Bike Handling in the Wet

nbalcombe

Right then, I've been road biking for about 20 months after being a long-time mountain biker. My first road bike was an Ebay special Trek 1000 which I rode all through the winter last year with no problems. Having decided that road biking was for me and having a fortuitous change of circumstances (my misses finally getting a job after being a perpetual student) it was time to upgrade the bike.

I'm now the proud owner of a Bianchi Infinito CV which I absolutely love. Now I appreciate that I have bought this at the wrong time of year but I'm so keen to get out on it, I'm riding in all conditions (except snow and ice).

I've noticed that on certain descents in varying degrees of wetness (no ice) the handling is a little scary. I had what can only be described as the equivalent of a 'tank-slapper' on a perfectly straight little drop that was clean of mud and only a little damp. Luckily the bike control I've gained from mountain biking has kept me upright so far. I'm starting to get a little tired of going sideways into corners though.

Is this a Bike thing in that the bike is set up to be twitchy? Is that common to all lightweight carbon frames? What about tyres? I've taken the Rubino Pro Slicks off and replaced them with some Michelin Lithion 2s, which has made more of a psychological difference I think.

I'm worried that my confidence has taken a knock now and I approach every descent with a certain amount of trepidation. I'm hoping that once the roads dry out in the summer I'll relax a little.

arthur_scrimshaw

Try wider tyres if you can, drop tyre pressures, slow down and plan your line, try not to give it the grip of death if a tank slapper starts.

nbalcombe

Thanks for the reply.

I'm riding 25c tyres at the moment, would you suggest going wider than that?

What sort of pressures should I try? I'm worried about getting pinch punctures...

Matthewfalle

As above - relax grip, relax arms, neck, shoulders, back, legs and sphincter. Being tense will jeff up any bike (powered or pedal) handling.

Keep your head up high, look where you are going - you will go where your nose is going.
Plan lines well in advance, no sudden movements, brake early and evenly.

Do more mile, confidence will come.

nbalcombe

I would say that I'm fairly relaxed on the bike as it is, the MTB has helped me with this. It's more the fact that the difference in handling between the Trek and the Bianchi is so noticeable. I'm not going any quicker on the Bianchi either, probably slower as I'm so wary of the lack of grip.

arthur_scrimshaw

nbalcombe wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

I'm riding 25c tyres at the moment, would you suggest going wider than that?

What sort of pressures should I try? I'm worried about getting pinch punctures...

25c would be probably the max you can fit. How much you reduce pressure is dependent on rider weight, you could probably get away with 10 - 20%?

smoggysteve

Infinito is borderline with 28mm tyres. Any that tend to be slighty wider than specified will rub on the back of the chainstays where they meet the BB.

comsense

nbalcombe wrote:

I'm not going any quicker on the Bianchi either, probably slower as I'm so wary of the lack of grip.

Stand beside your bike. Lean it over while holding bars and saddle and try to push it away from you. When you realise how much grip it has without your weight you will have more confidence. Worked for me anyway.

sloppyschleckonds

I'd be tempted to Slow down

Matthewfalle

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

I'd be tempted to Slow down

No. Wrong answer. Only cowards and girls slow down.

Schoie81

comsense wrote:

nbalcombe wrote:

I'm not going any quicker on the Bianchi either, probably slower as I'm so wary of the lack of grip.

Stand beside your bike. Lean it over while holding bars and saddle and try to push it away from you. When you realise how much grip it has without your weight you will have more confidence. Worked for me anyway.

I think that's a great idea! I've often thought when cornering that there is probably a lot more grip than I fear there is and I'm being over cautious - but I could only think that the day I fall off is the day I'll find out where the limit is! Doing that will certainly give a bit more of an idea! I'm going to try it!!

cougie

I've never noticed anything different down hill.

Uphill on steep climbs yeah loss of traction - and cornering you need to watch - as you do with road markings or drain covers.

Is it possible it was just windier than normal ?

crikey

Classic mistake often reinforced by Sherwen and Ligget is that mountain biker = good bike handler.

Take away the big tyres, the lower pressure, the relaxed geometry, the suspension, the wide bars, the big disc brakes and you start to find out a lot about your skill level when riding a twitchy, narrow, high pressured, weight forward, seat up kind of machine.

It's a different beast and will take a bit of practice to learn where the edge is.

nbalcombe

crikey wrote:

Classic mistake often reinforced by Sherwen and Ligget is that mountain biker = good bike handler.

