Response to a 'bad riding' complaint

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Comments

  • cuichulain
    cuichulain Posts: 5
    Sometimes cyclists think "Its my right" and just ride there

    It is his right, though (in the sense that it's everyone's right to do anything they're not legally compelled to avoid doing). He's a 'carriage', travelling on the carriageway, and has as much right to the middle of the lane as you do. What you want is for him to do you a favour, by letting you through, but it doesn't sound like that by the way you're talking.

    I think we've all been in situations where helpful and considerate actions have, over time, first been taken for granted, then expected, then demanded of us. Maybe a little bit of 'them and us' (within reasonable limits of course) is appropriate to redress this sense of entitlement?
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Bozman wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    Everyone just keep doing what you are doing. A lot of the people who complain about cyclists are the same people who complain about people walking too slowly side by side on the pavement or getting in their way in the supermarket. They are just ignorant @rseholes who just have no tolerance for other people. It will fall on deaf ears as usual. Cycling is here to stay and no matter how much the anti cycling brigade shout,wee-wee or moan they will never get their way because no MP or council is ever going to commit career suicide by banning or restricting our use of the highway without giving us a reasonable alternative.

    Not every road is cycling friendly and personal judgement should always be taken on any road. Yes you may have a right ti cycle on a twisty badly designed road but if you are willing to argue with a 2 tonne steel object then go ahead. Its best just to stay safe , legal and resist confrontation. That way they have less ammunition against us for their petty selfish complaints

    And this attitude is why cycling is getting a bad press.. Them and us.

    Please explain why? I am saying DO NOT BE CONFRONTATIONAL. are you suggestion we should fuel the fire by shouting back or breaking the law? If you stick to what is legal and the highway code you give them no ammunition. Sorry if you read that wrong. Stick to how you ride in pairs and take prime position. How is that he wrong attitude?
  • homers_double
    homers_double Posts: 8,292
    Can we see a copy of said complaint email?
    Advocate of disc brakes.
  • Simon_Rhino
    Simon_Rhino Posts: 66
    homers double wrote:
    Can we see a copy of said complaint email?

    in case I made it up? :roll:

    with the complainant having had the courtesy to contact us 'in private' rather than in an open letter to the local rag, I'll show him the same respect in not publishing his e-mail on an open forum
  • homers_double
    homers_double Posts: 8,292
    Simon_Rhino wrote:
    homers double wrote:
    Can we see a copy of said complaint email?

    in case I made it up? :roll:

    with the complainant having had the courtesy to contact us 'in private' rather than in an open letter to the local rag, I'll show him the same respect in not publishing his e-mail on an open forum

    Not at all, not everyone comes on to the internet with the sole intention of lying, but I do appreciate the latter part of your post.
    Advocate of disc brakes.
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Simon, it was clear what it was you were asking for and why :lol:

    However, 75% of the posters on this thread seem to have taken it as an opportunity to get off on an anti-motorist rant, which is just as than-and-us tribal as the anti-cyclist comments you'd get at the bottom of an article on the Daily Mail website :roll:

    Back out now and leave them to it !
  • downhill paul
    downhill paul Posts: 236
    Simon_Rhino wrote:
    His complaint didn't mention 'road tax', although as I mentioned (and as I'm sure most reading will have had happen to them at some point) it does often seem the first recourse of the irate motorist. My 'apology' was to LeTap73 (not DownHill Paul) who seemed to take offence at the (non) mention of road tax in the reply he got to his complaint and the one I haven't sent to ours?

    I didn't take offense to anything. you said thanks after someone else posted a link to an article you were looking for, you also said, I won't be surprised if we get a reply involving our non-payment of 'road tax' etc etc etc.
    so I simply pointed out that if the person complaining in the first place does want to start an argument based on the fact that cyclists don't pay road tax, you can simply point out that in fact no one pays road tax.
    there was no offense intended caused or taken.
  • Simon_Rhino
    Simon_Rhino Posts: 66
    'Downhill' - crossed wires; I meant I wouldn't be surprised if our complainer (not anyone on here) raised 'road tax' - I agree with you though, no offence was intended :wink:

    'Homer' - from the complainer's name and somewhat haphazard working knowledge of spelling & grammar, it wouldn't surprise me if English wasn't his first language (although I'm happy to accept it is far better than my ability in any other language) - as such, perhaps another good reason not to copy & paste on here

