IShaggy

chaffordred wrote:

The results were:

Interval 3 (seated) Avg. Power 300W. Avg HR 160 Cadence 91

Interval 4 (standing) Avg Power 308W Avg HR 158 Cadence 69

Not huge differences, but it illustrates the higher power and lower heart rate when standing.

That just illustrates a lower heart rate when riding at a lower cadence. Ride the same cadence and power when standing and your heart rate will be higher.

brettjmcc

chaffordred wrote:

Over long periods of time. Anything up to 20 mins @ around 65RPM (standing).

Paul, you are doing 20 min out of the saddle sessions, kudos (from me anyway)

Managed to find a coach yet?

Brett

chaffordred

brettjmcc wrote:

chaffordred wrote:

Over long periods of time. Anything up to 20 mins @ around 65RPM (standing).

Paul, you are doing 20 min out of the saddle sessions, kudos (from me anyway)

Managed to find a coach yet?

Brett

Marmotte training Brett. I was always crap out the saddle, so I forced myself to do them for 5 or so mins. Then they became easier than being seated! So I just carried on.

I also saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vya4EgIX4lw (skip to 2:30).

JayKosta

Additional thoughts.....

On a fitness center elliptical trainer I can typically do a higher average wattage for 1 hour than I can on the upright bike machine - in the range of 5-10 % greater on the elliptical.

But when actually riding on the road I only use standing for very short 'burst sprints', and on hills when I cannot manage to keep going without standing.

What I think this shows is that human physiology is better developed for 'standing' than for 'pedaling'. But of course the mechanical efficiency of the bicycle makes cycling a much more efficient means of transportation!

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

BrandonA

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

BrandonA wrote:

OVer wat time period are you able to generate more power when standing? 20:00? Or a few seconds? I hope it is the latter.

Get me Dave Brailsford on line 1

I don't understand your comment. I think we would both agree though that it provides no value to this discussion.

In case my original commend was too technical for you...

Mark Cavendish wouldn't stand up and sprint if he was able to generate more power over the short duration sat down. Cavendish doesn't though ride an entire 5 hour race standing as he is more efficient and comfortable sitting down and only stating for the sprint.

cougie

In the real world though - out of the saddle - your body is acting like a windbreak - so negating the small advantages of a bit extra power for the same HR.

I've never thought to do an out of the saddle FTP - but as I'd only climb out of the saddle for short periods - I dont think it is of any use.

iron_duke

Out of interest does the same hold true riding outdoors or only on the turbo?

If the latter only could this be as a result of the higher rolling resistance on the turbo?

amaferanga

diy wrote:

How would that affect power?

You're right, it won't! I forgot he had a power meter.

chaffordred

Iron_Duke wrote:

Out of interest does the same hold true riding outdoors or only on the turbo?

If the latter only could this be as a result of the higher rolling resistance on the turbo?

It's the same outdoors, especially on a slight incline.

richa

What do you weigh. More common for very light riders to prefer out of saddle?

chaffordred

RichA wrote:

What do you weigh. More common for very light riders to prefer out of saddle?

Around 76kg and 6ft tall, so definitely not a contador/quintana build

markwb79

I would always expect the power to be higher on short bursts. I assume its because you can put more weight and force onto the pedals?

But for longer efforts it surprises me.

Is this Normalized power? When I do standing intervals at a lower candence there is always a bigger gap between the two measurements. I have always assumed its down to pedaling efficiency.

chaffordred

Markwb79 wrote:

I would always expect the power to be higher on short bursts. I assume its because you can put more weight and force onto the pedals?

But for longer efforts it surprises me.

Is this Normalized power? When I do standing intervals at a lower candence there is always a bigger gap between the two measurements. I have always assumed its down to pedaling efficiency.

This is actual power, not NP. The difference is greater when my legs are rested and I'm doing a shorter workout. Standing up I can hover around 350W for around 15-20 mins without too much suffering. Obviously way into Z4, but don't feel like I'm on my limit. When seated and trying to hold around 320W (over same time period) I'm usually suffering and feel like I'm near the point of exhaustion towards the end.

styxd

Have you had a bike fit?

diy

I wonder in years to come, with all the growth of virtual racing, if the next generation of top cyclists will be built like body builders with huge muscles that they don't have to lug around attached to huge bodies that they don't have to keep out of the wind - all sprinting out of the saddle on bikes that weight 50kg to cope with the power.

just a thought. but I guess my serious point, is for cycling you don't really want to be doing too much out of the seat pedaling, unless you are an MTBer then its essential.

Dodger747

diy wrote:

but I guess my serious point, is for cycling you don't really want to be doing too much out of the seat pedaling, unless you are an MTBer then its essential.

Why not? I spend a lot of the time out of the saddle, it seems to be my natural style and something that I'm comfortable with. I therefore, try to replicate it on the turbo throughout the winter.