How closely do you pay attention to your protein intake?

bolingbroke

I've recently been using myfitnesspal to help me cut the weight I gained in my end of season food binge through october and I noticed, talking as a person who likes bread with their bacon sandwich, it's actually fairly difficult to reach the recommended protein intake without eating a ton of calories. So now I'm contemplating using whey protein after interval sessions and I'm wondering how naive I actually am.

How closely do you track your protein intake? Is the average meat based diet sufficient for cycling or do you need to supplement it with things like why or lots of lean meats etc?

JayKosta

I use a whey protein & carb mix as a 'recovery supplement' after an exercise session - primarily because (supposedly) the 30 minutes or so after exercise is ideal to start recovery by eating protein and carbs. I think that a 20 gram serving of protein is fine for quick after exercise.

For the remainder of my daily meals I just try to eat a reasonable diet. I don't try to eat 'extra' protein, but do try to avoid excessive fat.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

meanredspider

I think it's wrong to think you need protein 30 minutes after exercise. My belief is that it's only carbs and that's because they will supposedly go directly to replenishing glycogen stores which are otherwise quite slow to restore. Your body will use protein as and when it gets it and, unlike fats and carbs, has no method of storing protein. Anything it can't use at that time will be excreted in your urine. How much you need will depend upon what you've been doing. I'd imagine any "target" in an app is as much to do with "balancing" your diet as it is to whether you need it or not.

ric/rstsport

bolingbroke wrote:

I've recently been using myfitnesspal to help me cut the weight I gained in my end of season food binge through october and I noticed, talking as a person who likes bread with their bacon sandwich, it's actually fairly difficult to reach the recommended protein intake without eating a ton of calories. So now I'm contemplating using whey protein after interval sessions and I'm wondering how naive I actually am.

How closely do you track your protein intake? Is the average meat based diet sufficient for cycling or do you need to supplement it with things like why or lots of lean meats etc?

How much protein do you think need? How severely have you reduced your diet and what amount of energy are you consuming?

To answer your last paragraph, it's more than possible to eat way more than the recommended amount of *elite endurance* protein intake on a *vegan* diet, never mind a meat diet. So, the question really is how much do you think you need and what are you consuming?

Ric

bolingbroke

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

bolingbroke wrote:

I've recently been using myfitnesspal to help me cut the weight I gained in my end of season food binge through october and I noticed, talking as a person who likes bread with their bacon sandwich, it's actually fairly difficult to reach the recommended protein intake without eating a ton of calories. So now I'm contemplating using whey protein after interval sessions and I'm wondering how naive I actually am.

How closely do you track your protein intake? Is the average meat based diet sufficient for cycling or do you need to supplement it with things like why or lots of lean meats etc?

How much protein do you think need? How severely have you reduced your diet and what amount of energy are you consuming?

To answer your last paragraph, it's more than possible to eat way more than the recommended amount of *elite endurance* protein intake on a *vegan* diet, never mind a meat diet. So, the question really is how much do you think you need and what are you consuming?

Ric

I'm aiming for 1900 calories a day at the moment and the recommended protein intake for an active person (1.1g per kilo of body mass) is 87 (I'm 6'1" 79kg, getting back to 75kg). When I'm counting up using myfitnesspal I'm barely reaching 60 grams of protein at 1900 calories. I eat cereal at breakfast, home made ham/chicken/cheese sandwiches at lunch then meat&2veg/spagbol/ham salad etc. at dinner. Just a generic western diet.

ric/rstsport

bolingbroke wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

bolingbroke wrote:

I've recently been using myfitnesspal to help me cut the weight I gained in my end of season food binge through october and I noticed, talking as a person who likes bread with their bacon sandwich, it's actually fairly difficult to reach the recommended protein intake without eating a ton of calories. So now I'm contemplating using whey protein after interval sessions and I'm wondering how naive I actually am.

How closely do you track your protein intake? Is the average meat based diet sufficient for cycling or do you need to supplement it with things like why or lots of lean meats etc?

How much protein do you think need? How severely have you reduced your diet and what amount of energy are you consuming?

To answer your last paragraph, it's more than possible to eat way more than the recommended amount of *elite endurance* protein intake on a *vegan* diet, never mind a meat diet. So, the question really is how much do you think you need and what are you consuming?

Ric

I'm aiming for 1900 calories a day at the moment and the recommended protein intake for an active person (1.1g per kilo of body mass) is 87 (I'm 6'1" 79kg, getting back to 75kg). When I'm counting up using myfitnesspal I'm barely reaching 60 grams of protein at 1900 calories. I eat cereal at breakfast, home made ham/chicken/cheese sandwiches at lunch then meat&2veg/spagbol/ham salad etc. at dinner. Just a generic western diet.

is your calculator working out protein amounts correctly. I'm an ovo-lactose vegetarian (so i eat milk, cheese, eggs, but not necessarily every day) eating around 2500 Kcal/day mainly via a significant amount of carbohydrate and still consume sufficient protein.

