You jumped a red light - i'm booking you!

Undertones · January 2015

philthy3 wrote:

Undertones wrote:

All these people jumping on the "your actions were wrong wagon" are pretty ignorant.

Moving ten yards to clip in and therefore slow down motorists a bit less when you know the lights and the road is hardly akin flying through them with no regard.

The offence is failing to stop at the stop line. As soon as you cross it, you commit the offence even if it is to go 10 yards trying to clip in.

First it's hopping red lights next it's crack peddling.

ai_1 · January 2015

diy wrote:

@ai_1
Moving to the front of the queue vs. hanging one or two back has at least the following:
1. The risk of getting run over as the lights change as you get to the front
2. the risk of getting run over by people pulling away on red/amber
3. the risk of being hit by a car jumping the red the other way as you are first to pull away

1 & 2 are pretty significant risks - they rank pretty high in plod cas/stats for junction accidents - Being 1 or 2 back
Gives you more time for 1 & 2, 3 is also less likely.

On a motorbike you lose absolutely bugger all as you can pass those 2 cars as soon as the traffic pulls away. I appreciate on a bike you may drop a couple of seconds.

Thanks for the explanation. I generally move to the front of a column of traffic when there's room to do so safely and if I'm pretty sure there's a bike box (ASL?) so that I can move just ahead of the motorised traffic and make myself easily visible. The goal is not to save time, it's purely to earn some space. As a driver myself I believe you get less attention when you're alongside traffic further back and the car beside or behind you is splitting his attention between you and the next motorised vehicle in front of him. I take your point however that arriving at the front just as the lights change could present a danger and it is very true that the worst place to be is squeezed between traffic and the kerb when the lights change. My approach has never gotten me in any sticky situations or caused any obvious anger from motorists but then I don't often ride in busy cities, most junctions I encounter are at worst moderately busy and in medium sized towns rather than cities. If there are any mitigating circumstances that change the risks involved I change my behaviour to suit but to date I've generally considered moving to a visible position just ahead of traffic to be the safest option. However, I'll bear your advice in mind next time I'm in the city.

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

....I never see the point in going to the head of a queue of traffic at red lights, only for the traffic to have to overtake me again. In a busy town with loads of lights this can be repeated at each set of lights. Just sit in traffic at the lights and progress last the traffic at other times. You think people get wound up if you jump a red light, see how wound up they get when you roll past them and then hold them up when the lights go green.

As above, I can generally avoid heavy city traffic so my experience is more with moderately busy junctions in mid sized towns. Perhaps the equation is a little different in very heavy city traffic.

ForumNewbie · January 2015

Ai_1 wrote:

diy wrote:

@ai_1
Moving to the front of the queue vs. hanging one or two back has at least the following:
1. The risk of getting run over as the lights change as you get to the front
2. the risk of getting run over by people pulling away on red/amber
3. the risk of being hit by a car jumping the red the other way as you are first to pull away

1 & 2 are pretty significant risks - they rank pretty high in plod cas/stats for junction accidents - Being 1 or 2 back
Gives you more time for 1 & 2, 3 is also less likely.

On a motorbike you lose absolutely bugger all as you can pass those 2 cars as soon as the traffic pulls away. I appreciate on a bike you may drop a couple of seconds.

Thanks for the explanation. I generally move to the front of a column of traffic when there's room to do so safely and if I'm pretty sure there's a bike box (ASL?) so that I can move just ahead of the motorised traffic and make myself easily visible. The goal is not to save time, it's purely to earn some space. As a driver myself I believe you get less attention when you're alongside traffic further back and the car beside or behind you is splitting his attention between you and the next motorised vehicle in front of him. I take your point however that arriving at the front just as the lights change could present a danger and it is very true that the worst place to be is squeezed between traffic and the kerb when the lights change. My approach has never gotten me in any sticky situations or caused any obvious anger from motorists but then I don't often ride in busy cities, most junctions I encounter are at worst moderately busy and in medium sized towns rather than cities. If there are any mitigating circumstances that change the risks involved I change my behaviour to suit but to date I've generally considered moving to a visible position just ahead of traffic to be the safest option. However, I'll bear your advice in mind next time I'm in the city.

