What should the West do about ISIS ?

mamba80

Having always been a staunch critic of the 2nd Iraq war, I am starting to accept that we cannot idly stand by and let ISIL carryon their murderous ways, they are reeking havoc across Syria and Northern Iraq, should they somehow gain their own state, then god alone knows what could happen.
Has the time come for more direct action against them, either through direct support for the Kurds or even arming Assad? More support for an Arab solution to this? though how we could ever get Iranian Saudi co op I don't know.

Whether it is right to do so or not, I don't believe it is possible for an invasion by US/NATO, though should the 2 remaining western hostages suffer the same fate or worse (one is rumoured to be a woman) as the poor Jordanian, maybe that ll change.

Wunnunda

IMO 'we' (that is the West) can do very little without creating an even bigger mess. We're seen (with justification) as meddlers in somewhere we don't understand and where we're not wanted.

The problem is there are no palatable (if that's the right word) or viable leaders in the region. If Saudi and Iran could get something together (and they are the only players with the clout IMO) then there may be something the West can help with but the truth is they can't stand each other and the West - and the US in particular - really doesn't know which they want to be friends with most, the Saudi's for the oil or the Iranians for wider reasons of regional security.

Sadly I suspect this all going to get worse before it gets better. Sometimes factions just have to grind themselves down to a point of exhaustion, and this looks like one of those situations...

pblakeney

Unless Syria or Iraq ask us to intervene I cannot see what we could do without inflaming things further.
The Countries directly affected have to control this situation. That means dealing with it themselves, or publicly asking for help to do so.

markhewitt1978

It's the problem that this mess has largely come about as a result of the 2nd Iraq War, but the reason we won't do anything about it is because of memories of the Iraq War.

However the approach of the West is reasonable in that we'll give you air power and weapons but no troops, but it seems local powers aren't prepared to get involved either.

RideOnTime

Is ISIS, just Islamic State stuttering?

slowmart

Follow the money and chop the head off the snake.

Saudi, Qatar & Kuwait.

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/11/14/how- ... 82607.html

The Syrian government, The Iranian Republican Guard and Hamas are fighting ISIS as well, fancy aligning with this little club?


If your a manc you have to ask yourself why get involved when your enemies are tearing each other to pieces and into the ground…….external influences behind the fighting, atrocities and misery for regional security at home…..

bianchimoon

I think our middle east peace envoy should go and meet them personally and discuss it face to face!

rick_chasey

RideOnTime wrote:

Is ISIS, just Islamic State stuttering?

No and that's a very weak joke.

--

Curious why people aren't saying the same as the OP about Boko Haram, who are, if it's even worth trying to compare bad with bad, probably worse.

pblakeney

bianchimoon wrote:

I think our middle east peace envoy should go and meet them personally and discuss it face to face!

:P
Just what on earth does he do? :?
Apart from collect cash. Obviously.

There must have been a lot of Middle East issues to be sorted out in the 5-star resort in Davos the other week. :evil:

finchy

Rick Chasey wrote:

Curious why people aren't saying the same as the OP about Boko Haram, who are, if it's even worth trying to compare bad with bad, probably worse.

Probably a harder nut to crack and with less potential for the conflict to really become international. Plus a relative lack of awareness. Do Boko Haram do youtube vids?

mamba80

johnfinch wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Curious why people aren't saying the same as the OP about Boko Haram, who are, if it's even worth trying to compare bad with bad, probably worse.

Probably a harder nut to crack and with less potential for the conflict to really become international. Plus a relative lack of awareness. Do Boko Haram do youtube vids?

As terrible as Boko Haram are, they don't pose the risk of global conflict like ISIS/Middle East could, Russia China backing Syria, the US backing Israel and the wests key to its continuing industrial might and reliance on oil, Saudi.
Plus ISIS could inspire attacks on the west that would Charlie seem tame by comparison.

I disagree in sending our middle east peace envoy alone though, he should be accompanied by his long term friend George bush too.

pblakeney

Rick Chasey wrote:

Curious why people aren't saying the same as the OP about Boko Haram, who are, if it's even worth trying to compare bad with bad, probably worse.

My previous answer applies.

PBlakeney wrote:

.......
The Countries directly affected have to control this situation. That means dealing with it themselves, or publicly asking for help to do so.

The main difference is that they are not attacking us directly so are less of a concern to personal safety. I guess that makes us selfish but I doubt many of us are unaware of the situation.

rick_chasey

johnfinch wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Curious why people aren't saying the same as the OP about Boko Haram, who are, if it's even worth trying to compare bad with bad, probably worse.

