the effect of higher cadence

poynedexter

I'm doing a few different turbo routines plus road work with road racing beginning in feb/ march as the initial target. one of the turbo routines is this:

5 min warm up @ 90 rpm
10 min ramp to 140 bpm @ 100 rpm
60 min @140 bpm @100- 105 rpm
5 min warm down

140 bpm is the top of my Z2, and I use the gears/resistance to control the HR.

my question is, what training effect does this routine give? its by no means easy for me to do this purely based on the rpm. I'm not stressing my HR but what is being stressed to make make this a tough session? I find it slightly mentally tough to maintain the rpm, but the next morning my legs feel tired. hill repeats, HIIT, long road spins, gym work don't give the buzz to the legs like this.

so what is it about high rpm, low torque, upper Z2.?

bolingbroke

Higher cadences are more taxing on the heart and lungs. Lower cadences are more taxing on the muscles.

If you are finding it difficult at the higher cadence and are recovering better from more anaerobic work it is probably a sign that your body favours sugar as a fuel over oxygen. Since there is a much greater supply of the later it is much more efficient to have a higher natural cadence (it varies between riders but 90+ is what you should aim for). Routines like the one you have built there should help you do this.

imposter2.0

Looks like a fairly pointless session, tbh. Train your effort - not your cadence.

mrwibble

buy a power meter, train with power

mistertommyt

I am no expert, but this is my take on it.

I am doing similar sessions at the moment. For me, these are pure base sessions that are training my heart (beating when full of blood as opposed to semi full at higher bpm) and my ability to fuel from fat instead of glycogen. The increase in cadence, which should be more about spinning faster than you're normally comfortable, I treat as training form. A high cadence places less stress on muscles and more on the engine, which should leave your legs fresher when racing.

This is a good read.
http://www.flammerouge.je/factsheets/heartbeats.htm

BeaconRuth

poynedexter wrote:

my question is, what training effect does this routine give?

Good question, and if you don't know the answer perhaps you shouldn't be doing it.

It's always good for a road racer to be capable of pedalling quite fast with a relaxed style and 'supplesse' but whether there's any benefit to spending 60mins pedalling at 100-105rpm and whether there's any point in doing it at such a low power output is pretty debatable.

I can't seem a good reason for prescribing such a session. There would be better development of your aerobic metabolism from working harder and you could easily do 5-minute periods within any session at higher cadences if you want to develop supplesse.

Ruth

BeaconRuth

mistertommyt wrote:

For me, these are pure base sessions that are training my heart (beating when full of blood as opposed to semi full at higher bpm) and my ability to fuel from fat instead of glycogen.

He'd train those things better working a bit harder though.

A high cadence places less stress on muscles and more on the engine, which should leave your legs fresher when racing.

But he's not racing until Feb/March. He doesn't need fresh legs now.

Ruth

bolingbroke

BeaconRuth wrote:

A high cadence places less stress on muscles and more on the engine, which should leave your legs fresher when racing.

But he's not racing until Feb/March. He doesn't need fresh legs now.

The idea of it is to make a permanent improvement in your natural cadence with an aim of riding 90+ rpm at FTP.

Having said that you can do cadence drills as part of harder sessions which is what I do. The OP's routine is pretty low effort.

mistertommyt

Yes, I didn't make that clear enough. Getting used to riding at higher cadence now in order to help in races further down the line.

I'm interested in the comments about this z2/3 work being too low in terms of intensity. Isn't this exactly the time of year to be riding at low intensity? Creating a solid base on which to build.

BeaconRuth

mistertommyt wrote:

I'm interested in the comments about this z2/3 work being too low in terms of intensity. Isn't this exactly the time of year to be riding at low intensity? Creating a solid base on which to build.

Yes, but assuming that 140bpm for the OP equates to a very moderate endurance pace, he could be doing that for four hours continuously. Generally, for amateurs fitting training into busy lives, spending only an hour at a moderate endurance pace is not the best use of time. It's possible to ride a bit harder for an hour without overdoing it and still be building a "solid base".

Ruth

bolingbroke

mistertommyt wrote:

Yes, I didn't make that clear enough. Getting used to riding at higher cadence now in order to help in races further down the line.

