10sp Road STi levers + 10sp MTB Rear Mech/Cassette?

Manc33
Manc33 Posts: 2,157
edited January 2015 in Workshop
Will that work?
«1

Comments

  • jimothy78
    jimothy78 Posts: 1,407
    Don't think so - I'm pretty sure that you can use 10spd Road shifters with a 9-spd MTB derailleur to bodge a 10-speed setup, though, if that helps. (IIRC, Road 10spd and MTB 9spd both use 1:2 pull ratio, but MTB 10spd uses 1:1)
  • gloomyandy
    gloomyandy Posts: 520
    edited January 2015
    Depends what make of lever/mech you are using. I'm pretty sure that this does work with SRAM which use 1:1 for both systems.
  • arthur_scrimshaw
    arthur_scrimshaw Posts: 2,596
    If you already have the gear then try it, if you don't tell us why you want to do this, is it to get extremely low gearing for example?
  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    Manc33 wrote:
    Will that work?
    If Shimano then no it will not.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • Semantik
    Semantik Posts: 537
    This Shimano 9 SPEED rear mech WILL work with Shimano 10 speed road Sti shifters and Shimano or Sram 10 speed cassette:
    http://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-deo ... 45165.html
  • Manc33
    Manc33 Posts: 2,157
    edited January 2015
    But then you'd be using a 9-Speed MTB rear mech on a 10-Speed MTB cassette, is that alright to do?

    So it would be:

    Shifters: 10sp STi (I want to end up with 7803 shifters, bloody hard to find though)
    Cassette: 10sp MTB cassette probably a 11-34
    Chain: 10sp
    Rear mech: 9sp MTB

    I don't have the equipment to try it, I don't even have a pair of STi shifters anymore.

    Going to try to set my chainset up to be 53-40-24 too, I'll get praying...

    Just read a story:

    "I swapped out my 7800 shifters for 7801 but they seem to be the same"

    And people say I throw money at my bike?! :shock:

    Then he says "Oh I wasted my money then" (the difference was the 7800's chew Flight Deck cables and the 7801 doesn't, but if you don't use Flight Deck, it doesn't matter one iota. Who just drops $500/£330 like that on a whim?
  • Semantik
    Semantik Posts: 537
    Manc33 wrote:
    But then you'd be using a 9-Speed MTB rear mech on a 10-Speed MTB cassette, is that alright to do?

    I refer you to the comments I made earlier...
  • jimothy78
    jimothy78 Posts: 1,407
    Manc33 wrote:
    But then you'd be using a 9-Speed MTB rear mech on a 10-Speed MTB cassette, is that alright to do?

    So it would be:

    Shifters: 10sp STi (I want to end up with 7803 shifters, bloody hard to find though)
    Cassette: 10sp MTB cassette probably a 11-34
    Chain: 10sp
    Rear mech: 9sp MTB

    Yes, that all works.
    Going to try to set my chainset up to be 53-40-24 too, I'll get praying...

    That might be a sticking point - that would give you a total difference of 59 teeth between big/big and small/small - I'm not sure if there's a 9-speed rear mech with that much "capacity". Of course, you don't aim to use those gear combinations, but you need to allow for accidental shifts without the drivetrain exploding ;-)
    Do you really need this huge range of gears? Using a MTB cassette on a road bike would normally mean people would drop at least one chainring, surely?
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    That is way to much capacity also have you tried getting 50T chainrings for an MTB chainset?

    24:34T in any case is unseably short gearing. Spinnging at 80 cadence would have you moving so slowly you would have trouble keeping the bike upright. The mech lacks the required capasity in any case.

    Anything lower than 1:1 on a road bike is completly pointless as it would be quicker to walk.

    I have done the 10 speed shifter, with a compact chainset, XT 9 speed medium cage rear mech and 11-34T cassette and with the B tension screw adjusted to the limit the top jocket wheel just cleared the large sprocket. That is gearing for a long 1n3 hill
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Manc33
    Manc33 Posts: 2,157
    When I originally got the bike it had a 30t granny with a 25t lowest sprocket... I got about 20 meters up Snake Pass and just came home. Now what is the point of that! There is no chance I can pedal uphill in that gear, not a hill that long anyway. People with far more energy than me never will understand it! I just want to go places, its no use saying "get fitter first, then go up Snake Pass" lol. What for if I can just get up it with lower gears?

