What determines bike prices?

sjsharks

I'm looking at two different bikes that are in the same sort of low-mid budget price range but have a very different spec (on the face of things). I know the old saying "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is", but I can't see the obvious problem, so I'm wondering if anyone else can point out the difference.

The first is the Specialized Diverge: http://www.evanscycles.com/products/spe ... e-ec070561

The second is the Planet X London Road "Argento": http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBPXLDNRDT ... p-bar-bike

They both have relaxed geometry 6061 alloy frames, drop bars, carbon forks, compact chainset, no pedals, mechanical disc brakes, own-brand tyres and look perfect for all-year commuting.

The difference is the Planet X is £650 and has a Tiagra groupset, whereas the Specialized is £750 and only has Claris. On the face of things, I'd be mad to get the Specialized given that, but am I?

I suppose what I'm asking is, why is the lower spec bike a higher price? Am I missing something that means over the longer term, the Specialized is actually the better deal?

ugo.santalucia

Prices are staggered 799; 999; 1199; 1599 and so on... they try to stuff as much well visible good stuff and invisible junk they can to make a tiny profit

pastryboy

Paying for the brand name.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if both frames were made in the same factory.

sjsharks

But what is that "invisible junk", both generally and in this case?

Is it incidentals like clamps, bolts and spacers or something actually important? For example, will the more expensive but lower spec bikes have much better welds so it'll last longer?

If we were talking cars, you'll pay more for a Volkswagen Golf than a Hyundai i30, but the idea is that you might get a slightly lower spec but much better quality so in the long run you pay less in upkeep and it lasts longer. Is it the same principle here? Despite the higher spec, will the cheaper bike need more looking after or wear out sooner?

Or is it just like paying the 'Apple tax' with computers? Exactly the same components used as Dell, but they charge more for it just "because it's Apple"?

Monty Dog

If you work in marketing you'll understand that prices often bear little relationship to cost - it's all about brand perceptions and value. Because Specialized is a 'brand' then people perceive they're getting better value from things like warranties and support rather than just the metal, plastic and rubber. Planet-X buy components direct from the factories, assembling them and effectively cutting out the bike shop so you tend to get better specification for your money.

alex222

According to the Which survey Hyundai are more reliable than VW.

sjsharks

Alex222 wrote:

According to the Which survey Hyundai are more reliable than VW.

That was probably a poor example on my part, but it does kind of show what I'm saying and what Ugo said above.

When you buy the VW, everything is just that bit better quality. The Hyundai might have the better 'drivetrain' (kind of the bike equivalent of the London Road above, cheaper but technically better spec), but in the VW all the 'other' things will be better.

The seats will be more comfortable, the dashboard is a higher quality, the air con works and keeps working, things like the door seals don't start going. All those things cost money, which is why it's more expensive and why they skimp slightly on the drivetrain.

What I'm asking is, is that the case with the Specialized vs. PlanetX above? Does the PlanetX have a better spec drivetrain, but all those 'little things' that add up to the overall experience of the bike are just that bit worse? Is that what you pay for in the branded bike?

Or are you just paying for the name and the overall experience will be the same (or even better) on the cheaper but higher specced bike?

Anonymous

Which one do you want?
If you want the Specialized then you have kind of answered your own question.

One is a big brand who has marketing, advertising and sponsorship costs, that you can view and pick up locally from a third party that has to make a profit.

The other isn't, doesn't, and you can't.

debeli

Before very long, the tyres will be changed and then (in due course) the oily bits.

The only bit (barring accident damage) that lasts as long as the bike is the frame.

Pay for the frame - pretty much everything else is a service item - if you are vague about service intervals and time.

Buy the bike that appeals to you. Don't be bamboozled by a brand name, but don't deliberately avoid one either.

Bike prices are determined by what the market will bear. If you're after a commuter, buy the one you want to ride to and from work. And have fun!

Anonymous

Debeli wrote:

Before very long, the tyres will be changed and then (in due course) the oily bits.

The only bit (barring accident damage) that lasts as long as the bike is the frame.

Pay for the frame - pretty much everything else is a service item - if you are vague about service intervals and time.

How long is 'in due course'?
By 'oily bits', do you mean the groupset? Why on earth would you change that?

Have had my groupset 3 years and no plan to change it. Then again, I did buy the one I wanted in the first place. Rather than buy one I did not want, convince myself I would soon be upgrading it, and then riding around on it waiting for that day to happen.

Whats a 'service item'? Chain, cassette, cables, brake pads and tyres maybe. The other bits (apart from groupset) are upgradeable through choice, but cannot see what they have to do with servicing.

You buy a bike based on frame and groupset mainly IMO.

iron-clover

Even the most complex bicycle is a very simple machine compared to any car.

Any bike you buy will have components that wear out at around the same rate (YMMV) with the exception possibly of really poor tyres, especially on the short timescales that wear occurs in. The only thing that really varies is the cost of the parts.
On both of the bikes you've shown the parts will 'feel' pretty much the same. The big differences are frame, wheels and to lesser extent the tyres- the other parts are going to be so similar to each other at that price you won't be able to blind test them.

