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Improving endurance on medium climbs.

The secret riderThe secret rider Posts: 812
edited March 2015 in Road beginners
I'm new to road riding and come from MTB

Ive noticed and other have commented I have good power climbing where the climb is >1min lets say however over this i struggle.

I don't bolt up the hills like I do when sprinting up the >1min ones i try and pace myself but still i find i dont have the endurance to keep any sort of pace.

I dont have issues with breathing or getting air so I think at least for what i have tackled so far cardio vascular fitness is ok but rather my legs seems to give up.

Any thoughts on how i can train for these hills to allow me to keep my average pace up.

cheers.

Posts

  • Keep at it is the obvious answer!

    Keep testing yourself on a local hill with a strava segment, preferably with a mix of gradients. Experiment while you are finding what the best way is for you personally to climb. Try higher cadence with an easier gear, try the opposite of that. Try climbing in and out of the saddle over different gradients.

    You will eventually find out what works for you and improve as you go.
  • JayKostaJayKosta Posts: 635
    ...
    but still i find i dont have the endurance to keep any sort of pace.
    ...
    cardio vascular fitness is ok but rather my legs seems to give up.
    ...

    I think this means your cardio vascular fitness needs training for longer duration situations.

    You probably have plenty of 'leg strength' for short time periods, but you need to improve (by more endurance riding) the blood flow for your muscles - to provide long term 'fuel' and to remove lactic acid, etc.

    Jay Kosta
    Endwell NY USA
  • kajjalkajjal Posts: 3,380
    Also have a read on bike fit / setup. Unlike a mountain bike road bikes have to be setup more accurately as you don't move round the bike as much and ride smoother. You may find as well as the above advice a few setup tweaks will help you out. Eventually you will learn the techniques while building fitness and confidence.
  • JayKosta wrote:
    ...
    but still i find i dont have the endurance to keep any sort of pace.
    ...
    cardio vascular fitness is ok but rather my legs seems to give up.
    ...

    I think this means your cardio vascular fitness needs training for longer duration situations.

    You probably have plenty of 'leg strength' for short time periods, but you need to improve (by more endurance riding) the blood flow for your muscles - to provide long term 'fuel' and to remove lactic acid, etc.

    Jay Kosta
    Endwell NY USA

    kajjal wrote:
    Also have a read on bike fit / setup. Unlike a mountain bike road bikes have to be setup more accurately as you don't move round the bike as much and ride smoother. You may find as well as the above advice a few setup tweaks will help you out. Eventually you will learn the techniques while building fitness and confidence.

    Yes this makes sense, I will look into endurance riding as a way to train for this to allow more blood flow to those muscles. thanks for the tips.
    deer_dance wrote:
    Keep at it is the obvious answer!

    Keep testing yourself on a local hill with a strava segment, preferably with a mix of gradients. Experiment while you are finding what the best way is for you personally to climb. Try higher cadence with an easier gear, try the opposite of that. Try climbing in and out of the saddle over different gradients.

    You will eventually find out what works for you and improve as you go.

    Thanks for this, I will keep my eyes open for a suitable hill / hills to train on thanks again.

    Will go away and read about bike set up now.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,019
    If you are not used to spending an extended amount of time at a certain level of intensity, then simply do more training at just above (short bursts) or just below (longer efforts) those levels.
  • BobbinogsBobbinogs Posts: 4,841
    I would forget about your average pace at the moment and just work on a combination of riding up a known medium climb at a sustainable effort. This rate should be tough but sustainable for all but the last 50 yards of the climb when you can just power the rest. If you are too worn out with 50 to go then you have overcooked it.

    Mix these rides with some harder sessions where you ride up a medium climb in three sections, first section at your sustainable rate...2nd section should be very hard (but not sprinting)...last section just back off, drop a gear or two and just try and make it over the crest without resorting to the walk of shame.

    After a few months you should find that sustaining power becomes easier...and you will develop a better idea of what your body can/cannot do.

    Some folks will mention staying seated or higher cadence but we are all different and you can experiment to see what works for you.
  • Bobbinogs wrote:
    Some folks will mention staying seated or higher cadence but we are all different and you can experiment to see what works for you.

    I agree with this, I climb better than a few of my friends, and I climb out the seat, I am by no means an expert climber, but find it easier standing, I need to change my technique though I think, as I noticed Chris Froome (I will never be him, and don't expect to be) has a great climbing technique, often stood up
    Kev
    PlanetX Pro Carbon
    Voodoo Bizango
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,585 Lives Here
    Different riders spend more or less time in the saddle, so don't worry too much what pros do, just what works for you.