    The gears are ridiculously low on it as it is, with 24t granny and 32t big sprocket. With that now I can just about get up this 9% gradient near where I live and its about 200M long, if that. Yes, my mate can just stand up on the middle ring of the chainset and middle sprocket and blast up there, but he has the energy to do it.

    Bear in mind this is all with nothing on the bike except me, imagine if I was doing fully loaded touring.
    Semantik wrote:
    Manc33 wrote:
    But then you'd be using a 9-Speed MTB rear mech on a 10-Speed MTB cassette, is that alright to do?

    I refer you to the comments I made earlier...

    OK cheers. I am getting confused with cable pull. :oops:

    I only just got a RD-M772, lucky. :)
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Manc33 wrote:
    When I originally got the bike it had a 30t granny with a 25t lowest sprocket... I got about 20 meters up Snake Pass and just came home. Now what is the point of that! There is no chance I can pedal uphill in that gear, not a hill that long anyway. People with far more energy than me never will understand it! I just want to go places, its no use saying "get fitter first, then go up Snake Pass" lol. What for if I can just get up it with lower gears?

    The gears are ridiculously low on it as it is, with 24t granny and 32t big sprocket. With that now I can just about get up this 9% gradient near where I live and its about 200M long, if that. Yes, my mate can just stand up on the middle ring of the chainset and middle sprocket and blast up there, but he has the energy to do it.

    Bear in mind this is all with nothing on the bike except me, imagine if I was doing fully loaded touring.

    I've just set up my tourer with 26-34 bottom gear. That is for fully loaded touring, with tent, in Norway. It isn't needed for a road bike.

    Yes, it is use saying 'get fitter first' - because that's what everybody else does. They don't invent engineering problems that only they need a solution for. Snake Pass isn't very steep but it is long. Find shorter hills of similar gradients and practice going up them. If you are looking for 24-34 to get you up Snake Pass, what gearing are you going to be trying to fit when you want to go up a hill that actually is steep? It is hard work getting the fitness to climb hills but anyone can do it. Unless they are lazy. Despite appearances we are all of the same species. If you spent less time asking really weird questions on here, ignoring the advice and then fitting wrong things to your bike, you'd have more time to get fit and learn how to cycle up hills.

    Just ride the bl00dy bike! :wink:
    Faster than a tent.......
  • lesfirth
    lesfirth Posts: 1,382
    Rolf F wrote:
    Manc33 wrote:
    When I originally got the bike it had a 30t granny with a 25t lowest sprocket... I got about 20 meters up Snake Pass and just came home. Now what is the point of that! There is no chance I can pedal uphill in that gear, not a hill that long anyway. People with far more energy than me never will understand it! I just want to go places, its no use saying "get fitter first, then go up Snake Pass" lol. What for if I can just get up it with lower gears?

    The gears are ridiculously low on it as it is, with 24t granny and 32t big sprocket. With that now I can just about get up this 9% gradient near where I live and its about 200M long, if that. Yes, my mate can just stand up on the middle ring of the chainset and middle sprocket and blast up there, but he has the energy to do it.

    Bear in mind this is all with nothing on the bike except me, imagine if I was doing fully loaded touring.

    I've just set up my tourer with 26-34 bottom gear. That is for fully loaded touring, with tent, in Norway. It isn't needed for a road bike.

    Yes, it is use saying 'get fitter first' - because that's what everybody else does. They don't invent engineering problems that only they need a solution for. Snake Pass isn't very steep but it is long. Find shorter hills of similar gradients and practice going up them. If you are looking for 24-34 to get you up Snake Pass, what gearing are you going to be trying to fit when you want to go up a hill that actually is steep? It is hard work getting the fitness to climb hills but anyone can do it. Unless they are lazy. Despite appearances we are all of the same species. If you spent less time asking really weird questions on here, ignoring the advice and then fitting wrong things to your bike, you'd have more time to get fit and learn how to cycle up hills.

    Just ride the bl00dy bike! :wink:

    :D:D:D
  • Manc33
    Manc33 Posts: 2,157
    Guys I am confused again. :P

    Will this work together:

    Shifters: SL-R783 (flar bar/road)
    Rear mech: MTB 9spd
    Cassette: MTB 10spd
    Chain: 10spd

    I know a 9 speed MTB rear mech can't work with 10 speed shifters.
    I think a 10 speed MTB rear mech also can't work with 9 speed shifters.

    This is harder than chess. :lol:

    If a 10spd rear MTB mech is needed to run on the 10spd MTB cassette, then can that work with those R783 shifters?
  • jimothy78
    jimothy78 Posts: 1,407
    Manc33 wrote:
    I know a 9 speed MTB rear mech can't work with 10 speed shifters.
    I think a 10 speed MTB rear mech also can't work with 9 speed shifters.

