Look out - another peddaling question.
Eebijeebi
Posts: 91
I've been trying to find out about torque efficiency and not come up with very much so here's the question -
If my left is showing more efficient than my right, does that mean that the right leg/crank is 'unweighting' better than the left, i.e. although the left has a better figure the right is hampered by the actions of the left and vice versa?
If 'yes', and assuming it was worth working on, how does one go about correcting it/improving the figures long term.
Please don't hit me with 'it doesn't matter', I get these figures so would like to know what they're about. Will save pedal smoothness for another day!
Cheers.
If my left is showing more efficient than my right, does that mean that the right leg/crank is 'unweighting' better than the left, i.e. although the left has a better figure the right is hampered by the actions of the left and vice versa?
If 'yes', and assuming it was worth working on, how does one go about correcting it/improving the figures long term.
Please don't hit me with 'it doesn't matter', I get these figures so would like to know what they're about. Will save pedal smoothness for another day!
Cheers.
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Eebijeebi wrote:I've been trying to find out about torque efficiency and not come up with very much so here's the question -
If my left is showing more efficient than my right, does that mean that the right leg/crank is 'unweighting' better than the left, i.e. although the left has a better figure the right is hampered by the actions of the left and vice versa?
If 'yes', and assuming it was worth working on, how does one go about correcting it/improving the figures long term.
Please don't hit me with 'it doesn't matter', I get these figures so would like to know what they're about. Will save pedal smoothness for another day!
Cheers.
It is a hot topic and the state of the current power meters doesn't help. They can give you some information about what may be a "problem" but not much by way of helping understand it.
If you want to find out a bit more then I'd suggest trying to find a Wattbike. This has the option of a "polar display" which give real time view of the torque that is being applied throughout the stroke.
https://wattbike.com/uk/guide/cycling_tests/pedalling_technique_test/what_the_polar_view_shapes_mean
This should provide an insight into what is happening. It's a case of a picture (a moving one in this case) is worth a thousand words.
The shape for right and left leg should look different. It also provides a means of experimenting to see if changes make a difference. In my case for example it was a case of putting some shims under my right cleat and just focusing on using both legs evenly throughout the stroke.
Eventually this sort of information will be available on all power meters. The technology already exists
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/accessories/power-meters/product/review-factor-power-crank-14-48507/
but requires a change in Ant+ and a new generation of head units in order to take advantage of it. Once it becomes commonplace threads arguing about the benefit or otherwise of this information will I think be consigned to the same bin as those in the past that asked whether power information was any better than HR.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
PS. It is almost certainly the case that riding a fixed bike, especially for track racing helps smooth out pedal stroke. You really have no choice if you are to accelerate/decelerate from 10-150rpm.
So if you have access to either/both of these then they may also be worth trying out.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Eebijeebi wrote:Please don't hit me with 'it doesn't matter', I get these figures so would like to know what they're about.
What if "it doesn't matter" is actually a valid answer though - and by stressing about 'torque efficiencies' you are actually diverting from what your training objective should be..?
Hypothetically, of course...0 -
Imposter wrote:Eebijeebi wrote:Please don't hit me with 'it doesn't matter', I get these figures so would like to know what they're about.
What if "it doesn't matter" is actually a valid answer though - and by stressing about 'torque efficiencies' you are actually diverting from what your training objective should be..?
Hypothetically, of course...
Here we go again!
1. I'm not stressing about anything.
2. I'd like to find out what I can because I'm interested to do so - then decide whether I think it matters.
3. It's not diverting me from my training objectives.
The world used to be flat - or so they were told at the time.0 -
Interesting thoughts on the Wattbike re a visual of the pedal stroke etc.
PM is Infocrank (makes me a bit of a guinea pig I think) which is apparently very accurate on both power and torque.0 -
It depends how far out it is, what might have caused it, the general quality of your stroke and if your goal is short term power or longer term endurance. Irrelevant of balance I'd always start with quality of stroke, fix that and then adjust balance if it makes a difference.
Individual leg power is less important for distance/endurance training as its not this which keeps you going. If however, you have an injury, are simply trying to up your sprint power, or hit some arbitrary numbers then there are things you can do.
If you can see where the "weakness" is in the stroke then you can identify the affected muscle.
e.g. 12 o clock - 3 : glutes, 3-6 quads/calves etc.
The view that strength / weight training has no place is cycle training is not universally accepted. The articles are worth reading even if you dismiss them:
Look at the references here - lots of claims to support strength training for both endurance and sprints
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/how-to- ... cling.html0 -
Would 'quality of stroke' relate to pedal smoothness?
Are torque efficiency and pedal smoothness (didn't really want to do two subjects at once) related, i.e one directly affects the other?
I get about the left/right power balance not mattering for endurance, even if I hold some reservations (went painfully through that a few days ago!), this is a question about torque efficiency and asking is it the action of one leg that reduces the efficiency of the other, i.e. left leg has better 'efficiency' because the right is behaving better?0 -
No - not in my experience - its about developing the muscle memory. For me even a 20 second burst at max watts, my stroke is pretty smooth and my balance pretty even. I don't have a primary leg and a secondary leg. But I been training with watt bikes for a while now and they have improved my stroke quite a bit. I've no idea if its that or a general improvement in fitness/muscle size which has upped my power, but its gone up a bit since I started focusing on it.
