New technology making usable stuff obsolete.
blackpoolkev
Posts: 474
I ride a bike with rim brakes and mechanical gearing. I love my bike and if I hadn't heard about disk brakes and electronic shifting I would be happy. But I feel that big bike manufacturers are trying to make me feel inadequate.
I also appreciate nice hi-fi eqipment, some of my set up is 20 years old but I don't listen to more modern systems and think "That sound so much better". In fact I cringe at the tinny sound that is the accepted standard for folk that think that appreciating music is best done through a £500 phone.
Firstly, disk brakes - my brakes work just like all the brakes on all the bikes I have ever owned. They don't respond great in the wet so I brake accordingly. Once the rims have had the water dispersed from them I can lock the wheels up no problem. So surely the limiting factor is the grip of the tyres.
I can't even be bothered arguing about the benefits of shifting my gears fractions of a second faster, but not being able to service them using some basic mechanical knowledge.
I reckon we're being herded towards solutions to problems that doesn't exist, and some people are lining their pockets by our urge for the latest gimmick.
Maybe I'm just getting old.
I also appreciate nice hi-fi eqipment, some of my set up is 20 years old but I don't listen to more modern systems and think "That sound so much better". In fact I cringe at the tinny sound that is the accepted standard for folk that think that appreciating music is best done through a £500 phone.
Firstly, disk brakes - my brakes work just like all the brakes on all the bikes I have ever owned. They don't respond great in the wet so I brake accordingly. Once the rims have had the water dispersed from them I can lock the wheels up no problem. So surely the limiting factor is the grip of the tyres.
I can't even be bothered arguing about the benefits of shifting my gears fractions of a second faster, but not being able to service them using some basic mechanical knowledge.
I reckon we're being herded towards solutions to problems that doesn't exist, and some people are lining their pockets by our urge for the latest gimmick.
Maybe I'm just getting old.
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Comments
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No one is forcing you or anybody else to buy any of it.
Disk brakes = No more rim wear + better modulation + more riding confidence in all weathers.
and Di2 really isnt about faster shifting. Its about reliability,consistency and convenience. You dont need to service them,thats the whole point!
Let me guess,you have never tried any of them ? They are not gimmicks. They are just more options.
If you already have a bike that you love and works for you. Then you dont need any of it obviously.0 -
Yep, you are
...in short
Did you think the bicycle you ride was provided instantly by a deity in it's perfect form? No, it was a continual evolution of improvements which has continued after you froze time at your bike. Some of them will be good and become commonplace, some of them will turn out to be useless and die.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
ddraver wrote:Yep, you are
...in short
Did you think the bicycle you ride was provided instantly by a deity in it's perfect form? No, it was a continual evolution of improvements which has continued after you froze time at your bike. Some of them will be good and become commonplace, some of them will turn out to be useless and die.
A Darwinian take on intelligent design
tick - tick - tick0 -
When the UCI allow discs in the Pro Tour (2016 season), rim brakes will be "obsolete". I expect my bikes will still work fine and that they will to see me out, not concerned about getting spares there's plenty of NOS about for years.0
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I'm really not bothered by DI2 or disc brakes at all. Never had my gears break in decades of cycling but have had pals stuck in one gear by DI2 in a few months of experience.
Who says Discs will be in the Pro Tour in 2016 ? I'll believe that when I see it. It took them long enough to allow them for Cross.0 -
Who says Discs will be in the Pro Tour in 2016 ? I'll believe that when I see it. It took them long enough to allow them for Cross.[/quote]
...and even then there are plenty (ie most of them) of riders still on Canti's. Nys seems only to have discs on one bike to appease his sponsors but when the race gets serious you don't see him on the disc bike very often!Coach H. (Dont ask me for training advice - 'It's not about the bike')0 -
It's a payoff isn't it? I've had mechanical gear failure but not that often and a long time ago; I've also been let down by the Di2. Just my opinion but the benefit and neatness of Di2, plus what trailflow said; consistency, convenience and generally reliable, as well as the changing under load that works so well, the self-trimming front mech... it's neat, and for some the payoff of the occasional issue with the things is that for the rest of the time they work brilliantly and are nicer. Your choice, but no-one's forcing you buy this sort of stuff. Those of us that have though quite like it and are happy that we have the choice to buy it.cougie wrote:I'm really not bothered by DI2 or disc brakes at all. Never had my gears break in decades of cycling but have had pals stuck in one gear by DI2 in a few months of experience.
And well spotted ddraver; bikes didn't reach a state of absolute perfection some time ago and as a result nothing should ever be improved. I recall seeing some gorgeous bikes back in the 70s and thinking how superb they were. Look back now at the skinny frames, heavy wheels and cables sticking out of the top of the hoods etc and they're a piece of history. Like everything. Things move on.
BTW so does hi-fi. There's some really nice good sounding kit around; I wouldn't call the sound that comes out of a phone 'hi-fi', but using it as a source for your decent system? No probs? I do. That works pretty well.0 -
I can't see mechanical shifting ever dying out because of its simplicity and reliability- and it'll be many years before its possible to make the batteries and motors light enough so they weight the same as their mechanical counterparts.
Disk brakes just might take over once the pros are allowed them, although I suspect that rim options will remain for decades after because of the combination of lower weight and heritage. I suspect they're easier to service too- I'm not looking forward to the day I have to install a hydraulic hose on a bike :shock:0 -
I think it's one thing to not bother with these new innovations and rely on the established stuff (rim calipers, mech gearing) as long as the parts keep being produced and upgraded as they are now. Once they actually do become obsolete, then you start having problems, NOS may be available but harder and harder to source.
I am having a new frame made for next year, but have already committed to rim brakes as I've just bought the wheels, and the frame won't be designed for disc brakes - and this is due to me thinking as you do...'rim brakes are perfectly good for me' - but I might regret it in 5 or 6 years time when and if disc brakes become the norm and my frame wont accomodate them (I guess I could change the fork and have them on the front). The frame also won't accommodate e-shifting, but to be honest I'm less bothered about that.
My (rented) house came with a dishwasher, but never having used one before, I've not used it - there's nowt wrong with using the sink - after all, my user name is LakesLuddite!!- although I have consigned the cathode ray tube TV to the tip!0 -
Try the computer world if you want new tech making workable stuff obsolete ...
browsers that are more than a couple of years old are being prevented from accessing some sites because those sites have been written to accommodate the functionality of the new browser - doesn't matter that it's still just delivering or exchanging information.
Discs & DI2 - well, DI2 I can live without - for now - I'm reasonably happy with mech shifting, it has it's shortfalls, but TBH, it's simple to maintain.
As for discs - well, my road bikes are all rim brakes, but I've recently got a 29er with hydro disc brakes - now this wasn't an expensive bike, but wow, the brakes are superb - I now have loads of confidence where before I'd be concerned about controlling the speed.
As for HiFi - my system is >20years old, it's in no way obsolete - being made up of separates I can keep up with the different input methods. Oh, and whilst phone is an adequate sound source, the quality of the audio is not a patch on other sources ... it's fine for background music, but not great if you're really listening to it.0 -
Browsers & operating systems update in response to revised standards, on-going security improvements and sometimes yes just because the new way of doing things is better than the old way. Updates are always the user's choice, and tbh it's rare that things break so significantly that a web site that did work (for example) no longer does.Slowbike wrote:Try the computer world if you want new tech making workable stuff obsolete ...
browsers that are more than a couple of years old are being prevented from accessing some sites because those sites have been written to accommodate the functionality of the new browser - doesn't matter that it's still just delivering or exchanging information.
Discs & DI2 - well, DI2 I can live without - for now - I'm reasonably happy with mech shifting, it has it's shortfalls, but TBH, it's simple to maintain.
As for discs - well, my road bikes are all rim brakes, but I've recently got a 29er with hydro disc brakes - now this wasn't an expensive bike, but wow, the brakes are superb - I now have loads of confidence where before I'd be concerned about controlling the speed.
As for HiFi - my system is >20years old, it's in no way obsolete - being made up of separates I can keep up with the different input methods. Oh, and whilst phone is an adequate sound source, the quality of the audio is not a patch on other sources ... it's fine for background music, but not great if you're really listening to it.
Di2 is easy to maintain. Set it up once and forget about it. It needs a recharge every few months, unlike a phone or a laptop, and if it does need re-indexing you can do it on the move with no fuss or drama at all. Maintenance of the mechanical parts of it is no different to the normal maintenance that a bike needs.
The audio quality of a phone is irrelevant, if all you're using it for is to send a digital file from a NAS drive to a streaming device that has its own built-in DAC to fire the music into the amp. The audio quality of the phone isn't part of the equation in that fairly usual situation.0 -
Down tube shifters were usable stuff that was made obsolete. People said STi shifters were overly complicated.
Personally I love seeing the innovations coming out.Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
Boardman FS Pro0 -
I think Hi-Fi is a completely different thing, as is people listening to it on their phone.
They are doing that: A/ Because its convenient. B/ Because they are tight wads.
They probably use their phone to do several other things that would be better served by a different device, and are often not the type of people to have a decent Hi-Fi anyway.
I generally like/agree with your love of old Hi-Fi and cable bikes but my first thought when someone says things such as you have is to question why you like/prefer the things you do.
There are only ever two answers.
Either you just happened to live in an era throughout the whole of time when those things were at there best,
or, you only like them because they happened to be in existence in your era and you are unhappy (for one of a number of possible reasons) with change.
I like old Hi-Fi and have no intension of getting a disc/Di2 road bike just yet, but I have always had a dislike of the compact cassette (audio) and cables on bikes, so I am glad things moved on.
Not saying you are doing this, but people often have a go at new stuff because they just do not want to spend the money on it.
If they can somehow convince themselves it is 'wrong' and that they don't need it, then they feel a lot happier about not being able to have it.
One way of doing this is coming on a forum and chatting to like minded people. Often then being rude/arguing with anyone who dares to disagree with them.0 -
blackpoolkev wrote:Firstly, disk brakes - They don't respond great in the wet so I brake accordingly. Once the rims have had the water dispersed from them I can lock the wheels up no problem. So surely the limiting factor is the grip of the tyres.
You have identified a safety problem to which disk brakes are the solution.
Almost every experienced all-weather roadie have experienced an "Oh sh1t" moment when the rims are wet and they need to brake hard. Most of the time I remember to feather the brakes and dry the rims, but there are situations where this doesnt happen.0 -
It's not as rare as you may think - there are ways around it, but there are quite a number of sites that no longer allow access from IE8 - the last IE available for Windows XP - ways around it are easy - install another browser that isn't IE.CiB wrote:
Browsers & operating systems update in response to revised standards, on-going security improvements and sometimes yes just because the new way of doing things is better than the old way. Updates are always the user's choice, and tbh it's rare that things break so significantly that a web site that did work (for example) no longer does.Slowbike wrote:Try the computer world if you want new tech making workable stuff obsolete ...
browsers that are more than a couple of years old are being prevented from accessing some sites because those sites have been written to accommodate the functionality of the new browser - doesn't matter that it's still just delivering or exchanging information.
Discs & DI2 - well, DI2 I can live without - for now - I'm reasonably happy with mech shifting, it has it's shortfalls, but TBH, it's simple to maintain.
As for discs - well, my road bikes are all rim brakes, but I've recently got a 29er with hydro disc brakes - now this wasn't an expensive bike, but wow, the brakes are superb - I now have loads of confidence where before I'd be concerned about controlling the speed.
As for HiFi - my system is >20years old, it's in no way obsolete - being made up of separates I can keep up with the different input methods. Oh, and whilst phone is an adequate sound source, the quality of the audio is not a patch on other sources ... it's fine for background music, but not great if you're really listening to it.
From what I've heard I can only agree - the difference is in the cost - mechanical groupsets are usually cheaper - definitely cheaper at the low end - and that's why I stick with the mech versions for now (105 and Ultegra)CiB wrote:Di2 is easy to maintain. Set it up once and forget about it. It needs a recharge every few months, unlike a phone or a laptop, and if it does need re-indexing you can do it on the move with no fuss or drama at all. Maintenance of the mechanical parts of it is no different to the normal maintenance that a bike needs.
I'd suggest that it's fairly unusual to use a phone to deliver audio in the way you describe - some people will use it to control it that way, but I'd doubt it's many - most people have audio file on their phones.CiB wrote:The audio quality of a phone is irrelevant, if all you're using it for is to send a digital file from a NAS drive to a streaming device that has its own built-in DAC to fire the music into the amp. The audio quality of the phone isn't part of the equation in that fairly usual situation.
In that situation the audio quality depends on the compression of that file and how it is sending the file to the device. Sat in a dock is arguably the best way - but will rely on the quality of the external device D2A. A lead in the headphone socket will rely on the phones D2A - rarely a high quality component and usually subject to equaliser levels preset for headphones. Bluetooth connectivity is usually ok, but reliant on airwaves to deliver the data which isn't always done in time.
Anywhichway it's normally not as good as playing a CD direct or even better - going back to a DAT player - it still depends on the D2A conversion, but they're usually better in dedicated equipment.
I'm not a hifi expert by anymeans, but having worked in sound recording and with PA systems I have a reasonable grasp of what works better and what you can get away with.0 -
This is why car drivers never pull out on me in the wet. They know my rim brakes will not be immediately effective so they leave me a bit more space when the weather is bad.MichaelW wrote:blackpoolkev wrote:Firstly, disk brakes - They don't respond great in the wet so I brake accordingly. Once the rims have had the water dispersed from them I can lock the wheels up no problem. So surely the limiting factor is the grip of the tyres.
You have identified a safety problem to which disk brakes are the solution.
Almost every experienced all-weather roadie have experienced an "Oh sh1t" moment when the rims are wet and they need to brake hard. Most of the time I remember to feather the brakes and dry the rims, but there are situations where this doesnt happen.
Oh no, hang on they don't do that and I have wonderful disc brakes that just work whatever the weather.0 -
I run EPS on one bike. Is it a game changer? No not really but it does shift slickly (albeit after some teething issues). I’ve also got mechanical Super Record on another bike and it shifts like a dream too but I have to make it shift. Does that bother me? Of course not. Electronic gearing does need to be serviced btw.
I run disc brakes on my MTB. Do I want them on my road bike? Not in the slightest. They can be grabby, they can lock the back up. They’re just not for me - but I have to put up with them.0 -
Each of us has his or her own take on what is useful and what is overhyped garbage. Luckily for me, my view on all matters is right. I may therefore be able to help with this discussion:
1. Disc brakes: On a road bike they are unnecessary. On an MTB I resisted for years, but reluctantly accept now that they have a place off-road. Nonetheless, I still have V-Braked MTBs and love them. I'm not sure I'd do a 6-hour enduro on one by choice, but I love them.
2. Electronic shifters: These are clearly a case of the Emperor's New Clothes. I have Ergo shifters and they are fine. Ipso facto, any upgrade is unnecessary and I am (as ever) right.
3. Some other stuff I've gradually come to accept as a Good Thing: Front suspension on MTBs. Ergo-shifters (or STI). Clipless pedals. Kevlar in tyres. Lycra.
All other views are wrong. I have spoken.0 -
Debeli wrote:Each of us has his or her own take on what is useful and what is overhyped garbage. Luckily for me, my view on all matters is right. I may therefore be able to help with this discussion:
1. Disc brakes: On a road bike they are unnecessary. On an MTB I resisted for years, but reluctantly accept now that they have a place off-road. Nonetheless, I still have V-Braked MTBs and love them. I'm not sure I'd do a 6-hour enduro on one by choice, but I love them.
2. Electronic shifters: These are clearly a case of the Emperor's New Clothes. I have Ergo shifters and they are fine. Ipso facto, any upgrade is unnecessary and I am (as ever) right.
3. Some other stuff I've gradually come to accept as a Good Thing: Front suspension on MTBs. Ergo-shifters (or STI). Clipless pedals. Kevlar in tyres. Lycra.
All other views are wrong. I have spoken.
Its mainly the bits in bold that prove you are wrong lol.
Condemned by your own words.
So all other views are wrong, until you come around to realising they are actually right
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Bar Shaker wrote:Down tube shifters were usable stuff that was made obsolete. People said STi shifters were overly complicated.
Personally I love seeing the innovations coming out.
I loved going to STI from downtube shifters. The advantage was clear - you could have your hands on the bars/brakes and still change gears.
Same with clipless pedals - clear advantage - if you stopped at lights you didnt need to take a hand off to undo the strap before putting a foot down.
GPS and powermeters are a great idea. I'll probably come round to electronic shifting and discs in a few years time, but I'm not seeing the step change in advantage that some other innovations have been.0 -
iron-clover wrote:I can't see mechanical shifting ever dying out because of its simplicity and reliability- and it'll be many years before its possible to make the batteries and motors light enough so they weight the same as their mechanical counterparts.
the batteries are lighter than the cables they replace.0 -
cougie wrote:Bar Shaker wrote:Down tube shifters were usable stuff that was made obsolete. People said STi shifters were overly complicated.
Personally I love seeing the innovations coming out.
I loved going to STI from downtube shifters. The advantage was clear - you could have your hands on the bars/brakes and still change gears.
Same with clipless pedals - clear advantage - if you stopped at lights you didnt need to take a hand off to undo the strap before putting a foot down.
GPS and powermeters are a great idea. I'll probably come round to electronic shifting and discs in a few years time, but I'm not seeing the step change in advantage that some other innovations have been.
Have you ridden a bike with electronic shifting?
If you liked the convenience of the things you mentioned then I am sure you will like pushing a button that takes a split second, rather than pushing a lever across 4" hundreds of times on a long ride.0 -
You are wrong sir. Downtube shifters are the way to go. Get a nice skinny tubed (Reynolds of course) frame and forks. Slap on a mechanical gear shifters located on the downtube suitable wheels (rim braked of course) and tyres. Then you must remember that the gearing must be a 7 speed, 8 speed if you must be vulgar and flashy. Remember things have not moved on in the last 25 years since I bought my Raleigh road bike. It was £450 25 years ago and was my first ever good bike.
I recently got a hybrid with 9 speed gearing. disc brakes and front suspension!! Cost me £430, yes i'm cheaper in my older age. All I can say is I had to remember which way the thumb shifters went to change up and down. Took me a few rides to get that one down in my muscle memory. Then the disc brakes were a real painful learning curve. I had been used to rim brakes, admitedly I am a little slow in replacing the brake pads and my wheel rims had probably lost most of its friction needing replacement. Despite all that I always managed to stop. Even that time when I was still accelerating down a steep hill towards a hairpin with my brake levers squeezed as tight as I could get. I just about slowed down and made the bottom of the hill safely, just had to keep straight instead of making the left turn only to turn back once I had stopped myself.
Anyway after I got my new hybrid I had to learn how lightly to press the brake levers. I had a really good incentive to get used to them and that was my bits would contact the headset if I applied the brakes like my old rim brakes. Serious about that, I injured myself 4 times before I had the light braking sorted!!
I do have one question about disc brakes, Do they lose effectiveness with time??? My brakes are only a year old and I am sure they are about 75% of the braking efficiency of them when new. Is that the brake pads needing replacing or could it be the hydraulic fluid needs topping up or something else?? Also, if the wheel is slightly buckled does that affect th disc brakes? With rim brakes you just opened the "jaws" of the brake caliper a bit to give th wheel space to move until you got the wheel sorted but can;t think if there is something like that for disc brakes.0 -
Carbonator wrote:cougie wrote:Bar Shaker wrote:Down tube shifters were usable stuff that was made obsolete. People said STi shifters were overly complicated.
Personally I love seeing the innovations coming out.
I loved going to STI from downtube shifters. The advantage was clear - you could have your hands on the bars/brakes and still change gears.
Same with clipless pedals - clear advantage - if you stopped at lights you didnt need to take a hand off to undo the strap before putting a foot down.
GPS and powermeters are a great idea. I'll probably come round to electronic shifting and discs in a few years time, but I'm not seeing the step change in advantage that some other innovations have been.
Have you ridden a bike with electronic shifting?
If you liked the convenience of the things you mentioned then I am sure you will like pushing a button that takes a split second, rather than pushing a lever across 4" hundreds of times on a long ride.
Not ridden with it - but have played with it on a test bike. Yes it was neat and very impressive - just not enough to make me fork out for it. For a TT bike - I can see more advantages. Gear changes from the extensions as well as the brakes.0 -
cougie wrote:Carbonator wrote:cougie wrote:Bar Shaker wrote:Down tube shifters were usable stuff that was made obsolete. People said STi shifters were overly complicated.
Personally I love seeing the innovations coming out.
I loved going to STI from downtube shifters. The advantage was clear - you could have your hands on the bars/brakes and still change gears.
Same with clipless pedals - clear advantage - if you stopped at lights you didnt need to take a hand off to undo the strap before putting a foot down.
GPS and powermeters are a great idea. I'll probably come round to electronic shifting and discs in a few years time, but I'm not seeing the step change in advantage that some other innovations have been.
Have you ridden a bike with electronic shifting?
If you liked the convenience of the things you mentioned then I am sure you will like pushing a button that takes a split second, rather than pushing a lever across 4" hundreds of times on a long ride.
Not ridden with it - but have played with it on a test bike. Yes it was neat and very impressive - just not enough to make me fork out for it. For a TT bike - I can see more advantages. Gear changes from the extensions as well as the brakes.
So its a financial decision rather than a technical one?
Yes, massive advantage for TT. You can do similar on a road bike I think though 0 -
Probably financial and technical.
Against - cost - less reliable than current - has to be charged
For - really funky
On a TT then the advantages are greater - but I'd be weighing up my race having a remote chance of being disrupted to a flat battery or something technical. Cables just haven't let me down.0 -
cougie wrote:Probably financial and technical.
Against - cost - less reliable than current - has to be charged
For - really funky
On a TT then the advantages are greater - but I'd be weighing up my race having a remote chance of being disrupted to a flat battery or something technical. Cables just haven't let me down.
Sorry but this sounds like bull.
Do not think reliability is that much of an issue with it, and personally, reliability is not the main thing that makes me buy something anyway.
I would have Marathon Plus tyres with butyl tubes rather than Vittorias with latex ones if I went down that road.
Needs charging? Guess you do not have a mobile phone or tablet etc. then? They need charging a hell of a lot more.
Di2 has loads of warning re flat battery. If you ever let it go flat you deserve to be stuck in one gear.
You said that electronic gears were not a step change, but seem to now admit that actually they are, and you just want them to be proven as reliable and be more affordable.0 -
If Di2 were really unreliable wouldn't the forums be full of threads asking how to fix the things or folk letting off steam about how this expensive pile of tat has failed for the umpteenth time? Not saying it's 100% reliable - nothing is, but the lack of whinging suggests that Shimano got it pretty right before going mainstream with it. Compare if you will the number of Garmin threads - how do I..., why doesn't it just work out of the box...? etc.
Dismissing something that's really quite good and that most people do recognise as an improvement, just because it might break, seems a bit odd personally.0 -
Although volumes of Garmins is arguably way more than that of Shimano DI2 - so you're bound to get more "it's broken" noise - some of it justified, some of it more likely to be user error.CiB wrote:Compare if you will the number of Garmin threads - how do I..., why doesn't it just work out of the box...? etc.
Everything will break - eventually ...CiB wrote:Dismissing something that's really quite good and that most people do recognise as an improvement, just because it might break, seems a bit odd personally.
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CiB wrote:the lack of whinging suggests that Shimano got it pretty right before going mainstream with it.
Except they didn't. The first gen stuff wasn't without bugs and issues. It was the same with EPS.0