    The above rules apply if you are using shifters and rear mech that are both road or both mtb variants.
    However, as stated several times above, a 9-speed MTB mech will work with a 10-speed ROAD shifter as these parts use the same pull ratio.
  • Manc33
    Manc33 Posts: 2,157
    Found a makeshift fix using different trigger shifters, they're not even the same colour. :roll:

    Left shifter - SL-R440
    Front mech - FD-R443

    If those don't play well together I don't know what would!

    Right shifter - Normal XT MTB shifter
    Rear mech - Normal XT 9-Speed mech

    Here's what I think:

    Flat bar shifters look like trigger shifters and a lot of people seem to think they are just "MTB shifters". Nope, a front MTB shifter won't work with a "flat bar" front mech (for example R443). It does change to the chainrings fine, the spacing is fine there, but it has a lot of loose cable when on the granny ring.

    So it seems there are 3 cable pulls for a front mech - road, MTB, flat bar.

    Flat bar is a thing of its own or seems to be.

    Whats going to annoy me is that crappy "trim control" on the left trigger shifter you can't switch off, the old XTR M951 left trigger shifter doesn't do that, I can't stand it and it is the main reason I sold those Claris 2400 flat bar shifters.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Manc33 wrote:
    Flat bar shifters look like trigger shifters and a lot of people seem to think they are just "MTB shifters". Nope, a front MTB shifter won't work with a "flat bar" front mech (for example R443). It does change to the chainrings fine, the spacing is fine there, but it has a lot of loose cable when on the granny ring.

    So it does work then. Only you just said it doesn't. And then you said it did. Loose cable is down to your setup ability (or lack thereof).
  • Manc33
    Manc33 Posts: 2,157
    No there is no way to set that up, the "best" setup is having a loose cable when on the granny ring.

    Unscrewing the inner indexing screw slightly to "take up the slack" isn't an option, because it is already on the limit and the chainline is correct. Except maybe a MTB shifter "expects" a 50mm chainline, which would explain it, wait no, that causes more cable slack, not less. :oops: The FD needs to go in more and can't.

    It is setup so the front mech only just doesn't rub on the inner mech plate when on middle chainring > biggest sprocket. You can't have the mech looser, or tighter. If I set it up so the cable pull is right, then it rubs on about 3 or 4 of the biggest sprockets.

    After doing all of that and trying different chainline widths (trying a 115mm BB and a 122.5mm BB) it now works the "best" way with the 122.5mm (gives a 45mm chainline like its meant to be) and you just have to put up with a loose cable on the granny ring.

    If it could be setup to work I would have done it by now, or you'd suggest what to do. :P

    You can't do anything, no one can. The only solution is having a "flat bar" specific left shifter with a "flat bar" specific front mech. Shimano say some stuff won't work with other stuff when it will, but they also do say such-a-part must be used with some other part, so its hard to tell. Sometimes they do mean it must be, sometimes you can mix and match.

    There's pages and pages of debates over the cable pull on countless forums - but there's three variants, not just two.

    My other reason to swap to separates is I have XTR brake levers (part of the shifter) and that is only giving me half the braking power of a road brake lever, so those are getting swapped for BL-R780 levers. I'll just have to live with that trim function on the left shifter, I hate it though. :evil: I would rather have the chain rubbing.

    Those old thumb shifters used to be better than rapid fire, yeah I said it. :) They really were. Once you got used to a friction triple you could change gear miles better than these stupid indexed ones. Even better on a double where you can do devil-may-care shifting. :lol:

    The best answer on here was by the caveman guy, who said he has tried everything including what I am trying and the only thing that works is getting the exact matching component, ergo flat bar goes with flat bar. Nothing flat bar works with road and nothing flat bar works with MTB, on front mechs/shifters that is. The back has never been a problem going all the way back to 5 speed.

    If you need something to pick at, I accidentally got a used shifter on eBay for £16 when CRC is selling them for £15 new. :x Panic buy.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Manc33 wrote:
    No there is no way to set that up, the "best" setup is having a loose cable when on the granny ring.

    Think about it - why should there be tension on the cable when the mechanism is resting against the inner limit stopper?
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    This thread is the bicycle equivalent of watching an old person using a slow computer. You know, when the computer briefly stops and the user clicks everything in sight? It's like that.
    - - - - - - - - - -
    On Strava.{/url}
  • Manc33
    Manc33 Posts: 2,157
    Imposter wrote:
    Manc33 wrote:
    No there is no way to set that up, the "best" setup is having a loose cable when on the granny ring.