Probably a harder nut to crack and with less potential for the conflict to really become international. Plus a relative lack of awareness. Do Boko Haram do youtube vids?

They do.

I happen to sit next to a TV that is set to Al jazeera news (best of the non-finance 24hr news btw - if you have a strong stomach anyway) and they report on them a lot.

Boko haram literally go around northern Nigeria and raze entire towns & their inhabitants.

finchy

Given the way in which the West is conducting its military activities against ISIS, I do wonder whether the same tactics would work against Boko Haram. Bombing their positions and equipment is all well and good, but would the Nigerian military actually be able to do anything against Boko Haram even with Western aerial support?

I think we all know, however, that African lives don't always count for much, which is why 12 people being murdered in Paris gets about 100x more coverage than 2,000 people being murdered in Nigeria the following day.

rick_chasey

johnfinch wrote:

Given the way in which the West is conducting its military activities against ISIS, I do wonder whether the same tactics would work against Boko Haram. Bombing their positions and equipment is all well and good, but would the Nigerian military actually be able to do anything against Boko Haram even with Western aerial support?

I think we all know, however, that African lives don't always count for much, which is why 12 people being murdered in Paris gets about 100x more coverage than 2,000 people being murdered in Nigeria the following day.

Rather like ISIS, the issues with the Nigerian military is very difficult.

To be honest, the main reason I understand that the UK and US are involved in Iraq against ISIS is a feeling that they are responsible as a result of the previous decade of intervention.

ISIS rose out of a power vacuum left by Western forces.

Western messing in Nigeria is over a generation ago.

There are so many places where it can be argued to get involved- Ukraine, Nigeria, Chad, Myanmar, Syria, all sorts.

Can't do them all - even if you're Team America world police.

finchy

I think another factor is fear of unintended consequences and the risk of backing a side that turns out to be fairly awful themselves. I can well imagine that the Muslim population of Nigeria would face some sort of collective punishment if Boko Haram get wiped out.

ben@31

PBlakeney wrote:

The Countries directly affected have to control this situation. That means dealing with it themselves,
The main difference is that they are not attacking us directly so are less of a concern to personal safety. I guess that makes us selfish but I doubt many of us are unaware of the situation.

Bingo, nail on the head.

Looking out the window, there is no pick up trucks outside with 10 baddies sat in the back wearing a dishdash and armed with AK47's and RPG's.
This problem is elsewhere.
SO forget about them and let them shoot each other up. I'm guessing our politicians main (if not only) concern is the middle east oil supply.

mr_goo

ben@31 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

The Countries directly affected have to control this situation. That means dealing with it themselves,
The main difference is that they are not attacking us directly so are less of a concern to personal safety. I guess that makes us selfish but I doubt many of us are unaware of the situation.

Bingo, nail on the head.

Looking out the window, there is no pick up trucks outside with 10 baddies sat in the back wearing a dishdash and armed with AK47's and RPG's.
This problem is elsewhere.
SO forget about them and let them shoot each other up. I'm guessing our politicians main (if not only) concern is the middle east oil supply.

This would be the only reason. I even believe Camoron even mentioned last week that the main reason UK has a relationship with that barbaric state Saudi is only for oil.

pblakeney

Mr Goo wrote:

I even believe Camoron even mentioned last week that the main reason UK has a relationship with that barbaric state Saudi is only for oil.

Hands up anyone surprised at this.
Now use that hand to slap your face.

VTech

I find it odd how people always refer to the middle east problems and then about following the money and there you will find the threat.
It is very rare to have the discussion about Isreal and their conflicts.
People refer to Qatar, Saudi etc but that little strip of land off the Mediteranian sea is where a lot of these problems come from.
Im not saying who is right or wrong here, I'm just pointing to the trigger of the gun we are all concerned about.

thegreatdivide

VTech wrote:

I find it odd how people always refer to the middle east problems and then about following the money and there you will find the threat.
It is very rare to have the discussion about Isreal and their conflicts.
People refer to Qatar, Saudi etc but that little strip of land off the Mediteranian sea is where a lot of these problems come from.
Im not saying who is right or wrong here, I'm just pointing to the trigger of the gun we are all concerned about.

So you've still not watched Bitter Lake then?

I'm sorry that one of your client countries is being call out here but Saudi Arabia IS the key to this ISIS mess.

Israel, while undeniably being a huge contributor to the Middle East problem is not the cause of ISIS and these nut jobs.

ballysmate

It's getting closer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... reads.html

And yes, I know it's the Mail.

joelsim

I say round all the fundamentalists up and put them all on a desert island with no hope of escape. Then let them all fight their pathetic wars with each other and leave the majority of the world's population to live in harmony.