The difference in cost in this case is as the others have said- brand power inflating the Spesh's price, and lack of middle men on the part of PX. The bikes themselves would probably cost roughly the same for both manufacturers to put together, although the cost of the PX drivetrain would be ever so slightly higher but not much due to massive bulk they would be able to order in.

Just because it is more expensive with lower spec will not mean it works better- you already know how well the individual components will work. The only variable is the frame- how it handles and 'feels', although at this price point I doubt you'll notice much difference unless either party has made a real mess of their frame, which I doubt.

Karlos69

Has it got something to do with the colour?
Without meaning to sound rude, the silver one looks like a girl's bike.

debeli

Carbonator wrote:

How long is 'in due course'?
By 'oily bits', do you mean the groupset? Why on earth would you change that?

Have had my groupset 3 years and no plan to change it. Then again, I did buy the one I wanted in the first place. Rather than buy one I did not want, convince myself I would soon be upgrading it, and then riding around on it waiting for that day to happen.

Whats a 'service item'? Chain, cassette, cables, brake pads and tyres maybe. The other bits (apart from groupset) are upgradeable through choice, but cannot see what they have to do with servicing.

You buy a bike based on frame and groupset mainly IMO.

A 'service item' is something that will wear out or become unuseable and get replaced. On a car, the main ones are oil, tyres, brakes. There are other things like clutches and bearings and batteries that will need attention 'in due course'.

On my older bicycles, the only parts still present are frame and forks, the occasional wheel and parts of the handlebar assembly. Everything else wore out and was replaced, often several times.

My newer bicycles were bought in a pick 'n' mix sort of semi-bespoke way (all off-the-shelf but put together by my trusted LBS to my specification). In every case, the frame is the thing. Everything else will go, in due course.

I am happy to be wrong on this, but my definition of 'service item' squarely matches my experience for the past forty-plus years of riding with enthusiasm if not actual speed. If cycling is a recently-acquired fad or 'new favourite thing' that will be forgotten in five years, then fascinating about groupsets is fine. But they will wear out or bend or snap if you use the toy and you will replace them. Other opinions, although wrong, are acceptable.

Anonymous

^ That all sounds a very accurate description of cycling over 40 years, but still has nothing to do with your original comment on picking a bike based on frame only and not caring what other bits are on it.

You should care what is on it from day 1. Either by buying it that way, or by quickly swapping out the bad parts that unfortunately get put on stock bikes.
When bits wear out you can of course upgrade, but you should not buy a bike with that day in mind IMO.

A lot of people will just get a new bike anyway if they are new to cycling.
It does not mean its a fad to them, it means they are getting more into it, not less.
I do not think the Diverge or London road will, or should, be bought to last that long anyway.

diamonddog

pastryboy wrote:

Paying for the brand name.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if both frames were made in the same factory.

^^This

MountainMonster

I bought a Planet X London Road, the £999 one. It's a smashing bike, and I would go for that.

Then again, that is only my opinion.

gozzy

Karlos69 wrote:

Has it got something to do with the colour?
Without meaning to sound rude, the silver one looks like a girl's bike.

"Without meaning to sound rude" ... And then you go and make such a stupid comment.

If you're going to make comments like that, expect to be called out on them.

Manc33

Its groupset. Watch out for cheap shifters and cranksets, them putting a flashy rear mech on like XT/Ultegra to make it look snazzy when nothing else on the bike is at that level. Rear mechs aren't all that! I would be more concerned with what headset it has got, than the rear mech. Every cheap bike has heavy wheels too but I ended up preferring it that way, roads do have potholes. :roll:

MountainMonster

Carbonator wrote:

^ That all sounds a very accurate description of cycling over 40 years, but still has nothing to do with your original comment on picking a bike based on frame only and not caring what other bits are on it.

You should care what is on it from day 1. Either by buying it that way, or by quickly swapping out the bad parts that unfortunately get put on stock bikes.
When bits wear out you can of course upgrade, but you should not buy a bike with that day in mind IMO.

A lot of people will just get a new bike anyway if they are new to cycling.
It does not mean its a fad to them, it means they are getting more into it, not less.
I do not think the Diverge or London road will, or should, be bought to last that long anyway.

I don't really mind what other parts are on there, as long as the bike shifts without issue, and as long as it is comfortable. For me, frame is the most important. While spending more on components may get you lighter parts and marginally improved shifting, for example, it doesn't make the bike any more fun to ride, so even basic components are OK by me.

I think a big part is how you perceive the bike. Once you realise that even cheaper parts will shift, and that the bike runs perfectly fine, then for me, looks are the second most important thing. Spend the extra bit of kit on a bike making it look nice

N0bodyOfTheGoat

One thing I'm very aware of is how much more expensive prices are back to the period 2006-2009 when I got my last three bikes.