    Think about it - why should there be tension on the cable when the mechanism is resting against the inner limit stopper?

    It shouldn't have any tension on it, but it shouldn't be loose either. Its happening because it is a MTB front shifter with a R443 front mech. It works if you don't mind giving the lever a bit more of a shove from granny to middle, but I am getting a flat bar front shifter to fix it.

    I'd be ditching my MTB shift/levers anyway, because I need flat bar brake levers for my road calipers.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Mate - you are in a world of your own....
  • Manc33
    Manc33 Posts: 2,157
    Why?

    I have loose cable on the granny ring because the cable pull isn't right using a MTB shifter and R443 front mech, or don't you believe it? :?

    Not that this has anything to do with 10sp STi levers.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    The cable pull ratio is the same across pretty much all FDs from all manufacturers. You have a loose cable because the cable is under no tension when it is on the granny ring (or the inner ring on a double). All my bikes are the same, I suspect most people's are. Yet despite this fact - and the fact that your shifter/FD combo appears to shift rings perfectly well otherwise (which it wouldn't do if the cable pull was not compatible) - you see this as a sign that the combination 'does not work'. And that is truly bizarre.
  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    Manc33 wrote:
    Why?

    I have loose cable on the granny ring because the cable pull isn't right using a MTB shifter and R443 front mech, or don't you believe it? :?

    Not that this has anything to do with 10sp STi levers.
    strange how it works for many people. I currently have a Sram trigger shifter running with a rival front mech.

    I have also set many bikes up with MTB triggers and shimano road front mechs.

    the only difference between the road and MTB shimano front triggers is the road ones have the trimming feature.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    have you thought of buying a moped instead?
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    He'd buy a moped to only then decide he needs gears.
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    have you tried pressing F1?
  • Manc33
    Manc33 Posts: 2,157
    The only way this could "work for many people" would be if the components magically changed their properties and just fit together.

    I am only clarifying that left MTB trigger shifters don't work properly with flat bar front mechs. Thats because the mech doesn't have a MTB pull or a road pull, but its own flat bar pull.

    Yes it works - in a makeshift way. You're not meant to have a load of cable loose. You have to shove the lever half way before there's any mech movement, then it changes perfectly and the spacing is right. Its whether you will put up with giving it a shove then a bit more of a shove to change from granny to middle.

    I can't be arsed with it, so I got a proper flat bar shifter in the end, the R440 - that is many levels of groupset below the MTB shifter I was using. I know there's the R770 left shifter but I can't find it available anywhere as a separate shifter and it is going to cost about £45 anyway.

    What I want is an 8-speed M950/M951 shifter pod, so I'm not stuck using a slightly inferior M748. :P If anyone here has got one I will pay £40 for one in reasonably good condition undamaged. That is a bloody high price for one of those shifter pods! They are rare as hell. You can find them with brake levers from time to time, but the separate pods seem harder to find. I think I have a photo of one or was that a dream. I would think a pair would go at about £50 so my offer of £40 for one pod is crazy... but if I see one of those on sale, thats it. Anything else I don't care but shifters... I want the best.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Manc33 wrote:

    I am only clarifying that left MTB trigger shifters don't work properly with flat bar front mechs. Thats because the mech doesn't have a MTB pull or a road pull, but its own flat bar pull.

    There are only 2 pull ratios that I am aware of - 1:1 or 2:1 - I'm not aware of any FD or front shifter that doesn't operate on a 1:1 ratio.
  • Semantik
    Semantik Posts: 537
    I sympathise with your experience trying to get this right but there are inconsistencies in what you are saying between posts.
    You say THIS:
    Manc33 wrote:

    I have loose cable on the granny ring because the cable pull isn't right using a MTB shifter and R443 front mech, or don't you believe it? :?

    Yet earlier you said :
    Manc33 wrote:
    Found a makeshift fix using different trigger shifters, they're not even the same colour. :roll:

    Left shifter - SL-R440
    Front mech - FD-R443

    So you say you are using R440 shifter with R443 front mech? well that is not a 'makeshift fix', it will work fine if set up correctly and there should be absolutely no issues with loose cables in the granny ring. THAT shifter and THAT mech ARE compatible. No need to look at Shimano tech docs, just look here:

    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shim ... lsrc=aw.ds

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