Response to a 'bad riding' complaint

Simon_Rhino

We've had a somewhat rambling e-mail sent to our club complaining about cyclists (not entirely clear if he means from our club or not) riding two-abreast and / or in primary position (or 'taking up a whole lane' as he somewhat dramatically put it). Although simply ignoring him might be the easiest thing to do and giving him both barrels about not being such a plum would be good for the soul, I wondered if anyone has (or has seen) anything that explains in simple terms to non-cyclists why we do what we do when riding as a group (I've had a look through the BC website and can't find anything)

I'm sure I saw a film clip recently that showed how riding two-abreast meant passing cars had to spend less time on the wrong side of the road, but suspect his might only confirm his belief that bikes are some way inherently incompatible with roads (which seems to be the gist of his complaint)

any ideas?

cheers

HebdenBiker

There's Carlton Reid's article here http://www.motoring.co.uk/car-news/cyclists-why-do-they-ride-in-the-middle-of-the-road-_62617.

However, I suspect that nothing you say, write or link to will change the mind of this crank. Best ignored.

Simon_Rhino

thanks - that looks just the ticket..............although I won't be surprised if we get a reply involving our non-payment of 'road tax' etc etc etc

ugo.santalucia

In which case remind him that road tax is currently based on emissions and you have lower emissions than some cars that are exempt from road tax. Also, reassure him that if road tax becomes a tax on road use, based on hours or mileage, you'll be first in line to pay your share...

Simon_Rhino

don't worry, I'll be on well-trodden ground on a 'road tax' argument, but could only find 'how to' info / advice re group riding for cyclists rather than anything useful to try and explain the 'why' to drivers

anything else will still be appreciated ahead of sending response...........

downhill paul

If he wants to create an argument about cyclists not paying road tax, tell the idiot in question that no one pays road tax anymore. road tax was abolished in 1937. roads are paid for through general taxation. the piece of paper that used to be on display in the bottom corner of your windscreen is vehicle excise duty, which is a tax based on the emissions produced by whatever vehicle you are in. bikes don't produce any emissions that harm the planet, so you don't have to pay for them. also if there was still such a thing as road tax, don't people understand that most cyclists also drive cars, so they will pay tax in one way or another.

JackPozzi

This is quite good for the 2 abreast issue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJiixtKuVq8

Simon_Rhino

Jack - that was the clip I'd seen; thanks for the link

Paul - in fairness, there was no mention of 'road tax' in his complaint. I admire your optimism that people who shout 'road tax' would listen to reason (or understand what a hypothecated tax is) and I've found mentioning that it was abolished by Winston Churchill (in 1926?) only makes them think I've gone mad.

thanks for your responses, hopefully our 'friend' will take on board what he's sent

cheers

downhill paul

I understand Simon. in my experience comments about road tax sometimes fall on deaf ears. when people think they are right they refuse to back down, even when proved wrong. more to the point people don't take too kindly to being told they have done something wrong. I once shouted at a guy for using his phone while driving after he nearly hit me. his response was I don't pay road tax so I have no say on what happens on the road. that doesn't make it right if someone wishes to use their phone or do something else they shouldn't be doing.

letap73

I have actually made a complaint against a group of cyclists because believe it or not I actually thought they were riding in an inconsiderate fashion which could have led to a potentially hazardous circumstance. I don't think I would have appreciated a facetious response referencing road tax or the such.

Simon_Rhino

I apologise profusely for the response you didn't get to your complaint and I haven't made to 'my complainer' mentioning 'road tax'

thanks for reading

e17blade

HebdenBiker wrote:

There's Carlton Reid's article here http://www.motoring.co.uk/car-news/cyclists-why-do-they-ride-in-the-middle-of-the-road-_62617.

However, I suspect that nothing you say, write or link to will change the mind of this crank. Best ignored.

Good link - cheers - I'm storing that for future use!

ben@31

Simon,

How about politely inviting him to try a cycle with you lot, so he will see things from both sides and experiences what its like to be a cyclist and why we sometimes act the way we do. In my experiences cycling further out in the the road can be because of a poor road surface close to the curb thats broken up and full of potholes. One place near me, the surface of a cycle lane is so terrible, its better to use the road rather than the cycle lane.

After I've got into cycling, its certainly changed the way I drive when I see a cyclist in front.

phreak

Why not just be considerate? If I'm out with anyone else you ride two abreast unless there's anyone behind you and then fall into single file, usually signalling to the motorist when/if it's safe to pass.

I'm not sure that all cyclists do this. Indeed, on Sunday I came across quite a few who were chatting away to their buddy, taking up the lane so that even a fellow cyclist can't get past them (down windy country lanes).

Of course they weren't doing anything illegal, but I'm not sure they were being very considerate of other road users either.

It's so very easy to get defensive and tribal on these kind of things, when I think a bit more give and take from both sides could help matters considerably.

letap73

phreak wrote:

Why not just be considerate? If I'm out with anyone else you ride two abreast unless there's anyone behind you and then fall into single file, usually signalling to the motorist when/if it's safe to pass.