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

....I never see the point in going to the head of a queue of traffic at red lights, only for the traffic to have to overtake me again. In a busy town with loads of lights this can be repeated at each set of lights. Just sit in traffic at the lights and progress last the traffic at other times. You think people get wound up if you jump a red light, see how wound up they get when you roll past them and then hold them up when the lights go green.

As above, I can generally avoid heavy city traffic so my experience is more with moderately busy junctions in mid sized towns. Perhaps the equation is a little different in very heavy city traffic.

I thought the main point of the bike box at the front of the lane at traffic lights is so that the cyclist is not caught at the kerbside at the front with a car (or worse a lorry that can't see the cyclist) alongside in the same lane and planning to turn left.

I do agree with the important point about not moving up to the box when the lights may just be about to change, but if the lights have just changed to red, I don't see a problem in moving in front of a few cars into the bike box. As soon as the lights change to green and I set-off crossing the junction I move to the side of the road so that the cars behind can pass me.

pastryboy · January 2015

People saying getting yourself to the front is bad, are you assuming people are going up the left hand side of cars near the kerb?

I generally do move to the front but only if I can get there by overtaking (never undertaking unless there's a cycle lane to an ASL then I'll do it carefullly) or filtering between the lines of cars.

I've got to the front as lights were changing and it's no problem - either accelerate hard before the cars have got going or just stay level and find a space to tuck in behind a car. You might not feel safe in the middle of two moving cars but wing mirrors aside, they'll never get close enough to squash you in the middle and you'll only be there briefly.

My aim in getting to the front is always to make sure I can get out of the way and let cars pass (same principle as an ASL) and I know I'm quicker over the first ten yards than a car. I don't do anything that would annoy me if I was one of the drivers.

type:epyt · January 2015

I always filter cars on the right ... you won't get squeezed and any driver can clearly see you merge when traffic starts to flow ... Never once had anyone block my path, beep a horn or generally be a douche ... Buses/lorry's are no issue as you can pinch a bit of the opposite lane to get by if stationary or just drift in behind if traffic starts to flow ...

Filter on the inside (left) however, there will always be someone who drifts over to block/impede your path ...

adr82 · January 2015

pastryboy wrote:

People saying getting yourself to the front is bad, are you assuming people are going up the left hand side of cars near the kerb?

I generally do move to the front but only if I can get there by overtaking (never undertaking unless there's a cycle lane to an ASL then I'll do it carefullly) or filtering between the lines of cars.

I've got to the front as lights were changing and it's no problem - either accelerate hard before the cars have got going or just stay level and find a space to tuck in behind a car. You might not feel safe in the middle of two moving cars but wing mirrors aside, they'll never get close enough to squash you in the middle and you'll only be there briefly.

Like most things it can be bad rather than always being bad. If done right I have no problem with it, and I do it myself when it makes sense. The thing is that there seems to be a widespread perception (especially among casual cyclists) that getting to the front is basically something you must make every effort to do, every chance you get, possibly because ASLs are meant to be "safer". Almost everyone I see does go up the inside, again I'd imagine because they equate being close to the kerb with safety. I'd also bet that a majority of these cyclists wouldn't feel comfortable in the middle of two lanes of traffic that suddenly started moving, and I'm afraid I don't share your level of trust that drivers will leave you room in situations like that, assuming they have actually seen you in the first place! Not saying anyone would deliberately try to squash you, but I can certainly believe there would be a type of person who thinks "You put yourself in that position Mr Cyclist, I'm not helping you get out of it".

pastryboy wrote:

My aim in getting to the front is always to make sure I can get out of the way and let cars pass (same principle as an ASL) and I know I'm quicker over the first ten yards than a car. I don't do anything that would annoy me if I was one of the drivers.

I agree it's easy to outdistance cars when you're moving off... but then shortly after that you'll often find yourself with impatient drivers behind you as soon as they catch up. I don't see the point in getting up to the front solely "to get out of the way" when often you're only doing that temporarily if at all. If you're so concerned about letting cars pass you, the obvious question is why you don't just sit behind them in the queue and not have to deal with the problem in the first place?

pastryboy · January 2015

Cars don't get close enough to eachother to squash you in the middle - they'd be hitting wing mirrors if they were that close - there's always enough space in my experience. I'm only talking about being there for a second or so if the traffic has started moving - very easy to drop back and tuck in.