I'm 71 kg and consume around 5g/kg body mass of carb = ~355g = ~1420Kcal
~70g (~1g/kg body mass) of fat per day = ~630Kcal
~112g (~1.6g/kg body mass) of protein per day = ~450 Kcal

1420 + 630 + 450 = 2500 Kcal

Many carbohydrate rich foods such as pasta, rice, bread, etc contain significant amounts of protein. All the evidence shows that eating "a generic western diet" results in strongly meeting or vastly exceeding the required amounts of protein. Exceptions to this could be are if you are on a significant energy deficit or a burns victim.

Ric

bahzob

meanredspider wrote:

I think it's wrong to think you need protein 30 minutes after exercise. My belief is that it's only carbs and that's because they will supposedly go directly to replenishing glycogen stores which are otherwise quite slow to restore. Your body will use protein as and when it gets it and, unlike fats and carbs, has no method of storing protein. Anything it can't use at that time will be excreted in your urine. How much you need will depend upon what you've been doing. I'd imagine any "target" in an app is as much to do with "balancing" your diet as it is to whether you need it or not.

Sorry but this is incorrect. Assuming you wish to maximise the training benefits you need to make sure you take in sufficient protein immediately following a training session. It's quite possible that a "normal" Western diet will contain sufficient anyway but it that doesn't alter the fact you should to consider this and that you definitely "need" protein immediately after workouts.

Carbs are important too but for most amateur athletes their prime purpose is not to replenish glycogen but to assist in the transfer of protein to muscle. For this reason they should be high GI. If weight loss is a consideration immediately post exercise is probably the only time to consume high GI carbs. Outside of this window they may just cause more harm than good compared to a low GI alternative.

The need to replenish glycogen is overstated for many amateurs who train only a few hours a week. It's fairly common knowledge that, when fully replenished, the body has sufficient glycogen to fuel 1600-2000kcal of effort.

This is a lot. It's actually even more than it sounds because additional calories will come from fat (in proportion to time spent sub threshold, the lower the effort the more fat as a proportion is burned). To put give it some perspective the average guy will have on-board fuel to sustain around 270W for 2 hours. This is enough to allow a 70kg rider to make around 2 back back sub hour ascents of Alpe D'huez.

If your training plan involves workouts consisting of consecutive daily workouts equivalent to 2xAlpe climbs or doing multiple workouts per day then replenishing glycogen is important, assuming you wish to maintain intensity. This applies to pros, some especially committed amateurs and multi-day stage races. It from this group that the need to replenish glycogen was identified and applies.

If on the other hand you are doing 90 minutes every other day and your longer workouts are at base intensity then a "normal" diet will mostly be enough. Again this applies doubly if weight loss is a target. Outside of the recovery window carbs only have 2 uses
- To fuel exercise
- To build fat reserves

If you are not doing enough of the former to use them then they will just do the latter. This applies even more so to high GI carbs which also have a double whammy of making you feel hungrier and wanting more.

Getting back to OP.

It depends on what your training is aiming to achieve;
- If you are at ideal weight, eating normal (for the Western world) food and not training to get fitter don't worry.
- If you are ideal weight but want to get fitter then just make sure that immediately post workouts you have some additional protein + some sugar. Whey is often used because it is digested and available quickly.
- If you are trying to lose weight increasing protein and cutting/excluding high GI carbs is a good plan. Protein is good because it is either used or excreted so actual 1calorie protein will result in less fat gain than 1 calorie carbohydrate/fat. Protein also provides high satiation so will keep you feeling fuller longer.
(+ For all above the 5 portions of fruit/veg per day)

In case you doubt any of the above please check out this excellent webinar from Training Peaks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnCmTTNx_Jo&index=1&list=WL

bolingbroke

Thank you for the comprehensive answers.

bahzob, thinking about what you said about carbs assisting in the transfer of protein to muscle, would I be ok drinking a low carb - high protein shake immediately after an intense interval session followed by a higher carb meal a bit after or should I make sure I have the carbs together with the protein?

supermurph09

In answer to your question, no.

Before I began cycling I used to do weight training 4-5 days a week, so I'd be forever forcing protein down my neck in the form of shakes, bars or chicken breast 3 times a day. It helped me increase muscle and made it easier to consume calories without too much fat. Stopped weight training, began cycling.