The real risk you have though is focusing too much on static bike power, which doesn't develop in to road riding performance.0 -
What is torque efficiency?0
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Tom Dean wrote:What is torque efficiency?
However one should be careful in how this metric is interpreted as it's important to consider both gravitational and inertial factors when evaluating independent crank/pedal torque data. This metric is not accounting for those factors.
That's a way of saying such metrics are easily misinterpreted, e.g. just because some negative torque is reported does not mean there is a problem with your pedalling.
Devices that provide net torque data from both legs combined mask over this even further.0 -
Alex, that looks like the diagram that got me asking.
I'm seeing that as one leg/revolution where the P- comes from that leg/crank only and not from one side/leg to the other, although I imagine it would apply that would apply too?
Leg should be pushing, pulling or lifting but never resting on?0 -
When did turning pedals on a bike become so complicated? I think people that delve this deep into such subjects are just procrastinating when they could be training.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0
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Grill wrote:When did turning pedals on a bike become so complicated? I think people that delve this deep into such subjects are just procrastinating when they could be training.
Really not helpful. Please don't deride others desire to understand things. As for procrastination, you have no idea what others commitments are with their time.0 -
Looking at your other posts, you have a tendency to straw man, even when answers with reference are provided. The fact is that focusing on such abstract concepts are not beneficial to your riding. Asymmetry is normal.
If you really want insight on this sort of thing then go get a 3D pedal analysis from The Triathlon Shop in Bristol as they just had a Shimano Fit System delivered a few days ago.English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
Eebijeebi wrote:Leg should be pushing, pulling or lifting but never resting on?
Thats it, but better to think pedal in circles - leg should be "rotating". Stamping is what gives you -p0 -
Grill wrote:Looking at your other posts, you have a tendency to straw man, even when answers with reference are provided. The fact is that focusing on such abstract concepts are not beneficial to your riding. Asymmetry is normal.
If you really want insight on this sort of thing then go get a 3D pedal analysis from The Triathlon Shop in Bristol as they just had a Shimano Fit System delivered a few days ago.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
Really? Not sure that would stand up to scrutiny. But anyway, if that's what you think then so be it, but why not just stay out if you're not actually going to contribute? By your words you should be training.0 -
Eebijeebi wrote:Grill wrote:Looking at your other posts, you have a tendency to straw man, even when answers with reference are provided. The fact is that focusing on such abstract concepts are not beneficial to your riding. Asymmetry is normal.
If you really want insight on this sort of thing then go get a 3D pedal analysis from The Triathlon Shop in Bristol as they just had a Shimano Fit System delivered a few days ago.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
Really? Not sure that would stand up to scrutiny. But anyway, if that's what you think then so be it, but why not just stay out if you're not actually going to contribute? By your words you should be training.
So you're not interested in a 3D pedalling analysis? Interesting...
Don't you worry about my training, it's been specially devised for me by my coach who took me on despite my asymmetric pedalling. :PEnglish Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0 -
English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg0
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Grill wrote:
I was looking for your explanation of what it does and how it improves performance, not publicity hype.0 -
Grill wrote:Eebijeebi wrote:Grill wrote:Looking at your other posts, you have a tendency to straw man, even when answers with reference are provided. The fact is that focusing on such abstract concepts are not beneficial to your riding. Asymmetry is normal.
If you really want insight on this sort of thing then go get a 3D pedal analysis from The Triathlon Shop in Bristol as they just had a Shimano Fit System delivered a few days ago.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
Really? Not sure that would stand up to scrutiny. But anyway, if that's what you think then so be it, but why not just stay out if you're not actually going to contribute? By your words you should be training.
So you're not interested in a 3D pedalling analysis? Interesting...
Yes, you strike me as special.
Don't you worry about my training, it's been specially devised for me by my coach who took me on despite my asymmetric pedalling. :P
Yes, you strike me as a bit special.0 -
Tom Dean wrote:[
did you read bahzob's post about the wattbike polar view?
http://axiscranks.com/market-applicatio ... le-cranks/0 -
For analyzing power application for pedaling, the ideal tool would measure each pedal separately and be able to detect and display the actual amount and direction of force on the pedal through the entire crank rotation.
Some devices only actually measure the power on the crank spindle (or the chain/rear wheel) and attempt through mathematical modeling to produce a left/right estimation of power distribution.
And yes, gravitation, momentum, and inertia all have to be considered.
Of the few things that seems to be generally agreed about pedaling, is that using ACTIVE muscle force in a manner that doesn't contribute to some degree in power production is bad.
Allowing muscles to relax and to be moved by the pedal is not necessarily 'bad', but it might result in less overall power production.
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA0 -
In other words pedal in circles. 0
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be able to detect and display the actual amount and direction of force on the pedal through the entire crank rotation.
The research has been done on exactly this. (I can't find it at moment...)
It showed that power production in amateurs comes from pressing down on the pedals.
It showed that power production in pros comes from pressing down on the pedals a lot harder.0
