New technology making usable stuff obsolete.

mamba80

CiB wrote:

If Di2 were really unreliable wouldn't the forums be full of threads asking how to fix the things or folk letting off steam about how this expensive pile of tat has failed for the umpteenth time? Not saying it's 100% reliable - nothing is, but the lack of whinging suggests that Shimano got it pretty right before going mainstream with it. Compare if you will the number of Garmin threads - how do I..., why doesn't it just work out of the box...? etc.

Dismissing something that's really quite good and that most people do recognise as an improvement, just because it might break, seems a bit odd personally.

the point is I don't want to the guy who has a long planned cycle trip wrecked cause the Di2 RD throws a wobbly - i.e. the guy on another thread who wanted to go to Ghent - despite all you techno freaks no one could help him out and he took the car...brilliant!
crashing aside, there is no way a mechanical set up would have the same effects........
almost every bike shop sells a compatible Shimano RD and at least one of your mates will have a RD and cable he could lend from another bike..... oh and I ve ridden eps and Di2 and they are great, effortless indeed, but I don't suffer from chronic weakness in my hands so can easily manage a few gear changes over any number of rides or distances, its just not a game changer.

Disc brakes are another matter, esp if you like factory wheels, where rims are just too expensive to be replaced, im guessing the modulation is so good that the lack of mechanic grip between tire and wet road isn't an issue but again time will tell.

What I want really need to know is why the heck were there over 1m VINYL record sales last year? what is all that about? maybe those down tube shifters will be making a return?

desweller

For me the tactile aspect of working with bowden cables and springs is much more attractive than plugging in a computer to diagnose a fault; it just doesn't have the same satisfaction. Lots of people aren't like that though; maintenance is a chore rather than a joy to many and I can see why Di2/EPS would be attractive to them.

Can't say I've ever had trouble stopping in the wet with modern brake pads like Swissstop and Koolstop. Usually doing my best not to lock the front and wash out. Not wearing out rims would be nice. I remember the old days with steel rims though; I used to pick up speed on descents with the levers pulled to the bars!

My next bike will be steel with bar-end shifters! There's loads of allegedly obsolete standards that you can still get; you can buy new 6-speed freewheels if you look hard enough.

CiB

DesWeller wrote:

For me the tactile aspect of working with bowden cables and springs is much more attractive than plugging in a computer to diagnose a fault; it just doesn't have the same satisfaction. Lots of people aren't like that though; maintenance is a chore rather than a joy to many and I can see why Di2/EPS would be attractive to them.

You can't help but smile at people who post this sort of thing, implying that Di2 is fine for people that can't do it or that there's something majestically rustic about toily-handed sons of the soil manfully cobbling together a mechanical rear mech to get going again. Stripping the bike down to its washers, cleaning it and reassembling it as new is a regular pleasure thanks. It so happens that mine ends up as a nice bike with Di2, unless it's the other bike in which case it becomes a nice bike with mechanical gears. It also happens that it's nicer to set the Di2 up and know that it'll work and that when I swap wheels the slight index adjustment that it needs is easily done as I set off up the road and that's it, job done. Being handy with a computer is nice too as it's another gadget to play with, checking it's ok, changing parameters if I fancy, updating it to have the latest version etc.

If that's not your bag fair do's, but knocking it for the sake of it comes across as a bit childish tbh. HTH.

On a wider point, the way things work now where designers & manufacturers can provide updates & improvements usually for free, instead of us having to return the item to the manufacturer or to buy a new replacement to get the latest version, I like that. Lots of people seem to have issues, oddly my stuff just seems to work, and keeps on working. Odd that.

simon_masterson

Bar Shaker wrote:

Down tube shifters were usable stuff that was made obsolete. People said STi shifters were overly complicated.

Personally I love seeing the innovations coming out.

In some ways, yes. In others, no. The combination of reliability, ease/lack (with friction) of maintenance and even weight makes them an attractive option for some bikes, and personally I like them. I also like rim brakes for similar reasons.