Back then it was possible to get...
10-speed 105 equipped road bikes, with carbon frame and fork, for ~£1000 if you shopped around.
An Alfine hub geared hybrid bike, hydaraulic brakes for ~£400, if you shopped around.
A single speed cross bike, alu frame but carbon fork, for ~£300 if you shopped around.

ugo.santalucia

If you want a bit of a reality check about the industry, a Specialized Allez alloy frame, as it comes out of the factory is worth 15 USD, while a mid range carbon frame from the same make is about 50 USD... by the time it's stickered and arrived to the shop the prices are about 20-30 times that.
It is no surprise that even when these things are heavily discounted, there is a profit margin left

plowmar

Quick check on spec and the Planet x seems to have 29" wheels whilst the spesh has 700mm wheels - different sizes?, also the spesh has 16 gears with a compact double whereas the planet x has 22 gears with compact double, - has 11 speed got down to tiagra? are both bikes the same year ? - just thoughts.

gozzy

The px has tiagra 10 speed.
29ers are mtb name for 700c

plowmar

Corrected re wheel size but px detail says it has 22 gears!.

Moonbiker

Think it was maybe rival 11 speed groupset before being tiagra & they haven'y updated info properly .

Manc33

IMO its worth swapping to the best shifters like Dura-Ace/XTR even if the rest is 105/SLX.

Bikes with a full top groupset are silly prices like £3000+

Bikes with mid range stuff on like 105 are in the £1500 bracket.

I think the best bet is get a £1500 bike with all 105 stuff on it, sell off the 105 shifters and get Dura Ace. You've probably had to go another £250 down to do it but to me good shifters make the bike what it is when I'm riding it. Your total expense then would be £1750 and you'd have the best shifters.

After the shifters who cares lol. One thing I know is you can't enjoy riding a bike for one second if it isn't shifting gear properly... but then there's fussy people that won't enjoy riding a bike that changes gear fine knowing there's shifters not on the bike that shift even better (me). :oops:

chris_bass

Manc33 wrote:

IMO its worth swapping to the best shifters like Dura-Ace/XTR even if the rest is 105/SLX.

Bikes with a full top groupset are silly prices like £3000+

Bikes with mid range stuff on like 105 are in the £1500 bracket.

I think the best bet is get a £1500 bike with all 105 stuff on it, sell off the 105 shifters and get Dura Ace. You've probably had to go another £250 down to do it but to me good shifters make the bike what it is when I'm riding it. Your total expense then would be £1750 and you'd have the best shifters.

After the shifters who cares lol. One thing I know is you can't enjoy riding a bike for one second if it isn't shifting gear properly... but then there's fussy people that won't enjoy riding a bike that changes gear fine knowing there's shifters not on the bike that shift even better (me). :oops:

Judging by some of your previous posts your bike would shift better if you took your shifters off and just pulled the cable by hand!

keef66

"Or are you just paying for the name and the overall experience will be the same (or even better) on the cheaper but higher specced bike?"

You got it right there. Trek, Specialized and friends have large marketing budgets to support and then a margin to give to retailers. The direct to customer retailers like Planet X, Ribble, Rose and Canyon spend much less and don't have retailer margins, and can pass on the savings to us.

Get the frame and all the other stuff you want from the start. My first bike I went custom and specced the frameset and every component. Apart from chains and tyres wearing out, eveything else is still working fine after seven years. So if I'd bought an off the shelf bike with a poorer mix of wheels / components I'd have been waiting a long time to justify upgrading them...

Life's too short to ride stuff you're not entirely happy with.

chris_bass

That's all great if you can afford to do that, but i think the question is if you can afford either a good frame with worse components or a worse frame but good components, which do you go for if they are the same price?

tangled_metal

I'm also looking at the PX London Road "Argento" model with the Tiagra 10 speed at £649. The SRAM 11 speed is £900 IIRC. Since I have a top budget of £800 I think this argento version is my best option (or the Pinnacle Arkose £700 version with Sora 9 speed). The Tiagra 10 speed is selling The LR for me right now but never bought a bike online before so we'll see how that works.

As far as brand go I was very happy with my heavily discounted Spesh hybrid. The sale knocked off a bit of the marketing costs I reckon. I reckon it made it favourable to these PX type of retailers. A local bike shop sells a lot of Trek bikes but IMHO they are worse than Spesh in terms of being expensive for what you get. I think Kona are similar (although they are a bit querky if you ask me). I would say you end up spending at least £100 for the same spec in Trek as you do in Spesh.

I reckon the likes of PlanetX are probably the same as Pinnacle in Evans but slightly cheaper or better specced. The Pinnacles tend to offer better spec over the other brands I've looked at in Evans.

Whatever the spec for the bike choice you make I think at £650 you aren't getting a great bike more a functional one that meets your needs. Nothing fancy it just works but not as well as at £1000 or £1500. That is the way these things are, you do get what you pay for and if that is not much then you have no choice but compromise what you can expect. Although it does seem from reviews that the london Road is a decent bike.

keef66

Chris Bass wrote:

That's all great if you can afford to do that, but i think the question is if you can afford either a good frame with worse components or a worse frame but good components, which do you go for if they are the same price?

I think at the time it cost about £100 more than the closest off the shelf equivalent, but I've saved more than that by not having to replace any of the components.

I think the OP's choice was between similar frames but the PX had better kit for less money. No brainer.