Smacking children!

joelsim

Veronese68 wrote:

I think I smacked my son once, he was quite young and ran into the road in spite of my yelling at him to stop. I shouted at him and gave him a smack. Not particularly rational but my thinking wasn't particularly rational at that point. Otherwise I never felt the need to smack the kids. Just telling them off and if necessary taking something away or not allowing something would do the job. The naughty step works, stop them doing what they want to for a short time. Being consistent is the most important thing with kids. If you say no to something you cannot change your mind later. If you do they will sense weakness and expect you to change your mind the next time you say no.
I do beat my son from time to time nowadays, but he is a fair bit bigger than me now so I have to be more careful and plan my escape.

You see in this instance a smack will probably have an effect. Obviously if you smack them all the time then it won't. I agree with this smack Veronese68, quite right.

I've probably smacked my kids 2 or 3 times each in their lives, and never enough to hurt them.

You know if you show your kids love all the time, bad behaviour happens very infrequently.

slowbike

bompington wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

We ran a points system for our niece & nephew when they came to stay with us - really simple - just a white board with a list of jobs & reward points they could earn and a "telling off -1 points" "naughty step -5 points". Then there was a list of treats they could buy with their points - from little things like "going to the park 10 points" to "swimming 30 points" and "day out at monkey world 60 points". On top of that we tallied up their points on the board and had little paper notes in a plastic wallet (thanks Wiggle!) with the points on so they could count them.

Did this work when they were aged two to three?

They were 5 & 6 at the time and we didn't see them often enough.

I'll admit that it's not an easy thing to keep going - it's quite a bit of work - but ultimately I think it's worth the effort.

I can't comment too much on smacking as I'm not constantly involved in discipline - but I can see why some parents do as a last resort. Even our N&N's can be pretty testing at times ...

The only thing that annoys me is the constant "No" and "Stop it" that you seem to get from some parents - everything the child does is "wrong" - they just want to play and have fun - either let them run or get involved, they (usually) just want attention ...

lancew

I feel regarding my above points I didn't actually point out that I think my parents are awesome.

I will be riding to Paris with my Dad in July for his 60th and my Mum is being the support car. I speak to them most days (at 27) and consider them both to be friends as well as family.

I think that as with lots of sensible posts above the most important thing with kids is to be consistent, fair and kind is most important thing. I am very impressed with Mamba80 for taking his daughter home after misbehaving, and I think that is the perfect example. In the same way that Pblankeney learnt that the threat was real and after that it didn't need to be re-demonstrated.

I'm not advocating beating children. Ever.

DeVlaeminck

My father in law is quite a big bloke, former nightclub doorman in Derbyshire mining towns and former agricultural labourer. He tells a story of when he was 15 his dad taking him out into the garden and having a proper fight over some issue or other - his dad had done a bit of amateur boxing and though my father in law had left school at 14 and been working on a farm for some time so wasn't a soft youth he got a good beating. In his words he deserved it and it made him respect his father much more.

I just think it's difficult to make universal statements about these things. Would I advocate giving a teenage son a good pasting - no - but in this case it seems to have worked.

pblakeney

meanredspider wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

What do you do when all alternative punishments have failed?

They never did. We were calm, clear and consistent from when the kids were young. They learned where the boundaries were. You have to put the thought and effort in like most things in life, I suppose. Honestly, I'm probably not the best person to ask - I just never had any issues with my kids who are now 15, 17 & 19.

My sister tried all the alternatives but children push the boundaries, some more than others.
She resisted as much as she could and put in a lot of thought and effort but was pushed too far once too often.

Once the naughty step, the withdrawal of treats and/or privileges, reasoned debate, and a right good rollicking have failed what is the next step?
Just curious, although I won't be in the position at this stage of life.

GGBiker

When I was in primary school the leather strap was still in use although there were limits to what teachers would do with it (late 1980s), limited to use on the palm. I remember a friend was messing about and the teacher brought him to the front and gave him a slap with it, he sniggered and got hit again harder, this escalated with him laughing at every blow. The teacher got exasperated and called the headmaster who gave him a good whack, my friend was having none of it and laughed at them again, they just gave up in the end.

I'm sure 10 years earlier a headmaster would have doled out a brutal beating but that was no longer acceptable.

I can't see how anyone can hit a child and not feel like a pathetic and weak individual, there are plenty of other options which teach a valuable lesson in life (removal of privileges teaches that actions have consequences).

Daz555

After noticing that there is no correlation between a kid's behaviour and whether they are smacked or not I decided I would never hit my children.

It's all about consistency in my view and expecting high standards of behaviour from the off. You can't ignore the genetic component though - some kids will be tougher to raise no matter what you do. My son is well behaved but it takes a bit of effort to keep him on the right path. My daughter though - she could raise herself.

bondurant

Do you mean anecdotally, on the correlation thing you mention above? Or did you see some sort of study?

+1 on your second paragraph...