Take away the big tyres, the lower pressure, the relaxed geometry, the suspension, the wide bars, the big disc brakes and you start to find out a lot about your skill level when riding a twitchy, narrow, high pressured, weight forward, seat up kind of machine.

It's a different beast and will take a bit of practice to learn where the edge is.

I don't disagree with what you've said. My question remains though, why does the Bianchi feel so much more unstable (and slower) than my 15year old Trek on the descents in the wet?

crikey

Difficult to say without looking at both bikes; are they set up exactly the same?

Could be a fundamental difference in angles, in tyres, in pressures, in handlebar widths, in saddle set back and so on.

I would suggest that the bike you've got most time on will be the bike you feel most at home on and will therefore feel most stable, but I could be and often am wrong.

My cross bike is more user friendly than my roadie; it's got wider, higher bars and I run the seat 1 cm lower, but I really don't notice the difference enough to be sure of it.

Edit: It could also be a bit of the 'best bike so don't bin it' thing creeping in. I certainly crept along on my best bike for a couple of months until it got scuffed and worn and now it gets treated just as badly as everything else!

nbalcombe

crikey wrote:

I would suggest that the bike you've got most time on will be the bike you feel most at home on and will therefore feel most stable, but I could be and often am wrong.

Seems sensible, it is a new bike and a much larger frame (the old one was too small in hindsight). I'm still very much getting used to it.

crikey wrote:

Edit: It could also be a bit of the 'best bike so don't bin it' thing creeping in. I certainly crept along on my best bike for a couple of months until it got scuffed and worn and now it gets treated just as badly as everything else!

Definitely something in this.

crikey

If you are used to riding a mountain bike, try a little 'playing in the car park' kind of thing on your roadie; the odd rolling stoppie at low speed helps to dial in the strength of your brakes, an occasional very gentle rear wheel skid helps to show the point at which traction disappears, and messing about on low speed steep climbs by lifting the front wheel can help demonstrate balance points.

As I said, they are different beasts and need you to play about and gain experience using it before pushing the envelope in terms of performance.

kajjal

nbalcombe wrote:

crikey wrote:

Classic mistake often reinforced by Sherwen and Ligget is that mountain biker = good bike handler.

Take away the big tyres, the lower pressure, the relaxed geometry, the suspension, the wide bars, the big disc brakes and you start to find out a lot about your skill level when riding a twitchy, narrow, high pressured, weight forward, seat up kind of machine.

It's a different beast and will take a bit of practice to learn where the edge is.

I don't disagree with what you've said. My question remains though, why does the Bianchi feel so much more unstable (and slower) than my 15year old Trek on the descents in the wet?

Mountain bikes are very stable, give a much smoother rider (bigger tyres / suspension) have a lot more grip and better braking power / modulation due to hydraulic disc brakes. This means even in mud or the wet on road you can brake harder / later , take faster lines knowing if the bike breaks from under you it is very likely you can dab the brakes and get it back again.

In comparison on wet muddy roads road bikes are not as stable. Also if a road bike breaks from under you the lower grip, less stability and not having disc brakes means you have to be very quick to get it back again. Better brakes, a stable riding position and decent tyres help but a road bike while smooth will never be as stable as a mountain bike. The last time my road bike broke from under me it was more luck than judgement I just stood it up with the brakes on and came to a stop sideways on.

kajjal

I would compare the setup of the Trek to your new bike and see what is different in the riding position. It may just be you were used to your old bike or your new bike needs the setup tweaking to match your old. Unless you are lucky most road bikes take a few weeks if tweaking to get the setup / riding position correct. Mountain bikes in comparison are very easy to setup as you are not in a fixed position.

rolf_f

nbalcombe wrote:

I've taken the Rubino Pro Slicks off and replaced them with some Michelin Lithion 2s, which has made more of a psychological difference I think.

Don't count on it being only psychological. Some folk love Rubino Pro Slicks but plenty, myself included, find them treacherous in the wet. I've even come off whilst using them while riding at a constant speed in a straight line! Do a search on them in this forum and you'll find plenty of evidence both of enthusiasm and terror!

handful

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the difference in technique between road and mtb. I do both and with a mtb you keep the weight balanced on both feet with the pedals level whereas on a road bike it's the outside foot down and the weight distribution is completely different. This explains road descending fairly well, maybe give some of this a try next time and see how you get on. http://www.wenzelcoaching.com/blog/cornering-descending-without-anxiety-slowing-it-down-to-speed-it-up/

Speckled

I love decending, i also come from a mtb background and just want to get to he bottom of a hill as fast as possible.