    How long do the hills typically last for? Focus on doing lots of efforts of the equivalent time. Climbs lasting 7 minutes? Focus on doing lots of 7-8 minute efforts. More you do, the better.

    Fairly simple really. MTB riding typically requires shorter more explosive burts, which would explain why you're better at those short efforts.
  • napoleondnapoleond Posts: 18,633
    As rick said, I've always found MTB riding as 'on or off', like driving a car by only having the accelerator either fully depressed or not at all.

    Road riding is more about dosing your effort, like driving from a to b in the fastest possible time that allows maximum fuel efficiency.
    Twitter - @NapD
    Strava - Alex Taylor (sportstest.co.uk)
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • KevChallisKevChallis Posts: 646
    Different riders spend more or less time in the saddle, so don't worry too much what pros do, just what works for you.

    How long do the hills typically last for? Focus on doing lots of efforts of the equivalent time. Climbs lasting 7 minutes? Focus on doing lots of 7-8 minute efforts. More you do, the better.

    Fairly simple really. MTB riding typically requires shorter more explosive burts, which would explain why you're better at those short efforts.

    I didn't mean I was, just I am stood up and move around a lot, where as a better climb technique if stood, is to move your bike around your body, is that true?
    Kev
    PlanetX Pro Carbon
    Voodoo Bizango
  • JayKostaJayKosta Posts: 635
    napoleond wrote:
    ...
    Road riding is more about dosing your effort, like driving from a to b in the fastest possible time that allows maximum fuel efficiency.

    I'd say 'acceptable fuel efficiency' rather than 'maximum'.
    But yes - 'dosing your effort' to give the amount of enjoyment, exercise, and exhaustion that you want!

    Jay Kosta
    Endwell NY USA
  • Thanks for all the replies, great to have so much to read into.

    Ref the length of the climbs being so new to road riding what most people see as short i guess is my long.

    There was a climb recently which was about 11 mins long ( for me ) 7 mins for top guys on Strava. aprox 400ft gain to a total height of 700ft.

    But to be honest there is another back home which climbs about 100ft in aprox 43 seconds ( KOM on strava ) but im 53seconds . . . but just destroyed at the top thats me giving it everything i've got. Although this is not so long i think it shows me perhaps i need to get stronger as perhaps my sprinting ( short hills ) muscles are not as good as i thought they were :)

    Time in the saddle needed !?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,585 Lives Here
    Practice on longer hills is needed ;)
  • Practice on longer hills is needed ;)

    Found one last night on a route we will be taking regular, with this thread in mind pushed as much as i could. Some way off the best times, which of course is understandable but i was so short on breath ! Obviously not as fit as i thought i was as i went past the point of 4 in 4 out breathing and was struggling to get air in :(

    Guess its time for some spin classes or interval training. ? Is there any way to train for this type of thing without being on the bike ? Does it require time in the gym is so what sort of thing is best ( i have read intervals are good for this type of gain ? ) I have access to the gym but i dont for example have a turbo trainer.

    Here is the hill. ( Not a huge gain I know of elevation.

    Screen%20Shot%202015-03-05%20at%2009.46.45_zpspb9bgqzq.png
  • napoleondnapoleond Posts: 18,633
    The best thing for this type of training is riding up the hill repeatedly.
    The only thing you can do off the bike to improve it is eat less.
    Twitter - @NapD
    Strava - Alex Taylor (sportstest.co.uk)
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • napoleond wrote:
    The best thing for this type of training is riding up the hill repeatedly.
    The only thing you can do off the bike to improve it is eat less.

    Already on a diet as not exactly light at circa 85KGs ! + a 11.5KG bike but thats what it is for now but rest assured im doing what i can.

    Is the shortness of breath not something that can be trained for without the bike ie when i dont have tie to ride but perhaps have 30 mins spare.
  • napoleondnapoleond Posts: 18,633
    Turbo?
    Twitter - @NapD
    Strava - Alex Taylor (sportstest.co.uk)
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • napoleond wrote:
    Turbo?

    This is what i was asking ?
  • napoleondnapoleond Posts: 18,633
    napoleond wrote:
    Turbo?

    This is what i was asking ?