After each ride I'd have a recovery protein shake to repair things, when it ran out I swapped the shake for a large glass of milk and a banana. I've felt absolutely no difference at all for doing so. In my opinion, just eat a balanced diet, cut out as much junk as possible and more than likely you'll be fine.

ric/rstsport

bolingbroke wrote:

Thank you for the comprehensive answers.

bahzob, thinking about what you said about carbs assisting in the transfer of protein to muscle, would I be ok drinking a low carb - high protein shake immediately after an intense interval session followed by a higher carb meal a bit after or should I make sure I have the carbs together with the protein?

it is highly unlikely you need a protein recovery drink after training, unless you're engaging in either training for the TdF (or similar), you are on a severe energy loss programme, or you eat a 'bizarre' diet.

team47b

Concerned about nutrition and talking about bacon sandwiches :roll:

Vegetables have protein, eat more brocoli

meanredspider

bahzob wrote:

The need to replenish glycogen is overstated for many amateurs who train only a few hours a week. It's fairly common knowledge that, when fully replenished, the body has sufficient glycogen to fuel 1600-2000kcal of effort.

This is a lot. It's actually even more than it sounds because additional calories will come from fat (in proportion to time spent sub threshold, the lower the effort the more fat as a proportion is burned). To put give it some perspective the average guy will have on-board fuel to sustain around 270W for 2 hours. This is enough to allow a 70kg rider to make around 2 back back sub hour ascents of Alpe D'huez.

If your training plan involves workouts consisting of consecutive daily workouts equivalent to 2xAlpe climbs or doing multiple workouts per day then replenishing glycogen is important, assuming you wish to maintain intensity. This applies to pros, some especially committed amateurs and multi-day stage races. It from this group that the need to replenish glycogen was identified and applies.

I agreed that the need to take a post-ride shake is overstated. I also agree with what you say about typically what your refreshed glycogen levels are. The point that you don't address adequately is how long it takes to replenish your glycogen. Even if you don't fully drain your glycogen on day 1, they still haven't fully recovered by day 2. On day 3 they will be lower still. It's why distance commuters like me struggled to do 5 days back-to-back at tempo pace and above.

Your body will use protein as and when can get it (which, in evolutionary terms makes perfect sense, since the body can't store it) so timing isn't critical.

My previous employer (the world's largest broad-based health product company) trained us in sports nutrition running the same course they developed for US pro football players.

Again, as I've said several times recently, despite our skills in many things, we haven't yet figured out accurately how the body works. I'd treat everything you're told as someone's idea of how it works.

DeVlaeminck

Is it really true that the reason you struggle to do 5 days at tempo is because of glycogen depletion - it's quite possible to be knackered without being glycogen depleted - I reckon for most people cumulative fatigue from several days back to back riding is down to factors other than not taking care when and how much they ate.

adam0bmx0

I consume about 160-190g protein a day(@74kg), split over 5 meals, but then I do weight train 3/4 days a week, counter productive for cycling I know, but I like the variety and don't cycle competitively.

Diamant49

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Is it really true that the reason you struggle to do 5 days at tempo is because of glycogen depletion - it's quite possible to be knackered without being glycogen depleted - I reckon for most people cumulative fatigue from several days back to back riding is down to factors other than not taking care when and how much they ate.

Yes, it could be at least in part due to glycogen depletion. As a diabetic I test blood sugar (BS) up to 11-12 times per day when cycling a lot (I need to give myself insulin if I eat more than 5g of carbs) - and I have to adjust my carb intake and insulin requirements according to exercise levels. If I start from a baseline of several days rest, and presumably full glycogen levels (eg as I did for a trip to Co. Cork for summer hols this year), the following would generally hold (I usually ride 1st thing, as then I will have taken no insulin for a prior meal - any food taken on the bike requires no insulin):

1. on day 1, a steady tempo ride, maybe pushing a bit, of 1.5 - 2+ hours will usually require no extra carbs (unless BS lowish at the start)- but my BS levels will not rise very high on eating during the day. Basal insulin during exercise is c.60%.

2. on day 2, a similar ride will usually require a banana or similar before leaving - and no insulin of course. I will need to be careful during the day (especially late afternoon, when glycogen replenishment can peak for me) and might require a lower basal insulin rate - but no reduction in insulin taken with food.

3. day 3 onwards I will have to reduce basal insulin, eventually by 50% all the time, and at 40% of this during exercise. Insulin taken with food will also have to be reduced, and I might have to eat from 20-25 miles onwards (c. 1.5 hours). I will also have to start eating cereal or similar before bedtime - my total daily carb intake will go up from c.275g to 400g, but at the same time my total insulin use will either not go up at all, or will even drop.

4. Intensity of exercise is a really big factor - a long 2-3 hour steady ride will have less impact on my BS levels for the rest of the day compared to 60-90 minutes at high intensity on the turbo trainer, as the fat:gylcogen ration decreases.