I think this illustrates the point well - technology moves on, the previously usable doesn't cease to be so, and the most technological solution isn't always the right one. I fully expect electronic shifting and pneumatic disc braking to trickle down through the road groupsets, and cycling will be better for it. I will also carry on enjoying frames made from 753, old Campag bits, Cinelli bars, shiny 3TTT Record quills...

DavidJB

Not read the replies but to the OP...I race a bike with campag record and rim brakes...I have both the means and the will to go electronic if I wanted but I tired it and preferred mechanical. In fact my current race bike came with DI and I took it off and put my Record on...so no unless you're a sucker for marketing you don't need to upgrade.

CiB

DavidJB wrote:

Not read the replies but to the OP...I race a bike with campag record and rim brakes...I have both the means and the will to go electronic if I wanted but I tired it and preferred mechanical. In fact my current race bike came with DI and I took it off and put my Record on...so no unless you're a sucker for marketing you don't need to upgrade.

Ah. So it's down to gullibility and personal failings now, choosing a type of g/set? Thanks for that insight [into your mind]. It's always beneficial to know who's got anything to say that's worth listening to, and who hasn't. Thanks for your errr.. contribution.

Priceless.

desweller

CiB wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

For me the tactile aspect of working with bowden cables and springs is much more attractive than plugging in a computer to diagnose a fault; it just doesn't have the same satisfaction. Lots of people aren't like that though; maintenance is a chore rather than a joy to many and I can see why Di2/EPS would be attractive to them.

You can't help but smile at people who post this sort of thing, implying that Di2 is fine for people that can't do it or that there's something majestically rustic about toily-handed sons of the soil manfully cobbling together a mechanical rear mech to get going again. Stripping the bike down to its washers, cleaning it and reassembling it as new is a regular pleasure thanks. It so happens that mine ends up as a nice bike with Di2, unless it's the other bike in which case it becomes a nice bike with mechanical gears. It also happens that it's nicer to set the Di2 up and know that it'll work and that when I swap wheels the slight index adjustment that it needs is easily done as I set off up the road and that's it, job done. Being handy with a computer is nice too as it's another gadget to play with, checking it's ok, changing parameters if I fancy, updating it to have the latest version etc.

If that's not your bag fair do's, but knocking it for the sake of it comes across as a bit childish tbh. HTH.

On a wider point, the way things work now where designers & manufacturers can provide updates & improvements usually for free, instead of us having to return the item to the manufacturer or to buy a new replacement to get the latest version, I like that. Lots of people seem to have issues, oddly my stuff just seems to work, and keeps on working. Odd that.

OK, OK, for non-technical types like yourself. But I'm an engineer, and the novelty of needing a computer to fix a machine wore thin about 15 years ago. I like to lay a bit of love on the metal.

CiB

Non-technical eh? I'm sure you've somehow worked that out based on what you think I wrote, but suit yourself, you just carry on justifying not using Di2 and we'll get on with enjoying the way it works. Using a PC to change the way it works is useful. I should have remembered that on the net, it's vital to use totally unambiguous legalise to avoid leaving posts open to responses like yours; the phrase 'gadget to play with' was obviously your in to having your little dig so clearly I should have been more on the ball there. Suffice to say that the option of changing the response times and the actions of the shifters is a very useful addition and one that a lot of people have made good use of, me included.

cougie

Blimey.

No need to get so defensive about new kit. I get that some people love it - thats fine.

My main point with DI2 is that my cables have never snapped in 30 years plus of riding.
Mate has the DI2 and in a few months of riding - he's had to ride home in one gear. Even if he hadnt had that problem - I wasnt going to bother switching. Never had to charge my bike before - I dont need the complication.

You cant compare it to phones - with phones you have to charge them. With bikes you don't have to go that route if you don't want to.

Happy cycling everyone.

CiB

cougie wrote:

Blimey.

No need to get so defensive about new kit. I get that some people love it - thats fine.

My main point with DI2 is that my cables have never snapped in 30 years plus of riding.
Mate has the DI2 and in a few months of riding - he's had to ride home in one gear. Even if he hadnt had that problem - I wasnt going to bother switching. Never had to charge my bike before - I dont need the complication.

You cant compare it to phones - with phones you have to charge them. With bikes you don't have to go that route if you don't want to.