    Yes. Turbo.
    Twitter - @NapD
    Strava - Alex Taylor (sportstest.co.uk)
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • nammynakenammynake Posts: 196
    The climb you posted above is 8 minutes long (at your pace). This is sufficiently long to require a threshold effort, rather than very short climbs (1 minute or less) which are anaerobic, or slightly longer (3-5 minutes) which are VO2max. You need to build your threshold power, i.e. that which you can sustain for longer periods, or rather your threshold power to weight ratio.

    Train using longer intervals - if you have a turbo the old 2x20 minute workout is very effective. Trim off any excess weight (fat) at the same time and your power to weight will rise.

    You'll notice the VAM (circa 700) quoted for your effort on that segment. This means you ascended at the rate of 700 vertical metres per hour. A reasonable climber (club level) can sustain that rate of ascent for an hour or more (pro climbers probably double that).
  • nammynake wrote:
    The climb you posted above is 8 minutes long (at your pace). This is sufficiently long to require a threshold effort, rather than very short climbs (1 minute or less) which are anaerobic, or slightly longer (3-5 minutes) which are VO2max. You need to build your threshold power, i.e. that which you can sustain for longer periods, or rather your threshold power to weight ratio.

    Train using longer intervals - if you have a turbo the old 2x20 minute workout is very effective. Trim off any excess weight (fat) at the same time and your power to weight will rise.

    You'll notice the VAM (circa 700) quoted for your effort on that segment. This means you ascended at the rate of 700 vertical metres per hour. A reasonable climber (club level) can sustain that rate of ascent for an hour or more (pro climbers probably double that).


    Thank for this - I have taken what you said and looked into this 2 x 20 from what i gather its 20 mins of hard graft 10 mins of easy leg spinning and then repeat. Sounds doable. Ive just picked up a fluid trainer so should now be able to trim of much needed fat as t aprox. 89KG its not helping.

    Went out today to a route i did when i started cycling a few months back where there is a training loop, My first attempt 1 month ago was 10.52 today i managed 7.48. KOM is 6.52 at present. On this route there is always insane winds as it is a lighthouse route so goes right onto coast of north sea. Really felt it today. Have a look

    Screen%20Shot%202015-03-07%20at%2018.41.18_zpsjxfqatnm.png

    I really like this short route as it has a mix of some steeper hills some longer hills and some rests. I hope to be able to challenge for the KOM eventually (hopefully before summer when all the fast guys come out to play ) :)

    Would you advise the sae training for this type of hill also ?

    Th other two things you mentioned i am keen to learn more about them and how to train for them also - i guess how to get the most out of my turbo trainer that will translate to benefits on the road. FYI i have aprox 30 mins in the AM pre breakfast and evening times circa 1hr / 1hr 30 spare time.

    Fat loss is also a key goal obviously at 89kgs !
  • Took some more time out of it this morning not much but some . . .

    Screen%20Shot%202015-03-08%20at%2010.00.31_zpsldr3b2fk.png
  • telesv650telesv650 Posts: 59
    I find it is best to concentrate on getting into a rhythm on a climb. Try to find a gear where you can complete the climb at one pace and concentrate on the rhythm of your legs. Forget speed and power, that will come with time and practice.
  • telesv650 wrote:
    I find it is best to concentrate on getting into a rhythm on a climb. Try to find a gear where you can complete the climb at one pace and concentrate on the rhythm of your legs. Forget speed and power, that will come with time and practice.

    Thanks mate I will try this next time i am out on the road.
  • I tried this tonight on my new purchase ( cycle ops fluid trainer )

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQxo1lZ ... mC&index=4

    Was really hard going, had no way of measuring HR or Cadence so just guessed but really good workout !

    Should help I hope !
  • g00seg00se Posts: 2,221
    It's you're using a turbo to train for long climbs, have a look at trainerroad.com - they have training plans aimed at various disciplines - for long climbs (alpine like), time-trial type efforts are the most similar. Uses virtual power curves for trainers so you can target threshold and VO2max efforts more accurately.
  • g00se wrote:
    It's you're using a turbo to train for long climbs, have a look at trainerroad.com - they have training plans aimed at various disciplines - for long climbs (alpine like), time-trial type efforts are the most similar. Uses virtual power curves for trainers so you can target threshold and VO2max efforts more accurately.

    Hey thanks for the reply. I just used the workout above as it's what came up on YouTube. gCN stuff looks half decent.

    Hoping to use it once a day to alternate between fat loss sessions an more specific training sessions however it's hard without HRM or cadence however looking to get a Garmin 500/800 soon (I've put a wanted add up) so that should allow me to train more effectively.
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