Frank the tank

In 2010 a teacher at a school in Mansfield beat a pupil around the head with a 3kg dumbbell.

A mate of mine told his children all teachers had one in their desk draw.

Daz555

Bondurant wrote:

Do you mean anecdotally, on the correlation thing you mention above? Or did you see some sort of study?.

I meant in terms of parents I've known over the years and the behaviour of their kids - anecdotally.

saprkzz

I used to get a smacked bum by my parents, it made me scared of getting in trouble.. Used to be terrified of the "wait until we get home" comment... Used to draw us into line! The respect and discipline is totally different now. Kids have no respect for others especially the law.

Even now, I would be shaking if a police officer had to have words with me.. I respect all adults even though I am one, respect has gone to the pits.. Not saying it's to do with smacking or not, but society has gone soft.

Pituophis

The best advice I was given was to travel far from home and smack other peoples children.
That way you don't have to worry about any untowards psychological damage they may exhibit later in life.

meanredspider

PBlakeney wrote:

Once the naughty step, the withdrawal of treats and/or privileges, reasoned debate, and a right good rollicking have failed what is the next step?
Just curious, although I won't be in the position at this stage of life.

I think that, if you've done it right, they don't fail.

I've never had discipline issues at home nor at work (I've managed people from my very first job) nor have I when I've looked after other people's kids. I've never shouted in any of those scenarios. I was smacked as a kid - I thought it was stupid. My grandfather was caned (often) as a kid (he spent the first 12 years of his life in an orphanage) yet he never shouted at us or smacked us.

Manc33

If you smack children, they grow up as an adult thinking it is normal.

I never got smacked because I pretty much always behaved myself. :oops:

pblakeney

meanredspider wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Once the naughty step, the withdrawal of treats and/or privileges, reasoned debate, and a right good rollicking have failed what is the next step?
Just curious, although I won't be in the position at this stage of life.

I think that, if you've done it right, they don't fail.

I will pass the message on to my sister. I am sure that she will be impressed. :roll:

meanredspider

PBlakeney wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Once the naughty step, the withdrawal of treats and/or privileges, reasoned debate, and a right good rollicking have failed what is the next step?
Just curious, although I won't be in the position at this stage of life.

I think that, if you've done it right, they don't fail.

I will pass the message on to my sister. I am sure that she will be impressed. :roll:

No-one likes to be told that they've failed. But I'm not sure why, if all those other things haven't worked, you'd think that smacking will? To me, it's a bit like having your jaw wired shut because you're too fat. The things that should have worked didn't so now you're resorting to extremes.

Why do you think those other sanctions have failed?

meanredspider

The logical extension to some of this thinking takes us to where ISIS is. More than one speeding ticket? Public flogging for you. A second parking ticket? Lop one of your hands off. After all, those other sanctions have failed....

pblakeney

meanredspider wrote:

No-one likes to be told that they've failed. But I'm not sure why, if all those other things haven't worked, you'd think that smacking will?

It did work. His behaviour changed for the better and she didn't have to do it again.

meanredspider wrote:

Why do you think those other sanctions have failed?

Because he was a naughty boy that didn't care about the other sanctions. Winding his Mum up was more fun. Also, I witnessed him resorting to violence on her whilst she was the epitome of restraint. That one smack stopped that, and before you ask, she wasn't retaliating. He told her where to go in an impolite manner to bring on the smack*.

Some on here will be able to live their lives without resorting to a smack, and I wholeheartedly agree with that stance, but it simply will not work with all children. And you cannot judge looking after others either as our grand children are little angels with us but can be little sh!ts the minute a parent walks in the house. People do not credit children enough for how much they can manipulate people.

*In my opinion a gentle smack does not necessarily equate to violence. I see children hitting each other much harder when play fighting than most parents *smack*.

pblakeney

meanredspider wrote:

The logical extension to some of this thinking takes us to where ISIS is. More than one speeding ticket? Public flogging for you. A second parking ticket? Lop one of your hands off. After all, those other sanctions have failed....

4 speeding tickets and you lose your license. The current sanctions do ramp up.

meanredspider

I think the point is that the kids should have learned the boundaries before they're at an age where they become manipulating little sh!ts. By that point you've lost it. There's a clue in the yelling bit too.

Smacking is violence - how can it not be? If I walked into a pub and gave someone a "gentle smack" I'd be opening myself up to a charge of assault. And claiming that boxers do worse to each other wouldn't be a great defence.

PBlakeney wrote:

4 speeding tickets and you lose your license. The current sanctions do ramp up.

Of course they do. But, if 4 tickets doesn't work, we don't resort to violence to make our point. I'm sure, like your nephew, it might (might) discourage a few people - that doesn't justify it.

pblakeney

meanredspider wrote:

Smacking is violence - how can it not be? If I walked into a pub and gave someone a "gentle smack" I'd be opening myself up to a charge of assault. And claiming that boxers do worse to each other wouldn't be a great defence.