    'Andy' - I tried, hopefully I'll manage it now.............. :lol:
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Simon, leave it! They ain't worth it!
  • LycraVirgin
    LycraVirgin Posts: 55
    This wont be a popular response and I’m not saying you are guilty of it. However I have witnessed group rides in my area that would wind up any other road user including me (a cyclist). Generally older guys wobbling along in a pack at a slow pace in some weird polygon shape where at some random point along the pack it is filling the whole lane. It does make a safe overtake that little bit more tricky when the idiot wobbling around near the white line is more concerned with continuing his conversation than concentrating on his surroundings. Especially for my mother in a under powered Corsa and not a huge amount of confidence behind the wheel. When she did pass them and I politely suggested 2 abreast would be safer for everyone I was met by a load of jeering. Unfortunately I think their arrogance will end in tears with one of them clipped by a car sooner or later.
  • downhill paul
    downhill paul Posts: 236
    Simon_Rhino wrote:
    'Downhill' - crossed wires; I meant I wouldn't be surprised if our complainer (not anyone on here) raised 'road tax' - I agree with you though, no offence was intended :wink:

    I know you were talking about the guy who complained to you via email, not someone on this forum.
    no offense intended either mate ;-)
  • Manc33
    Manc33 Posts: 2,157
    If there ever was to be a debate about it, the panel should only be comprised of people that drive cars and use bicycles, otherwise there might as well not be any debate. That way no one can be bias.

    On my bike some driver will shake his fist at me because I am "in the way" never realizing I drive a car and when I am driving, cyclists probably never realize I also use a bicycle. You've got to adapt to the situation, which is what some people can't do because "its their right".

    I know society is structured in such a way that we are all supposed to think like robots but we aren't and thus, it can't work. Does this mean there might be times on the road you would need to break the law to stay alive... probably.

    Cycle lanes is a good example of "sticking to it" and probably ending up dead because you did. Not one single cyclist takes them seriously. I am sure they were put there to make cycling more dangerous, under the usual guise of keeping us all safer.
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    Manc33 wrote:
    The other night I was driving and cursing a guy on a bike because he was riding about three feet into the road for no reason. Sometimes cyclists think "Its my right" and just ride there, yes that is annoying because like I said there was no reason at all why he couldn't be 2 feet over to the left.
    Let me get this straight. The guy was cycling 3 feet out from the kerb/gutter and you think he should have been 2 feet to his left, i.e. 1ft from the kerb/gutter. Is that correct?
    Now given that the general rule is that you shouldn't pass without giving at least 1.5m clearance his position meant you had to move out at least 2.5m to overtake as opposed to 1.9m. How wide was the lane? Was there traffic coming the other way? Was that 60cm really the difference between you being able to pass of not?
    Whether it was or not, expecting a cyclist to stay within 1 foot of the side of the road is unreasonable. 3 ft from the kerb sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's probably about where I normally ride.
    Manc33 wrote:
    If there ever was to be a debate about it, the panel should only be comprised of people that drive cars and use bicycles, otherwise there might as well not be any debate. That way no one can be bias.
    I think you miss the point of a debate.
    I agree that those who both ride and drive have a better chance of having a balanced and well informed opinion. However, most cyclists are also drivers and yet I know plenty cyclist+drivers with bad habits and ignorant attitudes too.
    Manc33 wrote:
    ...Cycle lanes is a good example of "sticking to it" and probably ending up dead because you did. Not one single cyclist takes them seriously. I am sure they were put there to make cycling more dangerous, under the usual guise of keeping us all safer.
    Another conspiracy theory?
  • byke68
    byke68 Posts: 1,070
    As a cyclist and a motorist, I can see both sides of this. When driving, I have more issues with other motorist's than with people on bikes. I sometimes wonder if my car is invisible, the amount of motorists who pull out in front of me and see me at the last moment, the ones in too much of a hurry to obey the rules of the road, those who do not know how to use a roundabout etc. As for cyclist's, my main complaint is those without lights and just once, a whole group hogging a wide road but I just waited until it was safe to pass instead of just roaring past as others do.
    Cannondale Trail 6 - crap brakes!
    Cannondale CAAD8
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    Manc33 wrote:
    Surely it can't be a case of either riding two abreast or not when every road is different. The other night I was driving and cursing a guy on a bike because he was riding about three feet into the road for no reason. Sometimes cyclists think "Its my right" and just ride there, yes that is annoying because like I said there was no reason at all why he couldn't be 2 feet over to the left.