Happy cycling everyone.

Gah. Someone comes on here having a jovial (?) pop at technology, a bit of debate stirs up which descends into the sort of tosh above - it's unreliable, it's for people who don't understand things properly and can't deal with man's gears etc - and standing up for it without wanting to go overboard claiming that it really does beat sliced bread, that's being 'defensive' about it?

Ok - here's my standpoint on it. I like technology, esp when it offers an improvement on what's gone before. It doesn't have to be a 'step change' as someone called it, just an improvement in a subjective or more clearly defined way. Di2 ticked all of those boxes for me so it went on the bike, the previous mechanical Ultegra g/set ended up on a spare frame that became the winter hack. That's a nice bike to ride as Ultegra is a decent g/set, but the Di2 is nicer in every respect except for the minor minor issue of it needing a charge every few months (big deal) and that occasion when it died on me, which turned out to be a duff battery. That doesn't make it bad tech, or unsuitable for its intended use, not by a long stretch. The odd failure v the thousands of miles of it just working? No contest mate; it's still absolutely marvellous esp on long rides where the difference between moving the shifters the right distance against a spring for 7 hours or the gear change by osmosis that Di2 offers really is a massive benefit, not [for those of you dying to jump on any ambiguous phrasing] because I run out of energy and can no longer change gear after 103 miles, but because it's just nicer. It's fantastic having the next gear available when dancing up a hill without that slight lift that loses a bit of momentum; the front mech self trimming is neat, the indexing on the move is neat should you ever need or want to do it, the option to change the responsiveness or to change the actions of each shifter is neat, the consistent always-right change is neat, heck even the little whiirr that the FD makes when it shifts or trims is neat.

I too get that people may not wish to chuck a few quid at what may to them look like minor or unimportant changes, but it's not being 'defensive' to oppose other people's dismissal of it, it's being supportive of it. Don't buy it if you don't fancy it or can't afford it. Having sly digs at those who've decided that it is a better option...? Waste of time as far as I can tell.

mamba80

CIB..... its a great investment for you and you are happy with your purchase but you are just banging on about it rather too much aren't you? I haven't read anyone having a sly dig at you, disagree yes but some of your replies have been dismissive and rude.

as I said before, I ve used this stuff and for me, its not worth the investment into a tech that does not provide a big enough difference in shifting over say the 6800 or 9000 11sp systems, there also plenty of anecdotal evidence that these electronic systems are not infallible in the wet.

CiB

I'm not dismissive; if you want to read anything prior to that last exasperated pop as rude you're welcome to, that's your choice. It started off as a wider debate about whether bikes (and wider technology) have reached a zenith and that things should now stop as they are as it all works fine for me thanks. I've disagreed with that wider point, and disagree completely with those eager to dismiss Di2/EPS as pointless & unreliable.

I get bored of people latching onto minor failures & niggly faults and using that as a reason to dismiss the whole shooting match. There's almost a degree of glee for some people to discover that a quite expensive bit of kit hasn't worked for someone as well as it could have. I don't like that sort of attitude tbh; I'd rather people had a go and that early adopters showed the way etc, without the niggling & snide comments from some on here who can't wait to see it all fall apart.

iron-clover

coriordan wrote:

iron-clover wrote:

I can't see mechanical shifting ever dying out because of its simplicity and reliability- and it'll be many years before its possible to make the batteries and motors light enough so they weight the same as their mechanical counterparts.

the batteries are lighter than the cables they replace.

But the groupset is still heavier overall because of the motors.
DA 9000: 1998g, DA9070: 2047g

Yes, its a small difference but its still there.

The mechanical versions have the advantage of being easier to fix if they do go out of alignment by the roadside and you don't have to worry about forgetting to put them on charge. That and they're cheaper.

It will be interesting in the coming years to see how long the electronic groupsets last before wearing out- I know mechanical derailleurs last a very long time with care, but the shifters wear out after a lot of hard use- but is it longer than it takes for a little piece of electronics to fail?