The body becomes much more sensitive to insulin as the level of exercise is maintained (but this drops to normal within 3-4 days if there is no exercise) and I know to look out for a peak in glycogen replenishment approx 8-9 hours after exercise. Interestingly, I have tried the high GI carb load within 5-10 mins of completing exercise, when the theory says little or no insulin is required. Doesn't work for me - need at least a normal dose of insulin to keep BS from going really high, even if I go low 3-4 hours later. So I have found that a bowl of porridge made with full-fat milk works best in avoiding a big spike in BS.

As MRSpider says, everyone is different though - my insulin requirements are at the lower end of the spectrum for Type 1 diabetics for instance - and a lot will depend on each person's metabolism, level of training, V02max, actual intensity of exercise etc, so each person needs to pay close attention to their own needs. Learning to recognise when you are genuinely hungry and eating (a healthy balanced diet) to this goes a long way!

team47b

275-400gms of is a lot of carbs, I was recommended to eat 250 for my weight and exercise level but can only manage 75gms without increasing insulin, just goes to prove we are all different

Diamant49

team47b wrote:

275-400gms of is a lot of carbs, I was recommended to eat 250 for my weight and exercise level but can only manage 75gms without increasing insulin, just goes to prove we are all different

To be honest it is a lot - the 400g level is only something I have hit when I do a very high & hilly mileage (for me anyway) of 250-300 miles per week. My dietitian would "accept" me eating a minimum of 300g per day, even when not doing anything more than walking from the car to work and back. At that level of activity I am down to 200-225g - but I would find it difficult to go lower. I still have the diet sheet I got when diagnosed, and I think it was over 400g per day, without activity being considered. Things like large bowl of porridge + 2 slices of toast for breakfast - for me thats an either or choice, and I have generally ignored it.

On the point of individual difference, I should really be talking about g carbohydrate per Kg, so at a currently slightly portly 78Kg :oops: weight that means I am currently averaging 3.4g CHO per Kg, according to the stats on my pump. That probably narrows the gap a bit, but at the end of the day its about what you are comfortable with and if something works its better to stick with it.

phreak

bahzob wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I think it's wrong to think you need protein 30 minutes after exercise. My belief is that it's only carbs and that's because they will supposedly go directly to replenishing glycogen stores which are otherwise quite slow to restore. Your body will use protein as and when it gets it and, unlike fats and carbs, has no method of storing protein. Anything it can't use at that time will be excreted in your urine. How much you need will depend upon what you've been doing. I'd imagine any "target" in an app is as much to do with "balancing" your diet as it is to whether you need it or not.

Sorry but this is incorrect. Assuming you wish to maximise the training benefits you need to make sure you take in sufficient protein immediately following a training session. It's quite possible that a "normal" Western diet will contain sufficient anyway but it that doesn't alter the fact you should to consider this and that you definitely "need" protein immediately after workouts.

The research I've read into this suggests that you only 'need' protein in that 30 minute window if you're going to train again within 24 hours. If your next session is outside of that window then you'll recover just fine through a normal diet.

So the protein in that window might speed things up, but the normal rate of recovery isn't really that slow to begin with. I wouldn't think most of us are training 7 days a week, but each of us has to figure these things out for themselves.

dilatory

Oddly I listened to a podcast the other day with Rory Macdonald who is a welterweight UFC fighter. He's one of the top contenders in a stacked weight class for the belt. Guy is ripped. Trains hard every day. He said he rarely drinks a protein shake. He has a healthy diet and that works.

Now, I don't like to draw comparisons, but if a 170lb man of muscle can maintain and get stronger and better without protein shakes, surely us non professional cyclists can manage?

JayKosta

dilatory wrote:

...
He said he rarely drinks a protein shake. He has a healthy diet and that works.
...

---

But what DOES he do regarding nutrition after workouts, etc?

There isn't anything 'special' about protein shakes, whey protein, etc. - they are simply a convenient way to quickly get a serving of nutrition.

If you can arrange another method to get good nutrition in a timely manner, then that certainly works. For example, low-fat chocolate milk provides a good blend of protein and carbs.

For me, the determining factors are convenience and cost, with taste that is acceptable.
I prefer a product that I can purchase in bulk and which doesn't require special storage or handling. When I need a 'serving', I take what I want and close the container until the next time.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

dilatory

He eats a healthy meal. Chicken breasts, salmon, pork loin, lean beef or whatever. Nuts or avocado. Veg. He added when he does do protein shakes, they're never a whey protein but a plant based protein. Found it interesting anyway, given how every Sunday rider and their dog thinks you should chug a protein shake after every club ride.