I don't like having cars in front of me when setting off - far too often they get started and suddenly brake or just turn without indicating. On 30mph limit London roads there's a fair chance I'll be at the next red light before anyone has even had the chance to overtake.

I'm talking about long queues here of course. If there's two or three cars no problem, I'll sit at the back but I'm often faced with very long queues. I can't imagine any cyclist is going to sit behind 20 cars breathing in fumes watching the light go green for ten seconds at a time and then creeping forward 10 yards every couple of minutes.

adr82 · January 2015

pastryboy wrote:

Cars don't get close enough to eachother to squash you in the middle - they'd be hitting wing mirrors if they were that close - there's always enough space in my experience. I'm only talking about being there for a second or so if the traffic has started moving - very easy to drop back and tuck in.

Yes they do! Are you saying you've never been forced to change lanes while filtering because the gap between two vehicles is too small to even fit your bars, much less actually ride through? They might not stay in close proximity for long once they start moving, but it only takes a second to cause an accident as well... gaps can open and close rapidly and unpredictably.

(btw I'm not trying to tell you that you should stop doing it when you feel experienced and comfortable with it, but it's not something you can promote as a quick fix for people filtering up the inside of traffic because it still has a lot of potential dangers.)

pastryboy wrote:

I don't like having cars in front of me when setting off - far too often they get started and suddenly brake or just turn without indicating. On 30mph limit London roads there's a fair chance I'll be at the next red light before anyone has even had the chance to overtake.

Yes, they can do that... but at the same time if they're in front of you there's a better chance of being able to react to any stupid moves they make rather than being surprised at someone coming past unexpectedly (eg someone who wants to make a left turn 50m after the junction, gets impatient and left hooks you).

pastryboy wrote:

I'm talking about long queues here of course. If there's two or three cars no problem, I'll sit at the back but I'm often faced with very long queues. I can't imagine any cyclist is going to sit behind 20 cars breathing in fumes watching the light go green for ten seconds at a time and then creeping forward 10 yards every couple of minutes.

Don't disagree with any of that! It's just that as I said, I often do see people doing silly things to get past 2-3 cars when waiting would be so much more sensible.

pastryboy · January 2015

When filtering I err on the side of caution and I'm happy to be patient. I've been between cars with not much room when they've started accelerating and have quickly realised it wasn't a good place to be and eased up, let them pass me and then take a place in behind.I generally wouldn't put myself between two lanes of cars that were already moving.

I'm never surprised by someone coming past me. I always shoulder check as I move away from lights to see what's coming and how much space I have. I always shoulder check when I'm approaching a junction to make sure that I'm not going to be in any position to be left hooked. I shoulder check on straights even when I can't hear any cars. I shoulder check my shoulder checks.

adr82 · January 2015

pastryboy wrote:

When filtering I err on the side of caution and I'm happy to be patient. I've been between cars with not much room when they've started accelerating and have quickly realised it wasn't a good place to be and eased up, let them pass me and then take a place in behind.I generally wouldn't put myself between two lanes of cars that were already moving.

I'm never surprised by someone coming past me. I always shoulder check as I move away from lights to see what's coming and how much space I have. I always shoulder check when I'm approaching a junction to make sure that I'm not going to be in any position to be left hooked. I shoulder check on straights even when I can't hear any cars. I shoulder check my shoulder checks.

For the last time, I'm not trying to disparage your personal cycling habits. You asked why some people thought filtering to the front was bad, I answered. You don't have to start claiming you spend more time looking backwards than forwards in response to a throwaway comment...

pastryboy · January 2015

..and I'm answering questions you've put to me and saying that, in my experience, it's not if you got about it in the right way.

lakesluddite · January 2015

It's obvious that there is no 'one size fits all' approach to the filtering/queueing situations that we find ourselves faced with on our different journeys through different town and cities.

Surely it's just a matter of what you feel comfortable with doing - I'm certainly not going to change my habits/routine because someone else does it differently.

chris_bass · January 2015

LakesLuddite wrote:

It's obvious that there is no 'one size fits all' approach to the filtering/queueing situations that we find ourselves faced with on our different journeys through different town and cities.