By all I mean that includes the likes of ISIS and Boko, but also BNP members, Israel and the American Senate and anyone else who is intolerant.

Job done. All intolerants won't be tolerated.

pblakeney

Joelsim wrote:

Job done. All intolerants won't be tolerated.

VTech

thegreatdivide wrote:

VTech wrote:

I find it odd how people always refer to the middle east problems and then about following the money and there you will find the threat.
It is very rare to have the discussion about Isreal and their conflicts.
People refer to Qatar, Saudi etc but that little strip of land off the Mediteranian sea is where a lot of these problems come from.
Im not saying who is right or wrong here, I'm just pointing to the trigger of the gun we are all concerned about.

So you've still not watched Bitter Lake then?

I'm sorry that one of your client countries is being call out here but Saudi Arabia IS the key to this ISIS mess.

Israel, while undeniably being a huge contributor to the Middle East problem is not the cause of ISIS and these nut jobs.

I agree that ISIS is bad, probably one of the worst organisations on the planet right now but it is one side of a problem that really doesn't involve the western world outside of the USA.
On one side you have mindless people killing others for no reason, on the other you have mindless people killing others for no reason.

pblakeney

VTech wrote:

I agree that ISIS is bad, probably one of the worst organisations on the planet right now but it is one side of a problem that really doesn't involve the western world outside of the USA.
On one side you have mindless people killing others for no reason, on the other you have mindless people killing others for no reason.

I would disagree totally with the part in bold.
What differentiates ISIS from the other issues in the World is that they are hell bent on drawing us into a fight whether we like it or not. The other option is to cave in to their "dream World".

ballysmate

PBlakeney wrote:

VTech wrote:

I agree that ISIS is bad, probably one of the worst organisations on the planet right now but it is one side of a problem that really doesn't involve the western world outside of the USA.
On one side you have mindless people killing others for no reason, on the other you have mindless people killing others for no reason.

I would disagree totally with the part in bold.
What differentiates ISIS from the other issues in the World is that they are hell bent on drawing us into a fight whether we like it or not. The other option is to cave in to their "dream World".

I agree with PB, it is our problem.If anyone sees it as nothing to do with us, at what stage would you see it as being a problem for us.
Say we abandon Iraq, Syria to ISIS when do we take action? If Isis sets designs on Turkey, Bulgaria, The Balkans is that our entry point?
No, they have to stopped now, otherwise there will no moderate Islam in the Middle East. All decent people will have been surpressed under the ISIS yoke. Like any other evil regime, the earlier it is stopped, the better for everyone.

ballysmate

In the 1975 film The Wind and the Lion, Sean Connery's character beheads men who have drunk from his well and says to the American woman he has captured

Woman, I want you to understand this: I am not a barbarous man. I am a scholar, and a leader to my people. I am not a barbarous man. These four men have dishonored me. They have eaten from my trees, they have drunk water from my wells; they have done all of these things to me, and they have not even evoked my name to God in thankfulness. I am treated this way because I make war upon the Europeans... You see the man at the well, how he draws the water? When one bucket empties, the other fills. It is so with the world: at present, you are full of power, but you're spilling it wastefully, and Islam is lapping up the drops as they spill from your bucket.

It would appear that "we" have been careless with our water.

ben@31

Why is it our problem? Other nations don't get drawn in, so why should we get involved? There must be dozens of western nations who have no involvement and do not suffer as a result.

ben@31

Ballysmate wrote:

I agree with PB, it is our problem.If anyone sees it as nothing to do with us, at what stage would you see it as being a problem for us.
Say we abandon Iraq, Syria to ISIS when do we take action? If Isis sets designs on Turkey, Bulgaria, The Balkans is that our entry point?
No, they have to stopped now, otherwise there will no moderate Islam in the Middle East. All decent people will have been surpressed under the ISIS yoke. Like any other evil regime, the earlier it is stopped, the better for everyone.

What makes you think they're interested in Bulgeria and anywhere west of that? Are they really interested in the Cotswolds or Chipping Norton ? Or just their home turf ?

ballysmate

ben@31 wrote:

Why is it our problem? Other nations don't get drawn in, so why should we get involved? There must be dozens of western nations who have no involvement and do not suffer as a result.

It is our problem because it is a humanitarian problem, a stain on humanity. It's a problem that is going to get worse. I agree that too many nations are content to sit on their hands.
As I've said here and in other threads, more moderate Islamic nations need to take the lead. The West can help but the impetus and the major effort must come from the Muslim world.