Switched from 23mm to 30mm tyres- bad move?

cookeeemonster

So after 2 rear wheel punctures yesterday I did what I always do when I get a series of punctures quickly - threw my toys out the pram and deceided THEY MUST BE REPLACED!!! (ok not replaced, but put in storage until May).

So dug out the 28mm marathon pluses I had in my garage...and though I couldn't get the funkers on a couple weeks back when I tried, youtube reminded me of a couple of tricks to use and they were went on fine (sort of, but really wouldn't want to do it at the side of a road...)

And my journey today with the slightly wider tyres and less pressure (75psi front, 90 back)? Wow that was hard work. Couldn't believe how sluggish the ride felt though to be honest - it was colder and windier than it has been and that could be a lot of it. Need to wait a few days to see if they do make that much difference.

They were barely more comfortable than the 4 seasons at 95psi front, 110psi rear (I'm 14 stone so go near to the max psi on the tyre) so maybe its just a case of accepting my route is very bumpy (crap bumpy cycle path for 5 miles before I hit rubbish roads).

Then I checked how much the marathons weigh...in my head they weigh around 510g...nope. 740g each. Funk me.

So the 420g that the 32mm randonners weigh aint so bad after all.

I'll still give it a couple of days before I decide as ribble only have one tyre in 32mm anyway (and I'm waiting for wiggle to price match - but they only have one tyre left too)

bompington

Veronese68 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think the main mistake I made last round was to go for a diesel... didn't know about the DPF at the time and it's been nothing but hassle.

I think if you're not doing big miles a diesel is definitely not worth it.

Definitely this. Since 2003 I've had 3 diesel cars that I've done over 150,000 miles in, and never had a problem with DPFs. But they get bunged up if you only ever do short journeys & low mileage. Add that to the higher purchase costs of a diesel and it really doesn't make any sense to get a diesel for low mileage.

arthur_scrimshaw

antonyfromoz wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

antonyfromoz wrote:

I am looking at getting some bigger tyres than the 28mm ones I have on my commuter bike at the moment and have been looking at the panaracer range as well as the vittorias. The new 32mm gravel kings look good to me or the
32mm ribmo but has anyone had any experience with either tyre?

I like Panaracer... I have a set of Pasela 32 which look enormous... very plush ride but less puncture proof than the Randonneur

Thanks Ugo, I have never used panaracer tyres before but these two looked okay - although both are more expensive than the vittorias in 32mm.

I'm running 25 gumwall paselas on my steel bike and have got a pair of 28's, they are really nice light tyres but a bit fragile especially in the sidewalls.

arthur_scrimshaw

meanredspider wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Cars and their fluids like oil etc will degrade / leak of the course of a year regardless of if the car is driven or not. For many the once a year service is the only time a car gets looked at.

Modern lubricants don't degrade much (when not "working") and you'd certainly hope they don't leak.

Most new modern cars also shouldn't need much looking at other than checking over the tyres and fluid levels. The current driving test at least includes these "skills".

@Ugo - you'd be surprised how big the 500 is inside if you've not been in one - more practical than a Mini. A Punto is another option. You're lucky you can't afford a MiTo - I'm a confirmed Alfista (16 and counting) and I hated the MiTo with a passion. The 500 (with half the power I had in the MiTo) is a much better drive and far more fun.

Bear in mind the the 500 is a Panda in a different body shell and price tag to match. That said I really enjoy bombing around in the Panda, it's great fun for a 1.1 engine. The car I sold was a Alfa 156 veloce, lovely car but juicy, my favourite Alfa was a 75 twinspark veloce I had back in early 90's, rear wheel drive with limnited slip diff I think, quality of the interior was a bit pants and could not get used to the position of the electric window buttons which were either side of the rear view mirror on the roof.

veronese68

CookeeeMonster wrote:

...
So dug out the 28mm marathon pluses I had in my garage...
... Wow that was hard work. Couldn't believe how sluggish the ride felt though to be honest ...

Then I checked how much the marathons weigh...in my head they weigh around 510g...nope. 740g each. Funk me.

So the 420g that the 32mm randonners weigh aint so bad after all.

Well done getting the thread back on topic.
Marathon pluses are dreadful. I went from them to Gatorskins, which were much better. Then on to Randonneur Cross Pros which were another huge leap forwards. You could almost say they were a revelation in how good a robust tyre can feel. Needn't have bother with the Cross version, the regular Randonneur Pro probably would have been better.

bompington

Well I've been on 23mm GP4000s for yonks now, mostly on knobbly, muddy country lanes. Never felt like there was a problem with grip, and despite my somewhat excessive body mass the only issues I've had in about 4 years are one blowout from hitting a stone at 50mph, and one bent rim from the one pothole in years I failed to see.
But I've just joined the "road fatty" gang, making the jump all the way up to... 25mm. I'll see if that makes any noticeable difference.

arthur_scrimshaw

Veronese68 wrote:

CookeeeMonster wrote:

...
So dug out the 28mm marathon pluses I had in my garage...
... Wow that was hard work. Couldn't believe how sluggish the ride felt though to be honest ...