No doubt I will have electronic shifting at some point, but for now I'm happy with mechanical, and I find the current derailleures to be a bit unsightly and don't like the whining noise they make when shifting. Pretty petty, but coupled with the cost its enough to put me off for now.

slowbike

CiB wrote:

not [for those of you dying to jump on any ambiguous phrasing] because I run out of energy and can no longer change gear after 103 miles, but because it's just nicer.

Actually I've been in a situation where I've ridden the last 20 miles of a sportive in one gear because I just can't change gear any more - a cold & wet day soon made my gloves sodden and my hands cold. My 2300 shifter is easy to go down the gear but a large movement to go back up and that became very difficult to do with freezing cold & wet hands - DI2 would've solved that issue.

I'd love DI2, although I was a bit concerned with the exploding rear mechs that seemed to be reported with regularity on here last spring (iirc) - I rather assume that if it was a design fault then it will be engineered out by the time I can justify the expense of DI2.

As for cold & wet hands - I carry a second pair of gloves if it's going to be a long wet ride ...

veronese68

Full hydraulic discs are of more interest to me than Di2. Not for any particular dislike of Di2 but just looking at it from a point of view of my use and the advantages gained for money spent compared to lack of available funds.
I must confess that the tart in me does find the mechs tend to be rather uglier on Di2, but that isn't exactly a rational complaint.

team47b

Veronese68 wrote:

I must confess that the tart in me does find the mechs tend to be rather uglier on Di2, but that isn't exactly a rational complaint.

It is function over form but putting the aestheic verses rational debate aside for a moment, your comment is neither, it is evaluative, so cannot be assigned either label, and for this reason I cannot argue with you.

Or...yeah innit

veronese68

team47b wrote:

Or...yeah innit

The Italian part of me wants to have form and function, but especially the form. It would be nice if I had some form though.

Bar Shaker

mamba80 wrote:

there also plenty of anecdotal evidence that these electronic systems are not infallible in the wet.

The 'it will fail in the rain' thing is probably the most wheeled out weakness proposed by those that dislike Di2, on club rides. It doesn't fail in the rain, just as the 12v electrics under your car's bonnet don't fail when you drive at 70mph in a thunderstorm. The voltages in Di2 are far too low to be affected by water, just as they are under the bonnet of your car.

We have seen one recent post from a guy who has had a failure and who had also been riding in the rain. He hasn't posted the results up yet but there are thousands of us riding through hell and high water with faultless Di2 systems.

Say you don't like Di2, if you don't, but don't say it doesn't work. It works brilliantly.

ilovegrace

metronome wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Yep, you are

...in short

Did you think the bicycle you ride was provided instantly by a deity in it's perfect form? No, it was a continual evolution of improvements which has continued after you froze time at your bike. Some of them will be good and become commonplace, some of them will turn out to be useless and die.

A Darwinian take on intelligent design

Whats the use of half an eye ?

Anonymous

cougie wrote:

Blimey.

No need to get so defensive about new kit. I get that some people love it - thats fine.

My main point with DI2 is that my cables have never snapped in 30 years plus of riding.
Mate has the DI2 and in a few months of riding - he's had to ride home in one gear. Even if he hadnt had that problem - I wasnt going to bother switching. Never had to charge my bike before - I dont need the complication.

You cant compare it to phones - with phones you have to charge them. With bikes you don't have to go that route if you don't want to.

Happy cycling everyone.

Please never ever ever buy electronic gears cougie, but you will. One day, when it suits you, you will do it.
You will also, at that very time, come up with a reason that it is ok to do then, but not before.

I only compared with phones to highlight the fact that charging something is not a big deal.
Do you cycle at night ever? Then you charge your lights. Its really no big deal to charge your gears if you want the benefits it brings.
If you do not, then fine, but don't sl4g it off with contradictory reasons just to make yourself feel better.

Anonymous

The comments about being a sucker to marketing make me laugh too.
Things are made, they become known about through various channels, I like them, and I buy them.

How exactly do I buy something that pi55es people off without being told that I was conned into wanting it and am therefore some sort of mug? :roll:

pinno

Fast forward 3 to 5 years and Di2 will probably be flawless I still don't see why the thing can't self generate and do without batteries. Pretty sure that the 1/4 of a watt or so it would draw to produce a current wouldn't be felt.