But when its wet/icy i just dont take the risk, it only takes a few wet leaves or fuel on the road and you're off.

Save the fast decents for the dry days, wet ones just clock some miles up

simon_masterson

Matthewfalle wrote:

As above - relax grip, relax arms, neck, shoulders, back, legs and sphincter. Being tense will jeff up any bike (powered or pedal) handling.

Keep your head up high, look where you are going - you will go where your nose is going.
Plan lines well in advance, no sudden movements, brake early and evenly.

Do more mile, confidence will come.

This. Spills do sometimes happen, but some cyclists that come off in wet conditions are doing silly things - if you're swaying around out of the saddle and zigzagging across road iron, oil and grit, cornering like a crit racer and descending like you're doing an alpine stage, you may get into a spot of bother. Exaggeration, obviously, but riding safely in the wet is very much achievable if you ride sensibly and avoid hazards; even if you're using tyres don't grip very well.

keith57

Try some better tyres? The Michelins seem to be a budget tyre with an emphasis on longevity. Stickier rubber will wear quicker, but will corner better, especially in the wet. I ride Continental 4000s all year round, great grip, wet or dry, on all my bikes, all sizes too, 21 tubs, 23 and 25 clinchers.

iron-clover

I find it depends on the conditions most often- I've had what you're describing fairly frequently, and I find it can be difficult to predict when it'll happen just by looking at the road- although its always when the road it damp/ wet though. However, sometimes on the same descents when its wet they are fine.

The rubino pro slick tyres have some negative reviews for when things get damp, and I know mine seemed to come up a little narrow as well, but I did find them to be perfectly fine in all conditions if the pressure was dropped a little from normal. They didn't have the grip of a true racing tyre but then you can't expect them to. They also seemed to hold up against wear and cuts impressively well, but then that could have been pure luck.

At the end of the day it'll all be about a combination of experience and confidence- I personally tend to take it a little easier than most on the twisty descents because I know how quickly (and badly) it can all go wrong, and I know I'll still beat them to the top of the next hill regardless :P

florerider

Not sure you should be getting this feeling between those 2 road bikes, are they the same size - esp wheelbase and stem length?

What tyres on the Trek? How about swapping over the front wheel for a quick ride and seeing if the Bianchi feels different?

mercia_man

Confidence in a bike's handling can be an elusive thing. Once you've had a speed wobble or come off on a wet bend, it's difficult to feel confident in your bike again.

Certain combinations of rider weight, bike geometry, adjustment etc can cause the tank slapper style wobble you have described. I once had a series of wobbles, checked my bike out and found the tension in my non drive side rear spokes had gone really slack. Tightening them up and getting the wheel evenly again between chainstays improved things. Lighter riders, such as me, are more prone to such wobbles on both bicycles and motorcycles, in my experience. I once suffered a terrible wobble caused by the bow wind from an oncoming lorry as I was descending at 40-plus.

As for your lack of tyre grip, I agree with others who suggest getting a sticky race tyre to improve things. I found Michelin Pro 3 Race Service Course gave great wet grip. I guess the newer Pro 4 is similar in that respect. I have also found to my cost that running at too high a pressure gives less grip. You don't have to run your tyres at the max figure given on the sidewall. Wider tyres can also help.

Frame geometry is obviously an issue. A mountain bike with its slack angles and long wheelbase will feel stable descending compared with the twitchiness of a race replica road bike. However, the Infinito by all accounts is a not a particularly nervous steep angled racer. It is more of an endurance bike and reviewers and owners all seem to praise its handling. I know from my own bikes that only slight changes in geometry make a huge difference in descending stability.

But the OP's main concern seems to be lack of grip in the wet. I think the advice given to build up experience at wet riding, being careful to avoid gravel, wet leaves etc and to try some stickier tyres at lower pressures would be the way to build confidence.

nbalcombe

Thanks for all your advice guys (and girls?), lots of things to try. I'll start with lowering the pressures on my current tyres and look to getting a better set in the new year.

GGBiker

Agree with those who say it's a tyre issue, get some continental 4 seasons on there and I suspect the problem will be gone. No point having a great bike with cheap tyres, not a good place to save pennies.

thegreatdivide

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

I'd be tempted to Slow down

This. Especially in winter. There's no need to go balls out, fall off and spend the good months with a broken wrist or smashed collar bone. Long steady miles is what's required :-)

IShaggy

Handling shouldn't be hugely different from your Trek. Check that the bike is set-up correctly. If the headset or front wheel hub is loose then it may explain the death wobble and the lack of confidence when coenering.