Surely it's just a matter of what you feel comfortable with doing - I'm certainly not going to change my habits/routine because someone else does it differently.

completely agree with this.

Some lights I come up to have a really wide but still single carriage road, there is plenty of room to filter (on either side) so easy to get to the front and you won't be stranded if the traffic starts to move.

Others are narrower and if cars are coming the other way i'd rather hang back and take a position in the road so I give myself as much room as possible.

Just do what suits the situation, keeps you safest and you are most comfortable with.

ai_1 · January 2015

LakesLuddite wrote:

It's obvious that there is no 'one size fits all' approach to the filtering/queueing situations that we find ourselves faced with on our different journeys through different town and cities.

Surely it's just a matter of what you feel comfortable with doing - I'm certainly not going to change my habits/routine because someone else does it differently.

There may not be a one size fits all but ideally there should be some consistency in the behaviours of cyclists. Predictability is one of the most important factors in creating a safe culture on the roads. We really want motorists to know what to expect from us. Very hard to ever achieve if we all act differently. I know that's not a realistic hope for the moment but no harm to at least aspire to it!

I'm not ruling out changing my habits because someone else does it differently. There have been some good points made here, and some I'm less impressed with. I'll consider adopting some of the suggested approaches if I find them effective.

diy · January 2015

The basics are : look, plan, do, repeat. Few people plan and plenty don't look, but the important thing is once you have looked come up with a plan based on what you can see and where you've identified possible risks. You wont go too far wrong if you go for high benefit, low risk and hold back when its high risk low benefit.

bigmat · January 2015

Isn't the point of moving to the front of queuing traffic so that you can set off as soon as the way is clear, rather than wait for the lights to change like all the cars have to? And it avoids sitting in a cloud of fumes from the revving engine in front of you...

ai_1 · January 2015

BigMat wrote:

Isn't the point of moving to the front of queuing traffic so that you can set off as soon as the way is clear, rather than wait for the lights to change like all the cars have to? And it avoids sitting in a cloud of fumes from the revving engine in front of you...

If all the cars have to then all the bikes have to?
Do you want to be treated like a responsible equal or not?
I kinda hope you're trolling.

bigmat · January 2015

Ai_1 wrote:

BigMat wrote:

Isn't the point of moving to the front of queuing traffic so that you can set off as soon as the way is clear, rather than wait for the lights to change like all the cars have to? And it avoids sitting in a cloud of fumes from the revving engine in front of you...

If all the cars have to then all the bikes have to?
Do you want to be treated like a responsible equal or not?
I kinda hope you're trolling.

Forgive me father, for I was trolling.... Still true though, although I try to be good for the most part.

tangled_metal · January 2015

Isn't there a book called cyclecraft that is a guide how to ride safely?

As an aside there is a book called roadcraft that is the motoring original that was re-written for cyclists in the first book. The roadcraft book was based on the basic police driving course/training which was brought in due to the variable state of police driving at the time - there were too many police accidents and inconsistent police driving. Or this is what my local road safety group (read that as advanced/safe driving group) senior instructor who was an advanced driving instructor at Penwortham Police college (or whatever it was called).

It promotes a 7 point system compared to a 3 point system (mirror, signal, manoeuvre). IMHO a system like that along with good hazard awareness that it promotes applies to all., not just motorists but also cyclists. However that should be added to with cycle specifics. If you follow these two publications I would suggest that you are behaving as a responsible road user and should be both safe for yourself but also safe for others through a consistant approach that motorists should not find infuriating.

Good BS that... motorists (myself especially when not cycling) find all cyclists other than themselves annoying if they are honest.

PS Kendal is a nice place to cycle through. At Lancaster myself and that is good too if you can take the cycling rat runs (all legal of course). Nothing like big cities at all.

gozzy · January 2015

Cyclecraft is absolutely the best guide to good riding. Get it, read it, and practise it.

diy · January 2015

Cyclecraft isn't based on road craft, well if it is the author didn't understand road craft. Cyclecraft isn't very good imo. Roadcraft is based on a 5 phase system IPSGA - Information, Position, speed, gear, acceleration.

acceleration is always going to be a challenge for a cyclist and gear less of an issue. But the motorcycle version is well worth a read. Its used for both the IAM and RoSPA advanced driving tests.

You jumped a red light - i'm booking you!

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