A freewheel internally set into a hub that engages at speed to produce current so it is not directly driven? I dunno.

Bar Shaker

pinarello001 wrote:

Fast forward 3 to 5 years and Di2 will probably be flawless I still don't see why the thing can't self generate and do without batteries. Pretty sure that the 1/4 of a watt or so it would draw to produce a current wouldn't be felt.

A freewheel internally set into a hub that engages at speed to produce current so it is not directly driven? I dunno.

It's flawless now. It has been since 6770 came out.

Why over complicate and add weight with dynamos? Recharge the battery for an hour once every 3 month. It really, really isn't a hard thing to do.

If you think that plugging a battery into a charger might cause you problems, Di2 may not be for you.

pinno

Bar Shaker wrote:

pinarello001 wrote:

Fast forward 3 to 5 years and Di2 will probably be flawless I still don't see why the thing can't self generate and do without batteries. Pretty sure that the 1/4 of a watt or so it would draw to produce a current wouldn't be felt.

A freewheel internally set into a hub that engages at speed to produce current so it is not directly driven? I dunno.

It's flawless now. It has been since 6770 came out.

Why over complicate and add weight with dynamos? Recharge the battery for an hour once every 3 month. It really, really isn't a hard thing to do.

If you think that plugging a battery into a charger might cause you problems, Di2 may not be for you.

I don't think you realise how much it rains in the West of Scotland.

morstar

Moot point for me as I don't have the budget for electronic shifting. If I did, I really don't know if I would or wouldn't get it. I am a little bit of a romantic about the simplicity of a bike but at the same time would love an all singing, all dancing TT machine. I am pretty sure this probably should have electronic shifting. Don't think I'm so convinced on a more utility oriented training bike.
Disc brakes I do want, hills with bends round here and anything that makes braking require a lighter touch whilst delivering consistency and less rim wear works for me.

Bar Shaker

I would definitely upgrade my fork and front wheel for a disc install. They are pointless on the back.

Lookyhere

Bar Shaker wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

there also plenty of anecdotal evidence that these electronic systems are not infallible in the wet.

The 'it will fail in the rain' thing is probably the most wheeled out weakness proposed by those that dislike Di2, on club rides. It doesn't fail in the rain, just as the 12v electrics under your car's bonnet don't fail when you drive at 70mph in a thunderstorm. The voltages in Di2 are far too low to be affected by water, just as they are under the bonnet of your car.

We have seen one recent post from a guy who has had a failure and who had also been riding in the rain. He hasn't posted the results up yet but there are thousands of us riding through hell and high water with faultless Di2 systems.

Say you don't like Di2, if you don't, but don't say it doesn't work. It works brilliantly.

I was out on a 4hr ride today over Bodmin moor, I teamed up with a guy with Di2, he rode through a ford, mayb 6" deep, I took the bridge, ten mins later, he was phoning his missus for a lift, his gears stopped working.
I have no opinion on DI2, never used it and I cant afford it either - but the issue is, he ll be waiting for several days before his LBS can get it to fix it, had it been a snaped cable, he could get one tomo and either he or his mate could have him on road.
I don't know why the pro DI2 band are vocal in their support for it, its like other opinions don't matter

stueys

I've got hydro discs on my winter bike and have tried a couple of rentals with di2.

Re discs, on an all weather bike they are a step change from rim brakes. Consistent stopping power and modulation irrespective of the weather or conditions, I genuinely struggle to see why anyone wouldn't want that. You can now get better options on disc specific rims as well which is getting close to nullifying the weight disadvantage. Having said that on my nice bike I'm sticking to normal rim brakes for a while. In the dry my DA brakes are lovely and I prefer the aesthetics and weight advantage. Personally I think that we will all end up on discs irrespective once the wheel manufacturers really cotton onto what they can do with a carbon wheel that doesn't need a braking track, probably 2/3 years away from being mainstream pricing.

Re di2, much as I love a mechanical shift electronic is pretty compelling. Premium price wise is still a touch high for me but I'll move over in a year or so I expect. My current view based on the few tries ive had is that I like it but not quite enough to fork out for it yet.