    Even as a cyclist myself I understand that if a car gets "held up" by you its bloody annoying. It is when you get some loser saying its his right so he is doing it anyway and to hell with all the variables. It is pretty inconsiderate, unless you're going at the same speed as the traffic then yeah, its the motorists that then become the wankers.

    Its my right to run around in a Superman costume with a traffic cone on my head but I'm not likely to do it.

    2ft from the kerb leaves little to no escape route in the event of a prat behind the wheel coming too close. It also exposes the rider to more risk of picking up road debris and punctures and invariably is where potholes tend to be. The advice is 1 meter from the kerb which is a tiny bit more than the 3ft you're complaining about. I've tried being courteous to knob ends too impatient to wait for a safe passing opportunity, by drawing closer to the kerb only to be nearly wiped out by them. So I don't compromise anymore. Wait for a safe passing opportunity or my fist goes through your side window.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Simon_Rhino wrote:
    as OP, perhaps it would help if I (re)state some of the background to my request:

    The complaint was non-specific with regards to times, dates, roads or who the riders were, instead it was more of a general gripe that 'cyclists' ride all over the road, sometimes 'in the middle of the road' and sometimes 'two abreast' - at no point did he give an example of riders not moving over when traffic was behind etc and his complaint was seemingly directed to us a local cycling club rather than because any of our riders were involved in whatever prompted him to write

    At no point have I (or anyone else) said we wouldn't move over if safe, appropriate & courteous; this appears to be an Aunt Sally thrown in during the subsequent exchanges?

    I'm not in any way clear how my request for info that might be useful to explain to a non-cyclist why cyclists ride in a group can be construed as somehow confrontational or tribal?

    His complaint didn't mention 'road tax', although as I mentioned (and as I'm sure most reading will have had happen to them at some point) it does often seem the first recourse of the irate motorist. My 'apology' was to LeTap73 (not DownHill Paul) who seemed to take offence at the (non) mention of road tax in the reply he got to his complaint and the one I haven't sent to ours?

    The first few responses seemed to get to the heart of things and give links to a very useful article and video clip - thanks to Hebden & Jack (and anyone else who helped)

    not sure I've got anything else to add, but please feel free to turn this into something it never was if it makes you feel better and hopefully Godwin's Law can be invoked before too much further..........

    enjoy your riding

    There you go again dictating what people can say and think - it is no better than Nazi Germany :shock:
  • Vslowpace
    Vslowpace Posts: 189
    Its exactly like Nazi Germany in fact I imagine Simon will be invading Poland before the months out.
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    philthy3 wrote:
    Manc33 wrote:
    Surely it can't be a case of either riding two abreast or not when every road is different. The other night I was driving and cursing a guy on a bike because he was riding about three feet into the road for no reason. Sometimes cyclists think "Its my right" and just ride there, yes that is annoying because like I said there was no reason at all why he couldn't be 2 feet over to the left.....

    2ft from the kerb leaves little to no escape route in the event of a prat behind the wheel coming too close....
    It's even worse than that. Manc33 is suggesting he should have been 1ft from the kerb! (3ft out and then move 2ft to the left) At that distance any wobble is potentially dangerous and the only avoidance or correction actions available if needed are to ride into the ditch or swerve towards the middle of the road.
  • Simon_Rhino
    Simon_Rhino Posts: 66
    ......thought it would help if you could all see how nice and tight we keep our paceline.

    Can't stop to chat, Warsaw awaits......

  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Simon_Rhino wrote:
    ......thought it would help if you could all see how nice and tight we keep our paceline.

    Can't stop to chat, Warsaw awaits......


    I am not convinced that this is what Professor Godwin had in mind
  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    As others have said, maybe worth a look at how you might adapt to be more courteous. There is all sorts of BS coming from self appointed cycling road safety experts (e.g. Cyclecraft nonsense) , who haven't bothered to even skim some of the well established methods and approaches from say advanced driver training. From my advanced motorcycling training days...

    Position according to hazard priority:
    Safety (highest), stability, view, advantage (lowest)

    For any position, ask yourself - is this the safest place to be, does it maximise my distance from hazards and minimise the risk of hazards developing? Does it take me away from all the oil, pot, holes, broken tarmac etc (stability), does it give me a better view of the road, more time to react, improve my chances of being seen etc (view).