I'm interested in the comments about this z2/3 work being too low in terms of intensity. Isn't this exactly the time of year to be riding at low intensity? Creating a solid base on which to build.

Ideally yes but it requires long amounts of time. An hour long session is too short for Zone 2. You would be better off doing sweet spot intervals just bellow threshold if you don't have the time for two hour+ rides.

poynedexter

thanks for the replies.

I think I need to put this session in the context of the time of year and all the other sessions I'm doing. I am doing and have been since sept (and a fair bit of racing in 2014):

mon: turbo intervals + gym
tues: off
wed: a mix of 2 hr spins inc 1 hr hill repeats, or 60 mile Z2
thurs: turbo intervals
fri: turbo recovery or 60 mile road Z2 solo
sat: easy club spin 60 miles
sun: steady club spin up to 100 miles.

after xmas the weekend work will change, but I want to develop or train leg speed, hence this session at 100rpm. I feel I do enough at higher heart rates without overextending (in winter). this low torque, low hr , high leg speed just feels weird after.

maybe it is a need to loosen up relax or smooth out the pedalling at 100+rpm but I'm no expert.

would shorter higher rpm intervals do just as well?

btw I struggle to log in to this site recently!!!

Lookyhere

Depending on if you turbo or do 60miles @ z2 that's like 17 to over 20hrs per week, I would nt bother with worrying about your cadence

BeaconRuth

poynedexter wrote:

.... but I want to develop or train leg speed, hence this session at 100rpm.....

maybe it is a need to loosen up relax or smooth out the pedalling at 100+rpm but I'm no expert.

would shorter higher rpm intervals do just as well?

Why do you want to "develop or train leg speed"? Why do you want to "loosen up relax or smooth out the pedalling at 100+rpm"? I'm not saying these might not be sensible aims in certain cases, but are these just vague ideas you've read in magazines? Have you actually identified that these are either weaknesses or priorities for the racing you plan to do?

Personally I'm not aware of any cycling discipline which requires riders to pedal at 100rpm+ for 60 minutes at a very low level of effort. Hence I wouldn't recommend doing it.

I suggest you properly identify the demands your races are going to place on you and how your technique and fitness do/do not meet those demands. Then decide what training sessions you need to do. It's putting the cart before the horse to start doing a training session and then try to work out if it's achieving anything of any benefit to you.

Ruth

mamba80

poynedexter wrote:

mon: turbo intervals + gym
tues: off
wed: a mix of 2 hr spins inc 1 hr hill repeats, or 60 mile Z2
thurs: turbo intervals
fri: turbo recovery or 60 mile road Z2 solo
sat: easy club spin 60 miles
sun: steady club spin up to 100 miles.

That adds up to a lot of hours, but if a 1 hr upper z2 turbo session @ 100 ish rpm (hardly a stratospheric cadence) is taxing, physically for you, then maybe your zones are wrong?.
as many have said, its a pointless session, esp considering the amount of easy miles you are doing on the weekends, where you could easily incorporate some high cadence intervals with in these rides, if you think you need to.

DeVlaeminck

I find on a wattbike 100 is about my default cadence if I'm up at or above threshold but in zone 2 I'd find it easier to spin slower against more resistance. I could see the effort of maintaining that cadence at a relatively low wattage and low resistance could be more wearing than just letting your legs find their own preferred cadence and resistance.

poynedexter

2014 weaknesses:
the ability to "race" after 55 miles in 70+ mile events. I was getting cramps at about 55 miles of attacking racing in april which improved greatly by july but I'd like to be ready earlier.
more 5 min power/ endurance to go with the breaks or climb faster over our hilly/ rolly courses.

hence the focus on base miles now along with mixed turbo sessions.

this eves 1 hr turbo was:

15 min warm up. 100 rpm mainly 140 + bpm
intervals 5 min on/off:
105 rpm with hr at 160, 170, 180, 182 (with gear change each interval)
recovery 100rpm with hr at 150, 160,165,165.
5 min warm down.

the first interval probably needs upped, but intervals 3 and 4 are proper hard. (max hr 190 in standing climbs)

the new year turbo work will be this with drills on the road too after 50 mile tempo rides.

how does this sound in terms of addressing weaknesses.?