Then I checked how much the marathons weigh...in my head they weigh around 510g...nope. 740g each. Funk me.

So the 420g that the 32mm randonners weigh aint so bad after all.

Well done getting the thread back on topic.
Marathon pluses are dreadful. I went from them to Gatorskins, which were much better. Then on to Randonneur Cross Pros which were another huge leap forwards. You could almost say they were a revelation in how good a robust tyre can feel. Needn't have bother with the Cross version, the regular Randonneur Pro probably would have been better.

Wrist firmly slapped

gbsahne001

bompington wrote:

Well I've been on 23mm GP4000s for yonks now, mostly on knobbly, muddy country lanes. Never felt like there was a problem with grip, and despite my somewhat excessive body mass the only issues I've had in about 4 years are one blowout from hitting a stone at 50mph, and one bent rim from the one pothole in years I failed to see.
But I've just joined the "road fatty" gang, making the jump all the way up to... 25mm. I'll see if that makes any noticeable difference.

I don't think anyone's ever complained about the lack of grip on the GP4000s, merely the short life and high puncture rate that a lot of people have experienced.

itboffin

ordered, if they're terrible i.e. my wife complains you ugo will be put on the naughty list along with the MIA lights NAME :evil:

remember Santa is watching you all

bompington

gbsahne wrote:

bompington wrote:

Well I've been on 23mm GP4000s for yonks now, mostly on knobbly, muddy country lanes. Never felt like there was a problem with grip, and despite my somewhat excessive body mass the only issues I've had in about 4 years are one blowout from hitting a stone at 50mph, and one bent rim from the one pothole in years I failed to see.
But I've just joined the "road fatty" gang, making the jump all the way up to... 25mm. I'll see if that makes any noticeable difference.

I don't think anyone's ever complained about the lack of grip on the GP4000s, merely the short life and high puncture rate that a lot of people have experienced.

I didn't really make it clear enough - my experience is so far from that, I find it hard to tally with what the "GP Haterz club" say. 4 years (or is it 5, I can't remember), 3 pairs of tyres, >12,000 miles, only 1 fall ever that was due to losing grip on anything other than ice (it was probably diesel) and about 6 punctures in all. Like I said, mostly on rough back lanes - I don't know how many miles of teeth-rattling descents that is, but it must be many hundreds at the least.

markhewitt1978

bompington wrote:

Well I've been on 23mm GP4000s for yonks now, mostly on knobbly, muddy country lanes. Never felt like there was a problem with grip, and despite my somewhat excessive body mass the only issues I've had in about 4 years are one blowout from hitting a stone at 50mph, and one bent rim from the one pothole in years I failed to see.
But I've just joined the "road fatty" gang, making the jump all the way up to... 25mm. I'll see if that makes any noticeable difference.

I think the GP4000S 23mm are actually 24mm and the 25mm are actually 26mm.

Certainly they run quite a bit wider than the GP 4 Seasons I'm using.

I put the 25mm GP 4 Seasons next to the 23mm GP4000S I had on another set of rims (the same width rims) and couldn't see any difference

gbsahne001

bompington wrote:

gbsahne wrote:

bompington wrote:

Well I've been on 23mm GP4000s for yonks now, mostly on knobbly, muddy country lanes. Never felt like there was a problem with grip, and despite my somewhat excessive body mass the only issues I've had in about 4 years are one blowout from hitting a stone at 50mph, and one bent rim from the one pothole in years I failed to see.
But I've just joined the "road fatty" gang, making the jump all the way up to... 25mm. I'll see if that makes any noticeable difference.

I don't think anyone's ever complained about the lack of grip on the GP4000s, merely the short life and high puncture rate that a lot of people have experienced.

I didn't really make it clear enough - my experience is so far from that, I find it hard to tally with what the "GP Haterz club" say. 4 years (or is it 5, I can't remember), 3 pairs of tyres, >12,000 miles, only 1 fall ever that was due to losing grip on anything other than ice (it was probably diesel) and about 6 punctures in all. Like I said, mostly on rough back lanes - I don't know how many miles of teeth-rattling descents that is, but it must be many hundreds at the least.

Don't get me wrong I loved the GP4000s from a rolling and grip point of view but I got less than a years worth of riding out of them with about 3000 miles for the pair and by the end of that, the rubber had perished on the sidewall and cracks on the surface of the tyre so big that I could see my fingers through them.