Have you seen American footballers give each other a pat?
That is my definition of a gentle smack. Is that violence?

We will clearly never agree on this. My main point was that a hollow threat is no threat at all and "or else" sometimes just doesn't cut it.

meanredspider

PBlakeney wrote:

We will clearly never agree on this. My main point was that a hollow threat is no threat at all and "or else" sometimes just doesn't cut it.

I can agree with both of those. I don't think we'll agree on the smacking piece (I should add that my wife is a guidance teacher - deals with child abuse of all sorts all the time - she has very clear views on this) but I do absolutely agree that hollow threats and inconsistency is key. I take my belief a step further to say that, if you get those two right, smacking simply isn't necessary. But we'll agree to disagree.

mamba80

Obviously i dont agree with smacking but i also realise that, in an inperfect world, then with an older child who has pushed the boundaries, having the shock of being hit, by a loved one, this just might be the thing that sways that child onto a less destructive path.
Looks like for your sister, maybe they both learnt something from the experince?

pblakeney

mamba80 wrote:

Looks like for your sister, maybe they both learnt something from the experince?

He certainly did. For her possibly that she could have done it earlier and saved years of anguish. Maybe.
When I look at the other (what are now) teenagers it is quite possibly a case of - A stitch in time.

It worked out well in this case. That is not always the case, in both directions.

apreading

What I see here is just about everyone agreeing that you teach children by punishment when doing something wrong but just not in agreement on whether that punishment should be restricted to mental suffering only (denial of basic priviledges, sitting on the naughty step etc) or whether physical suffering from a smack should also be allowed.

Both are suffering for the child and I am not convinced one is unequivocally worse or better than the other. In fact it is possible that if mental punishment is not working, it can actually cause more suffering as you have to increase the level of suffering to try and make it effective where you might achieve the same outcome from a relatively small amount of physical pain from smacking, or even just the threat of physical pain.

All animals use physical pain to learn what they should/should not do - we learn our limits whenl mountain biking far better from falling off or crashing into a tree than by reading about right technique on the internet. Its basic animal instinct and very natural. Saw a programme on TV about dogs the other day and how puppy siblings playfight to learn the rules of the pack and how to survive.

I am not saying smacking is good and if it can be avoided then so much the better but I dont think anyone should be feeling high and mighty saying you should punish them some other way when that way can cause mental suffering instead - that could arguable be worse...

DeVlaeminck

meanredspider wrote:

Smacking is violence - how can it not be? If I walked into a pub and gave someone a "gentle smack" I'd be opening myself up to a charge of assault. And claiming that boxers do worse to each other wouldn't be a great defence.

Yes smacking is violence but sending a child to their room is solitary confinement and extra chores is hard labour. It's a question of degree isn't it. I'm not convinced a light smack is more cruel or more harmful than some other punishments - we are talking about a smack that doesn't hurt. I know there is an argument it teaches kids that it is OK to resort to violence - but is it OK to teach them to imprison people or humiliate them by making them sit on a "naughty step" ?

Manc33

You mean like incessantly banging on about how you must pass all your exams? That is I think the biggest mental abuse there is growing up.

Then you leave school and not one single thing learned there applies in the real world, apart from maybe some stuff you learnt in primary school in your first few years, like how to read.

School is pretty ridiculous how they just slap books in front of kids and thats it. If you can memorize every damn thing, well done, you'll probably pass exams (although this has nothing to do with actual intelligence as savants clearly show us).

What if you don't want to read books all day? Who does at that age Jesus. No one asks the kids what they want to do. We think we know what's best for them without even asking them but then we would think that.

I remember going to air shows as a kid and having my hands over my ears just about the whole time, hating the noise. My dad probably assumed I was enjoying it.

bondurant

I have no schooling in nuclear physics but luckily I just picked it up on the job

Manc33

Nuclear physics is being done in schools? Maybe the kids are plotting on smacking everyone back.

meanredspider

Manc33 wrote:

You mean like incessantly banging on about how you must pass all your exams? That is I think the biggest mental abuse there is growing up.

Then you leave school and not one single thing learned there applies in the real world, apart from maybe some stuff you learnt in primary school in your first few years, like how to read.

School is pretty ridiculous how they just slap books in front of kids and thats it. If you can memorize every damn thing, well done, you'll probably pass exams (although this has nothing to do with actual intelligence as savants clearly show us).

What if you don't want to read books all day? Who does at that age Jesus. No one asks the kids what they want to do. We think we know what's best for them without even asking them but then we would think that.

I remember going to air shows as a kid and having my hands over my ears just about the whole time, hating the noise. My dad probably assumed I was enjoying it.

More utter rubbish. If you learned nothing in school then you're unlikely to use it. I use what I learned in school every day. Maybe if you'd learned more in school you'd have learned to differentiate fact from YouTube tosh! :roll: