What do you drink on your bike?
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Water with a zero tab in it.Trek,,,, too cool for school ,, apparently0
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You mean nothing except water surely?thecycleclinic wrote:Currently nothing except on 4 hour plus rides.0 -
Usually just water, sometimes I add Maltodextrin.0
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Its not right to say nobody knows the causes of cramps. There are lots of causes, some unknown. However, it seems reasonably well established that dehydration/low salt levels can cause cramps. As can exercise.
I would suggest that most of the boost any drink supplement hits you with, is caffeine and sugar.
Apart from that its just something tasty that makes you want to keep drinking.
Personally - avoid the expensive brands or anything that doesn't dissolve well. Nothing worse than a mouth full of "grit" when you get to the bottom.0 -
I have to say, I'm pretty sceptical about the EFS stuff. Was just reading about the updated ingredient, Malic acid. The first thing you find about it is that it's a food additive and is found in apple juice and wine.The new EFS drink contains 700mg of Malic Acid, which was not found in the previous formula. Malic acid stimulates oxygen consumption by increasing mitochondrial uptake, improving mitochondrial respiration and increasing energy production. Malic acid is essential in the formation of ATP, the body's energy source. Malic acid allows the body to make ATP more efficiently, even under low oxygen, or hypoxic conditions.
I'm sure that description of the role of malic acid in the metabolic cycle is accurate. Whether ingesting malic acid in a drink (and only 0.7g) will ever find its way into that cycle, I rather doubt. It probably just makes the drink taste nice.With the highest electrolyte content available
It says this over and over again. Now, I'm someone who believes that electrolytes in my sports drinks help me fend off cramp (it works for me, even if it's a placebo) but whether I need "the highest electrolyte content available" I'm really not convinced since Zero tabs work just fine.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
diy wrote:Its not right to say nobody knows the causes of cramps. There are lots of causes, some unknown.
Thanks for clearing that up....
Obviously something causes cramp - but there is no single cause - so in effect, nobody knows the cause in any individual case.0 -
Just plain water, filled up before I go. Never topped up whilst out. I must admit I was a bit shocked when I measured how much I was taking on long rides (only 1.2L combined) and must get some bigger ones this summer. Was somewhat dehydrated on the really long rides last year. Maybe 2x1L if they fit on.0
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bflk wrote:Just plain water, filled up before I go. Never topped up whilst out. I must admit I was a bit shocked when I measured how much I was taking on long rides (only 1.2L combined) and must get some bigger ones this summer. Was somewhat dehydrated on the really long rides last year. Maybe 2x1L if they fit on.
Why don't you top up when out? Lots of places will let you have water.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Partly I just don't like stopping, plus worrying about the bike getting nicked whilst I pop in somewhere.0
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I dunno if there is a guide or rule of thumb but on longer rides in the heat I tend to go 500ml per hour. Did a couple of very long MTB events last year and got through 6-8l and still dropped 2kg (mainly water) as I'd probably only burned about 1-2lb of fat.0
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I generally use Torq on anything over a couple of hours.
It tastes nice and i struggle to eat when riding so helps with getting some carbs into me.
I bought a 1.5kg bag at the start of the summer and iv still got quite a bit left. I think it cost me about £20 so although a bit more expensive than tap water it hardly breaks the bank0 -
yep - I did say long.. Typically these are in the order of 100+ miles (off road) 12,000+ ft climb. around 10-11 hours riding. I'm currently training to support a lady on the Southdowns way double attempt - we are going for the record (female). Looking at trying to get under 25 hours.0
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I keep mine simple, either water or Orange juice with a splash of water to dilute it a little.
On the evening summer TTs I might add an electrolyte tab to a water bottle which seems to help avoid cramp on the warm evenings.
I used to use the pre mixed drink sashes but I found near the end of a fast century ride just simple orange juice from a service station picked me right back up better than any mix had previously, and I've just used that ever since for long rides/ racing. If its really warm then I might consider putting a pinch of salt in the juice, but I haven't had a long hot race since I switched to just orange juice.
On a super long ride (>120mi) I might carry a little protein recovery mix to add to water in the last third of the ride to just help the muscles ticking over- usually I just drink the lot in one go during a stop so I can rinse the bottle out and put water/ juice back in to carry on with.
At the Duo last year I did make the terrible mistake of using neat Coke, which was really sticky, fizzed everywhere (even after being left open for a day) and was too sweet to keep hydrated- it was not a good ride!
Good luck with the SDW attempt- obviously take care with the walkers
That'll be a tough ride!0 -
Imposter wrote:diy wrote:Its not right to say nobody knows the causes of cramps. There are lots of causes, some unknown.
Thanks for clearing that up....
Obviously something causes cramp - but there is no single cause - so in effect, nobody knows the cause in any individual case.
I have to agree with Imposter on this one. I've suffered with cramp in the past on long, arduous rides and tried all sorts of things. Then I did some research on the subject and it turns out that lack of electrolytes are not the cause. If they were then all of the muscles in your body would cramp, not just your legs. The one common factor with the cause of cramp is prolonged, hard, physical exercise.
Eventually, after some experimentation, I found out what was making my cramps worse (and post-ride headaches) - drinking too much liquid. I now follow the "Drink when thirsty" rule and consume about half the fluid I thought I needed on a ride. No electrolytes, no cramp, no headaches.0 -
It's not really an area I've read much about but a quick google suggests one might expect to go through around 10g of fat per hour at moderate intensities, not 80g.diy wrote:yep - I did say long.. Typically these are in the order of 100+ miles (off road) 12,000+ ft climb. around 10-11 hours riding. I'm currently training to support a lady on the Southdowns way double attempt - we are going for the record (female). Looking at trying to get under 25 hours.0 -
Got that link - study I read said 30-60g per hour with an additional increase of 10% after the first 4 hours. But the point I was making is even after drinking 6-8l of water I still lost 2kg most of which was water.
For me I get cramp if I go over 2 hours of hard exercise on a fasting day (seems to help if I take the zero cal high5) and if I train when I should be recovering.0 -
Orange juice is highly acidic and a poor choice in a water bottle.
Apple juice or pineapple would be better I'd suggest, far more benign on the tummy.0 -
Mosty water. Sometimes throw in a High-5 tab for some flavour. On hot days or long hard rides I use high-5 tabs too as I find they make it easier to keep drinking and perhaps they help keep the electrolytes balanced too...0
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When are people going to realise that far from "balancing" their electrolyte levels by taking High5 or similar tablets they are actually overloading their system? The reason why sweat is salty is because that is one way that the body rids itself of excess salt in the system. The other way is through urination.
On average we in the UK consume around 8.1g of salt a day (according to NHS sources) which is way more than we need and the body is working all the time to dissipate this excess. Once the body has equalised levels it shuts down the excretion process and conserves what it needs for normal bodily functions. Only in very extreme cases of total salt deprevation for elongated periods is there any risk of hyponatremia.
We have been conned into thinking that we need to replace the salt we lose through sweating which is simply not the case.0 -
I take it that 8.1g of salt is almost entirely in the form of sodium chloride?hypster wrote:When are people going to realise that far from "balancing" their electrolyte levels by taking High5 or similar tablets they are actually overloading their system? The reason why sweat is salty is because that is one way that the body rids itself of excess salt in the system. The other way is through urination.
On average we in the UK consume around 8.1g of salt a day (according to NHS sources) which is way more than we need and the body is working all the time to dissipate this excess. Once the body has equalised levels it shuts down the excretion process and conserves what it needs for normal bodily functions. Only in very extreme cases of total salt deprevation for elongated periods is there any risk of hyponatremia.
We have been conned into thinking that we need to replace the salt we lose through sweating which is simply not the case.0 -
I've tried quite a few and Torq is the one I use now, great taste and has all the bits you need0
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Ai_1 wrote:
I take it that 8.1g of salt is almost entirely in the form of sodium chloride?hypster wrote:When are people going to realise that far from "balancing" their electrolyte levels by taking High5 or similar tablets they are actually overloading their system? The reason why sweat is salty is because that is one way that the body rids itself of excess salt in the system. The other way is through urination.
On average we in the UK consume around 8.1g of salt a day (according to NHS sources) which is way more than we need and the body is working all the time to dissipate this excess. Once the body has equalised levels it shuts down the excretion process and conserves what it needs for normal bodily functions. Only in very extreme cases of total salt deprevation for elongated periods is there any risk of hyponatremia.
We have been conned into thinking that we need to replace the salt we lose through sweating which is simply not the case.
I think see what you are trying to say but I assume all the other vital minerals are available to excess in our daily diets as well so the spectrum of electrolyte replenishment is still unnecessary. Naturally, each manufacturer of an ergogenic aid will claim they include "Ingredient X" which, by implication, if you are foolish enough to let run out will lead to performance degredation. The fact still remains the body is remarkably adept at protecting itself under all sorts of extreme conditions and will retain what it needs and expel what it doesn't. Putting more in just means it has expend a bit or energy to get rid of the excess.
The problem we have as cyclists is that we are always looking for (for want of a better term) "marginal gains". We can't bear to think that any sort of lack is going to degrade our performance. Under those circumstances we tend to over-compensate in order that we never have that problem. Many people have bought into the idea that leg cramps for instance are caused by electrolyte deficiency. As has been stated by several experts the actual cause of leg cramping cannot be attributed to one particular cause. Athletes (encouraged by the supplement manufacturers) then speculate that in their case it could be a lack of electrolytes and proceed down that path.
In my case, all I can say is I bought into that school of thought for many years, trying various electrolyte supplements in ever increasing dosages. What I eventually found was electrolytes made no difference whatsoever, it was an excess of fluid I was consuming which presumably contributed to mild symptoms of hyponatremia. Now that I take no electrolytes directly and limit my fluid intake to my thirst response, I get no leg cramps.
That includes riding the Marmotte last year in 35+ deg C heat, which is about as extereme a test as I want. I don't want to get dogmatic about this as I am not an expert but I have done a lot of reading around the subject of cramping over the years in an effort to resolve the problem which was blighting longer rides. I can accept that people just want to add some flavour to plain water in their bottles but all I would reiterate is that the electrolyte replenishment is unnecessary under normal conditions.0 -
When is it necessary then?
While not exactly scientific - a few years back I looked at my data for two 140K MTB rides. One was with water the other H&B Iso Energy (at nothing like the recommended levels). I certainly performed better on the ISO energy. May have been the caffeine or the carbs, or a placebo? Or 1M other differences. But it was the difference between feeling like death after 5 hours and feeling ok after 5 hours.0 -
diy wrote:When is it necessary then?
While not exactly scientific - a few years back I looked at my data for two 140K MTB rides. One was with water the other H&B Iso Energy (at nothing like the recommended levels). I certainly performed better on the ISO energy. May have been the caffeine or the carbs, or a placebo? Or 1M other differences. But it was the difference between feeling like death after 5 hours and feeling ok after 5 hours.
May have been the caffeine or the carbs? Or maybe it could have been a 101 other different factors. Are you really prepared to conclude it was just the electrolytes? If you're anything like me you will spend countless hours/rides trying different combinations of factors before making your mind your mind up. Not every ride will cause problems of course and different conditions will give different results.
I also was of the impression that if I was suffering with cramp on a ride, I must be dehydrated. For years I felt like I sweated more than my friends on the bike and consequently drank more than they did. Then one particular century sportive about two years ago I was hit with really bad cramp at about 60 miles. This was despite drinking plenty (I thought) with electrolytes and so I drank more. I found also that I was having to stop every 10 miles or so to pee which seemed ridiculous. The cramps got worse. Then I thought I can't go on like this, I can't be dehydrated so I decided to stop drinking altogether. By mile 80 the cramps had gone and I finished the last ten miles of the ride stronger than a lot of my mates.
I started reading around about cramping and hydration and eventually discovered "Waterlogged" by Tim Noakes which was a revelation for me. You don't have to buy the book (I didn't), there are plenty of articles and YouTube videos on the web which convey the basic idea. Since then I have arrived at a situation where I drink about a third of the liquid I used to drink on a ride and use no electrolytes even on long, hot rides and sometimes finish a bit dehydrated. That is easily remedied by drinking a bit more but if you over-hydrate it can take hours to rid your system of the excess fluid.
I don't really know how we have come to this situation where people are so obsessed with being hydrated. All you need to do is drink when you are thirsty. It's a time-old mechanism and quite why we are advised to drink 5 litres a day or whatever the recommended volume is is beyond me. Surely everyone is different and has different fluid requirements based on a variety of factors?
It may well be that my experiences don't suit everyone but I'm willing to bet that there are a lot more people out there suffering more with the effects of over-hydration rather than dehydration. You don't have to go to extremes, just drink when you are thirsty and that should take care of your fluid requirements whatever your physiological make-up or the prevailing ride conditions are.0 -
No - I'm not saying it was electrolytes. Simple maths say on avg - I'm consuming 80-100g of stuff per hour (80% carbs/20% fat in the 1st hour and gradually moving to fat as the carbs get used up). I was with you up until you said drink when thirsty as its the best indicator of needing water. I do a fair bit of sailing and a lot of long distance cycling and you'd probably get heat stroke if you relied on thirst to tell you when you needed water.
IME you do have to concentrate on drinking (and eating) for longer endurance activity. After 10 hours you are absolutely sick of the stuff, but you have needed it.0 -
diy wrote:No - I'm not saying it was electrolytes. Simple maths say on avg - I'm consuming 80-100g of stuff per hour (80% carbs/20% fat in the 1st hour and gradually moving to fat as the carbs get used up). I was with you up until you said drink when thirsty as its the best indicator of needing water. I do a fair bit of sailing and a lot of long distance cycling and you'd probably get heat stroke if you relied on thirst to tell you when you needed water.
IME you do have to concentrate on drinking (and eating) for longer endurance activity. After 10 hours you are absolutely sick of the stuff, but you have needed it.
I have to say that's not my experience. 60g of CHO per hour is usually the maximum figure I see repeatedly in research documents as the maximum that the stomach can safely process without distress. That's a generalisation of course and you might well find from experience that you can push this limit with positive results.
As far as water consumption/electrolytes is concerned I'm not sure why anybody thinks it's a good thing to have more than you need but it's probably a fear of the consequences of deficiency which I now find is not as bad as I perceived. Bonking through the lack of energy replenishment is the obvious example but it's not always the case that more is better. Too much can often spell more problems than too little as in the case of some vitamin supplements for example.
I now find the thirst signal more than adequate under all conditions. As I stated previously I did the Marmotte last year in 35 degree C heat and despite sweating profusely for nigh on ten hours finished in okay condition just drinking to thirst. I probably poured more water over my head than down my throat! The funny thing is I also have to continually fight the habit of just drinking every so often even when I don't need it.
Maybe you are just someone is too preoccupied with what they are doing to take notice of the signs (not meant as a criticism just speculation). I'm with you on the endurance events though and fundamentally everyone has to do what works for them. That's why I present my experiences as an alternative to the vested interests who advise you to eat/drink this that or the other otherwise you will collapse on the bike. After many years of experimentation of all sorts of refuelling strategies I am now finding less is more. Maybe some other people will also come to that conclusion rather than continually looking for the magic ingredient which gives them the edge on a ride.
It seems to take a lot to overturn the inertia of established dogmas and habits. Much in the same way that people are beginning to realise that sugar is the big nutritional problem of the modern age rather than fat. It has taken several decades to begin to counter the misinformation campaign on the part of the food industry that had a vested interest in selling cheap fructose to the masses.0 -
Ribena with a pinch of sea salt works for me.0
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hypster wrote:I found also that I was having to stop every 10 miles or so to pee which seemed ridiculous.
It's no wonder you are obsessed with "Waterlogged" and Dr Noakes. God knows what you were doing but you certainly weren't drinking normally. If you drink too much too fast, it will go straight through you and won't hydrate you either. My experience is that, on a warm day, riders I know will only stop for a pee every 3 hours or so.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
meanredspider wrote:hypster wrote:I found also that I was having to stop every 10 miles or so to pee which seemed ridiculous.
It's no wonder you are obsessed with "Waterlogged" and Dr Noakes. God knows what you were doing but you certainly weren't drinking normally. If you drink too much too fast, it will go straight through you and won't hydrate you either. My experience is that, on a warm day, riders I know will only stop for a pee every 3 hours or so.
That was a one-off situation that I used to illustrate my point. My legs were cramping so I assumed that I was dehydrated and drank more causing me to pee more frequently than usual. It wasn't until I connected the two things that I realised that it wasn't dehydration that was causing the cramps but over-hydration. A natural enough mistake that a lot of people on this and other threads seem to be making. Hence my "obsession" with "Waterlogged" and why I was trying to help people consider other solutions for their problem rather than just blindly following erroneous suggestions like electrolyte deficiency.0