Semantik

Well I said I would report back on how I got on with the fat tyres.
The honest answer is not very well.
Out of the 47 times I have done that particular 8 mile route to work, this morning's ride was only the 46th fastest.
Ride home was not as bad but in the bottom quarter.
May not be entirely the fault of the tyres as temperatures were at or near freezing, but regardless of this and despite the usual amount of exertion being transferred to the pedals by the legs , the wheels did not turn as fast as they normally do.
Did the tyres feel better on the road? Yes,they smoothed things out a bit but probably not enough to want to keep them on.
Shame, as they have nice reflective strips on the sidewalls where most 23mm tyres do not.
Going to stick with them for rest of the week but they may well be relegated to the hybrid by next week.

cookeeemonster

Ok...final question as I have my wiggle price match code...32 or 35mm?

It seems the 32 come up more like a 28...thoughts people?

bendertherobot

35mm. You lose nothing. You may gain something, even if only marginal. (in terms of comfort)

gbsahne001

another vote for 35, next time round that's what I'll be getting, as the 32s do come up more like 28s (as you note)

bendertherobot

I had the 32's. They were, as stated, quite thin. Currently on 33c cx tyres. Nicely wider. Definitely more comfortable.

cookeeemonster

35's ordered, cheers peeps

ugo.santalucia

Semantik wrote:

Well I said I would report back on how I got on with the fat tyres.
The honest answer is not very well.
Out of the 47 times I have done that particular 8 mile route to work, this morning's ride was only the 46th fastest.
Ride home was not as bad but in the bottom quarter.
May not be entirely the fault of the tyres as temperatures were at or near freezing, but regardless of this and despite the usual amount of exertion being transferred to the pedals by the legs , the wheels did not turn as fast as they normally do.
Did the tyres feel better on the road? Yes,they smoothed things out a bit but probably not enough to want to keep them on.
Shame, as they have nice reflective strips on the sidewalls where most 23mm tyres do not.
Going to stick with them for rest of the week but they may well be relegated to the hybrid by next week.

Academic... 47 times means you have started timing yourself last summer, I suspect. As the temperature drops, two things happen:

1) The air carries more moisture, which increases your aerodynamic drag significantly. Although water is lighter than other atmospheric gases in terms of molecular weight, unlike nitrogen and oxygen it travels in clusters (hence why it is a vapour and not a gas), which makes it more dense.

2) There is less kinetic energy in the air, which makes it harder to shift, hence increased aerodynamic drag.

Aerodynamic drag superseedes roughly 10 times rolling resistance coefficient, so it's always the first culprit...

In the absence of tail wind, most PB on a time trial are achieved in summer, dry days with relatively low barometic pressure (summer gloomy day is perfect)... these factors typically matter more than tyre choice.
It is also the reason why people find their "summer bike" to be faster than their "winter bike".. if they swapped them, they would probably measure the opposite.

Semantik

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Semantik wrote:

Well I said I would report back on how I got on with the fat tyres.
The honest answer is not very well.
Out of the 47 times I have done that particular 8 mile route to work, this morning's ride was only the 46th fastest.
Ride home was not as bad but in the bottom quarter.
May not be entirely the fault of the tyres as temperatures were at or near freezing, but regardless of this and despite the usual amount of exertion being transferred to the pedals by the legs , the wheels did not turn as fast as they normally do.
Did the tyres feel better on the road? Yes,they smoothed things out a bit but probably not enough to want to keep them on.
Shame, as they have nice reflective strips on the sidewalls where most 23mm tyres do not.
Going to stick with them for rest of the week but they may well be relegated to the hybrid by next week.

Academic... 47 times means you have started timing yourself last summer, I suspect. As the temperature drops, two things happen:

1) The air carries more moisture, which increases your aerodynamic drag significantly. Although water is lighter than other atmospheric gases in terms of molecular weight, unlike nitrogen and oxygen it travels in clusters (hence why it is a vapour and not a gas), which makes it more dense.

2) There is less kinetic energy in the air, which makes it harder to shift, hence increased aerodynamic drag.

Aerodynamic drag superseedes roughly 10 times rolling resistance coefficient, so it's always the first culprit...

In the absence of tail wind, most PB on a time trial are achieved in summer, dry days with relatively low barometic pressure (summer gloomy day is perfect)... these factors typically matter more than tyre choice.
It is also the reason why people find their "summer bike" to be faster than their "winter bike".. if they swapped them, they would probably measure the opposite.

All the above no doubt valid HOWEVER...

I ripped the tractor tyres off this morning before work and put the 23's back on. I was over 5 minutes quicker getting to work than yesterday. Like I had wings.