    Lastly if its passed the safety, stability, view test - is there any benefit.

    As a vulnerable road user, I'd argue a discourteous position or any position designed to block, encourage or force a road user in a faster, safer stronger vehicle, is not going to pass the first test.

    Any strategy that relies on influencing another to do something isn't a particularly good riding plan.
    Guide to cheap bike lights Turbo Trainer Vids Play list
    Stretching & Workout Vids
  • de_sisti
    de_sisti Posts: 1,283
    mamba80 wrote:
    ^ This +1 .... people have work, appointments to keep
    :roll:

    A common sense approach would be to assume you could be late because there are thousands of other
    people using the roads and therefore give yourself more time for the journey. Simple innit.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    diy wrote:
    As a vulnerable road user, I'd argue a discourteous position or any position designed to block, encourage or force a road user in a faster, safer stronger vehicle, is not going to pass the first test.

    That's all very well for group riding or whatever, but what about situations where the road simply isn't wide enough for someone to pass safely (e.g., when there's a traffic island and you're concerned someone will try and squeeze through)? Do you get off and walk?
  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    There are lots of ways to influence someone without obstructing or blocking them. Shoulder/check lifesaver, acknowledgement that they are there, hand signal. None of which require you to take up a position that puts you in conflict. At the same time - have an escape plan. What will I do if he does try to overtake me? moving out further is not the answer.
    Guide to cheap bike lights Turbo Trainer Vids Play list
    Stretching & Workout Vids
  • Slo Mo Jones
    Slo Mo Jones Posts: 272
    philthy3 wrote:
    So I don't compromise anymore. Wait for a safe passing opportunity or my fist goes through your side window.

    No it doesn't. It never has and never will.
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    Slo Mo Jones wrote:
    philthy3 wrote:
    So I don't compromise anymore. Wait for a safe passing opportunity or my fist goes through your side window.

    No it doesn't. It never has and never will.
    I doubt I could punch through a car window if it was static and I was standing beside it. I know I couldn't do it from a bike. If I could I'm sure I'd end up with a broken hand. And I'm a pretty heavily built guy. Have you ever actually tried breaking a small tempered glass window without a heavy or pointed implement?
    If you intend to break car windows, you might want to ride with a hammer at the ready. But I suggest you don't!

    I've banged on a car window on one or two occasions when a slow moving car had drawn alongside and then forgot I was there and started moving towards the kerb. Other than making a driver aware of your presence in an emergency, what's the point in hitting his vehicle?
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,106
    I've seen someone put their fist through a car window - wouldn't fancy doing it but it is at least possile - this was 20 years plus ago tough maybe glass has changed since then?

    Anyway I'm with Maglia Rosa - anyone that gets wound up by being delayed by cyclists to the extent they write a letter or email of complaint really is the kind of person who needs to find something to do with their life. Like most I also drive a car, quite frequently in the Peak so a popular location for cyclists and can honestly say the aount of times I've been held up by bikes for more than 20 seconds or so is zero - or at least I can't remember it happening. Best tactic is just ignore these people. Yes some groups of cyclists could do with learning how to ride in more of a compact group and at times it is good manners to let vehicles pass by singling out or moving over but if I wrote a letter of complaint for every vehicle driven inconsiderately I'd have written more letters than I have posts on this forum!
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    Slo Mo Jones wrote:
    philthy3 wrote:
    So I don't compromise anymore. Wait for a safe passing opportunity or my fist goes through your side window.

    No it doesn't. It never has and never will.

    Done it in the course of my old job so beg to differ. Might have been a lucky blow or the window not quite closed properly giving more flexibility in the glass, but all I know is the drunk inside refusing to come out, came out.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • chris_bass
    chris_bass Posts: 4,913
    philthy3 wrote:
    Slo Mo Jones wrote:
    philthy3 wrote:
    So I don't compromise anymore. Wait for a safe passing opportunity or my fist goes through your side window.

    No it doesn't. It never has and never will.

    Done it in the course of my old job so beg to differ. Might have been a lucky blow or the window not quite closed properly giving more flexibility in the glass, but all I know is the drunk inside refusing to come out, came out.

    I'm guessing you weren't cycling at the time though.

    On the plus side, sounds like you have a smashing job
    www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes

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