I'm not sure that all cyclists do this. Indeed, on Sunday I came across quite a few who were chatting away to their buddy, taking up the lane so that even a fellow cyclist can't get past them (down windy country lanes).

Of course they weren't doing anything illegal, but I'm not sure they were being very considerate of other road users either.

It's so very easy to get defensive and tribal on these kind of things, when I think a bit more give and take from both sides could help matters considerably.

+1 Couldn't put it better myself.

mamba80

^ This +1 .... Regardless of the law, we need to realise that groups of cyclists are a pia to car drivers on busy or narrow roads, people have work, appointments to keep and the longer the driver is kept behind, the more likely he or she will do some stupid overtaking manoeuvre, endangering everyone, so a win win really.
a little consideration goes a long way, as does a wave to a driver who has waited until it is safe to over take, always help to keep them on side.

bsharp77

Great couple of last posts - consideration is the big word here.

I tend to go out at the weekends as early as possible to minimise traffic, but on tight roads if I hear a car approaching, ill do my best to find a lay by to slightly pull over an wave them past - it only costs a few seconds.

I often meet large groups riding not only 2 abreast, but with far too many in one group making it maddening for any driver to get past - I get angry looking at them....and I'm on a bike on the other side of the road! (of course I'm not suggesting this has anything to do with the OP's club, but just pointing out in general, there seem to be a heck of a lot of groups - whether they are official clubs or not, who have very little consideration for anyone else on the road).

We all have a responsibility on the road to be accommodating of other road users....no matter what type of vehicle we may be using at the time.

downhill paul

Simon_Rhino wrote:

I apologise profusely for the response you didn't get to your complaint and I haven't made to 'my complainer' mentioning 'road tax'

thanks for reading

I wasn't complaining that I didn't get any response to the complaint I didn't make which you then didn't pass on to your complainer. I was simply making a point that if such a motorist who wishes to make a complaint about a group of cyclists decides to argue that he pays road tax and cyclists don't, you can simply point out that no one pays road tax. which is true, as anyone who is prepared to do a little digging online will know.

Bozman

There'll be a major incident soon involving a large group of cyclists and a vehicle. It does amaze me how some packs spread themselves across a road while others seem to ride in a tight group no wider than two a breast, the "others" generally seem to be the fast group.
You get a - we own the road attitude, pure ignorance, all topped off with a lack of road craft. Could this be partly down to the massive influx of new cyclists, do the clubs need to take a little more responsibility.

Anonymous

Everyone just keep doing what you are doing. A lot of the people who complain about cyclists are the same people who complain about people walking too slowly side by side on the pavement or getting in their way in the supermarket. They are just ignorant @rseholes who just have no tolerance for other people. It will fall on deaf ears as usual. Cycling is here to stay and no matter how much the anti cycling brigade shout,piss or moan they will never get their way because no MP or council is ever going to commit career suicide by banning or restricting our use of the highway without giving us a reasonable alternative.

Not every road is cycling friendly and personal judgement should always be taken on any road. Yes you may have a right ti cycle on a twisty badly designed road but if you are willing to argue with a 2 tonne steel object then go ahead. Its best just to stay safe , legal and resist confrontation. That way they have less ammunition against us for their petty selfish complaints

Manc33

Road Tax was abolished in 1937 but was replaced with another tax. So in the real world nothing got abolished.

Saying it was "abolished" makes it sound like the tax was scrapped, which is absolutely not the case considering the rate this tax has increased over the years, particularly recent decades.

What has been abolished is discernment and integrity. :roll:

People are more concerned with "catching people out" than anything else. Saying "Haha that was abolished you're wrong" is missing the point - we are all paying through the nose now more than ever before.

It wasn't abolished, it was increased! Do they really only have to change the name of something to dupe everyone? Yes! :shock:

phreak

Maglia Rosa wrote:

Everyone just keep doing what you are doing. A lot of the people who complain about cyclists are the same people who complain about people walking too slowly side by side on the pavement or getting in their way in the supermarket. They are just ignorant @rseholes who just have no tolerance for other people. It will fall on deaf ears as usual. Cycling is here to stay and no matter how much the anti cycling brigade shout,wee-wee or moan they will never get their way because no MP or council is ever going to commit career suicide by banning or restricting our use of the highway without giving us a reasonable alternative.

Not every road is cycling friendly and personal judgement should always be taken on any road. Yes you may have a right ti cycle on a twisty badly designed road but if you are willing to argue with a 2 tonne steel object then go ahead. Its best just to stay safe , legal and resist confrontation. That way they have less ammunition against us for their petty selfish complaints

That's the kind of 'them vs us' approach that I don't think is at all constructive. Whether it's cyclists, motorists, horse riders or whomever, it doesn't take much to show a bit of consideration and get along with one another.

Just because you get the (rare) motorist that behaves badly doesn't mean we should act in kind.

Bozman

Maglia Rosa wrote:

Everyone just keep doing what you are doing. A lot of the people who complain about cyclists are the same people who complain about people walking too slowly side by side on the pavement or getting in their way in the supermarket. They are just ignorant @rseholes who just have no tolerance for other people. It will fall on deaf ears as usual. Cycling is here to stay and no matter how much the anti cycling brigade shout,wee-wee or moan they will never get their way because no MP or council is ever going to commit career suicide by banning or restricting our use of the highway without giving us a reasonable alternative.