DrLex

CookeeeMonster wrote:

35's ordered, cheers peeps

CM, can you post the tyre clearance on your new steed? 40 tops?

roger_merriman

Semantik wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Semantik wrote:

Well I said I would report back on how I got on with the fat tyres.
The honest answer is not very well.
Out of the 47 times I have done that particular 8 mile route to work, this morning's ride was only the 46th fastest.
Ride home was not as bad but in the bottom quarter.
May not be entirely the fault of the tyres as temperatures were at or near freezing, but regardless of this and despite the usual amount of exertion being transferred to the pedals by the legs , the wheels did not turn as fast as they normally do.
Did the tyres feel better on the road? Yes,they smoothed things out a bit but probably not enough to want to keep them on.
Shame, as they have nice reflective strips on the sidewalls where most 23mm tyres do not.
Going to stick with them for rest of the week but they may well be relegated to the hybrid by next week.

Academic... 47 times means you have started timing yourself last summer, I suspect. As the temperature drops, two things happen:

1) The air carries more moisture, which increases your aerodynamic drag significantly. Although water is lighter than other atmospheric gases in terms of molecular weight, unlike nitrogen and oxygen it travels in clusters (hence why it is a vapour and not a gas), which makes it more dense.

2) There is less kinetic energy in the air, which makes it harder to shift, hence increased aerodynamic drag.

Aerodynamic drag superseedes roughly 10 times rolling resistance coefficient, so it's always the first culprit...

In the absence of tail wind, most PB on a time trial are achieved in summer, dry days with relatively low barometic pressure (summer gloomy day is perfect)... these factors typically matter more than tyre choice.
It is also the reason why people find their "summer bike" to be faster than their "winter bike".. if they swapped them, they would probably measure the opposite.

All the above no doubt valid HOWEVER...

I ripped the tractor tyres off this morning before work and put the 23's back on. I was over 5 minutes quicker getting to work than yesterday. Like I had wings.

um that's got to be palacibo effect. most of the performance enhancements tend to be marginal gains.

ugo.santalucia

Semantik wrote:

All the above no doubt valid HOWEVER...

I ripped the tractor tyres off this morning before work and put the 23's back on. I was over 5 minutes quicker getting to work than yesterday. Like I had wings.

Bad tyres then... it's not the weight though, they probably have a big elastic hysteresis and dreadful rolling resistance. You can get tough winter tyres in that size which are not slow... of course they generally have a RRP of 30 quid or so, rather than 15

Semantik

The bike felt good again. I put a spare front wheel on with an Ultremo R1 fitted.It was buzzing and singing on the tarmac. Even taking into account varying stop times at lights/junctions over the two days I'm still confident there was a real world difference of about 2 to 3 minutes. That's about 25 minutes per week. Nearly 40 extra hours per year pedalling. For nothing.
Take the point tho' -they were not the greatest tyres available in 30mm.

slowbike

placebo effect - yer right ...

32mm make a huge difference - especially at the budget end of the range - put a good pair of narrow slicks on and you'll go much faster - assuming that the road surface isn't rubble!

I have a pair of 32mm slicks on that would ride through anything without thinking - but they're rubbish for speed, it just drags.

ugo.santalucia

Semantik wrote:

That's about 25 minutes per week. Nearly 40 extra hours per year pedalling.

Not on planet Earth

dhope

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Semantik wrote:

That's about 25 minutes per week. Nearly 40 extra hours per year pedalling.

Not on planet Earth

cookeeemonster

DrLex wrote:

CookeeeMonster wrote:

35's ordered, cheers peeps

CM, can you post the tyre clearance on your new steed? 40 tops?

Not sure to be honest. They sell a version with 40c tyres as standard, wouldn't surprise me if they took more, there's certainly a fair amount of clearance

cookeeemonster

Ok, got my 35 really 32 tyres today...forgot to order bigger inner tubes so will need to pop out an get some...then I'll add my review

As to the op, when I switched from 4seasons to marathon plus I trebled the rolling weight of the tyres and yeah, the bike felt more sluggish...though I do a hell of a lot of start/stopping an racing away from lights so I'll always feel it more.

My times on the marathon plus were better than a lot of the times on the 4seasons (

Conditions play a big role!

In fact last year I got a bargain winter bike. A charge filter steel cx bike...which I bought the marathon pluses for. In hindsight we're talking about a 13-14kg bike, with a fair amount in the very heavy wheels an tyres.

Initalially I didn't notice any difference in my times or average speed compared to my just under 10kg bianchi road bike...but as the winter wore on there was plenty of weeks when I felt wasted by the end of the 3rd day, despite changing jobs recently to a shorter 25 milie round trip commute (swopped the embankment racetrack for start/stop city lights and traffic though...)

Anyway...went back to the bianchi in May, was blown away how easier it felt. And my average speed? Rarely more than 0.8mph to be honest. Lighter bikes etc do make a difference and I recently bought a lighter one...but for city commutes...it don't make as much difference as you think. Big placebo effect for new bikes too

DrLex

CookeeeMonster wrote:

[...] They sell a version with 40c tyres as standard, wouldn't surprise me if they took more, there's certainly a fair amount of clearance

That's great- thanks. I'd not seen that option.