Not every road is cycling friendly and personal judgement should always be taken on any road. Yes you may have a right ti cycle on a twisty badly designed road but if you are willing to argue with a 2 tonne steel object then go ahead. Its best just to stay safe , legal and resist confrontation. That way they have less ammunition against us for their petty selfish complaints

And this attitude is why cycling is getting a bad press.. Them and us.

StillGoing

Manc33 wrote:

Road Tax was abolished in 1937 but was replaced with another tax. So in the real world nothing got abolished.

Saying it was "abolished" makes it sound like the tax was scrapped, which is absolutely not the case considering the rate this tax has increased over the years, particularly recent decades.

What has been abolished is discernment and integrity. :roll:

People are more concerned with "catching people out" than anything else. Saying "Haha that was abolished you're wrong" is missing the point - we are all paying through the nose now more than ever before.

It wasn't abolished, it was increased! Do they really only have to change the name of something to dupe everyone? Yes! :shock:

Of course it was abolished. It no longer exists as a tax paid only by motorists using the roads. Instead everybody that pays tax will contribute in some way. So if the arsehole complainer loses their vehicle and licence to drive, they will still be paying a contribution towards the upkeep of the highways.

I wish I could lay my hands on the old OSPRE books we used to get when studying for Sergeants and Inspectors exams in the police as there was a section in there that listed, in priority, who had access to the roads. Sadly for the motorist, they were way down the list and behind cyclists, horses cattle and pedestrians.

ddraver

I think MR makes a reasonable point here, its just lost in his usual pomp and bluster...

The guy in question is unlikely to read the response let alone watch the videos linked to - frankly, if he was going to now, he would have done so already - he just wanted a rant at someone he viewed as unlikely to hit back. There is nothing anyone can realistically do about these people, other than know that they re unlikely to be very happy people.

On the second point, I'm sure that there are roads all of us do not use, even if they re just unpleasant rather than dangerous,

Simon_Rhino

as OP, perhaps it would help if I (re)state some of the background to my request:

The complaint was non-specific with regards to times, dates, roads or who the riders were, instead it was more of a general gripe that 'cyclists' ride all over the road, sometimes 'in the middle of the road' and sometimes 'two abreast' - at no point did he give an example of riders not moving over when traffic was behind etc and his complaint was seemingly directed to us a local cycling club rather than because any of our riders were involved in whatever prompted him to write

At no point have I (or anyone else) said we wouldn't move over if safe, appropriate & courteous; this appears to be an Aunt Sally thrown in during the subsequent exchanges?

I'm not in any way clear how my request for info that might be useful to explain to a non-cyclist why cyclists ride in a group can be construed as somehow confrontational or tribal?

His complaint didn't mention 'road tax', although as I mentioned (and as I'm sure most reading will have had happen to them at some point) it does often seem the first recourse of the irate motorist. My 'apology' was to LeTap73 (not DownHill Paul) who seemed to take offence at the (non) mention of road tax in the reply he got to his complaint and the one I haven't sent to ours?

The first few responses seemed to get to the heart of things and give links to a very useful article and video clip - thanks to Hebden & Jack (and anyone else who helped)

not sure I've got anything else to add, but please feel free to turn this into something it never was if it makes you feel better and hopefully Godwin's Law can be invoked before too much further..........

enjoy your riding

Manc33

Surely it can't be a case of either riding two abreast or not when every road is different. The other night I was driving and cursing a guy on a bike because he was riding about three feet into the road for no reason. Sometimes cyclists think "Its my right" and just ride there, yes that is annoying because like I said there was no reason at all why he couldn't be 2 feet over to the left.

Even as a cyclist myself I understand that if a car gets "held up" by you its bloody annoying. It is when you get some loser saying its his right so he is doing it anyway and to hell with all the variables. It is pretty inconsiderate, unless you're going at the same speed as the traffic then yeah, its the motorists that then become the wankers.

Its my right to run around in a Superman costume with a traffic cone on my head but I'm not likely to do it.

keef66

Manc33 wrote:

Its my right to run around in a Superman costume with a traffic cone on my head but I'm not likely to do it.

You sure about that?? That's just the kind of thing I can imagine you'd have a go at. Neither would be the right size for you, so you'd have to attempt some bizarre modification obviously...

cougie

Just a thought - but sometimes it looks like a club is all over the road when actually they're all riding 2 up and its the contours of the road making it look like they're all over the carriageway.

ex-pat scot

In my experience, club rides generally are the best disciplined for pack discipline.

In my time (*), newcomers quickly got an earful for not conforming to the double-pace-line club run road discipline, and the calling out of cars, thinning out, waving cars through etc.




(*) OK that might have been before the age of STIs and clipless pedals...

me-109

cyd190468 wrote:

...over here we ride two abreast because the law requires it.

What happens if you want to go out alone? Aren't you allowed? If you are and you catch someone up, do you have to slow down and chat, now that there are two of you on the same piece of road? :P