Training for Alpe d’HuZes.

ademort

I live in the Netherlands and am taking part in the Alpe d’HuZes cycling event next year. For those people who have never heard of this event, i,ll explain. Every year the Dutch go to Alp d'Huez every June to climb the Alp. They climb it a maximum of 6 times in one day. Of course it,s all for a good cause so well worth the effort.
Now here,s my problem. I live in one of the flattest places you can imagine. No hills anywhere and of course i need to train for this event or i,m going to suffer. I,m physically fit and have ridden bikes for 35 or more years. I ride 100+ Kms on a regular basis and feel that i,m up to the job, but would like to ask fellow forum members if they could give me any training advice that may help me to get into the best possible shape.

meanredspider

I think I can help as I live in Amsterdam and did The Six this year.

Your secret weapon to success is the brutal and relentless wind in this part of the world. I did regular laps of the Markermeer (163k) and, inevitably, the return leg was into the wind. It's great on two counts - not only does it allow you to train hard but it's also great mental training - 80km into the wind with no shelter (there will be very few people in the UK who understand this - I certainly didn't)

I also did some very long slow sessions (4 hours) on the Tacx VR turbo at very low cadence and the 200W target. You don't need aerobic fitness just endurance.

It depends what you hope to achieve on the day but I set myself a power target/limit (ca 200W) and trained to deliver that relentlessly. I then used my Stages power meter on the day to ride to that. It's not fast but it's effective. I scheduled myself 2 hours per lap - climb, feed, descend, climb... The cheer you get from the crowd when the announce your name and that you've completed the Six is amazing.

briantrumpet

I imagine in many ways it's easier to train in flat areas for this sort of thing than in a lumpy British one ... Devon is full of hills, but nothing longer than a fairly brutal 20-minute climb, and that's poor preparation for a 1-hour gradual Alpine ascent. And there's nowhere flat for one-hour constant effort.

ozzzyosborn206

i think you will need a big base, that is a lot of climbing in one hit. I raced for a few months in Belgium mainly just doing amateur kermesses, then went to the alps for a week of training and because I was race fit I climbed well despite not having ridden over anything more than a flyover bridge

10100110

Hi there!

Like you I live in an incredibly flat area (in the UK however) with the added benefit of little wind in the summer, with that base I climbed two mountains this year:

French Alps: Morzine to Avoriaz climb, 781m climb 11.4km, 6.8% avg grade 13% max

I failed at this one (only one attempt though): French Alps: Joux Plane (next year I hope to nail it).

Following the Alps next came Tenerife:

Tenerife: Los Cristianos to the Teide (6m to 2150m via my route) with only 1 stop at Vilaflor for water refil (1500m up) nailed it the first time. Going to do this again but goto the car park (2300m) and jog / walk / crawl to the volcano summit (3718m - hopefully!).

Before attempting the above I bought the BKOOL TT and rode as many video mountain stages as I could, I worked up to the big alpine stages by starting off small with 490m ascents and up to and over 1,000m. This helped alot! I also dropped in some strength interval sessions where you ride for example on a continuous gradient selecting a big gear and grinding out a cadeance of around 50-60rpm, this is real tough if you do it right - its meant to be but it really helps.

Both of the above tactics helped me complete those climbs, just remember on the actual climbs cadeance cadeance cadeance, I shoot for 90rpm but I'm training to try and increase that further.

HTH

imposter2.0

10100110 wrote:

just remember on the actual climbs cadeance cadeance cadeance,

Or better still - cadence, cadence, cadence....

meanredspider

Don't be shy of selecting a nice gear ratio for the day itself - I managed to squeeze 33 up front and 30 on the rear of my old Di2 equipped bike - I'd have been happier with 32 on the rear. It's ALL about endurance (physical, mental and emotional). But, for training, select the power and cadence you want to use on the day.

It's obvious, but shed any excess Kgs you can manage (I got rid of 10kg).

Don't underestimate the mental aspect of the ride. There's a long section in the middle of the hill where there's nothing: no supporters, no water, nothing much to look at. That's quite bleak later in the day when you begin to tire. There's a bus stop which was one landmark and, bizarrely, there was a little cog (10mm) in the road and I spotted it every time. It's good to practice riding tired and alone into a crappy wind.

ademort

Firstly, thanks to all who replied its given me a lot to think about and certainly will help me in the coming months to achieve my goal. As for gearing i have a 39x25 which i think should be fine for me. I would like to ask what gearing you have used for this climb.

meanredspider

ademort wrote:

As for gearing i have a 39x25 which i think should be fine for me. I would like to ask what gearing you have used for this climb.

I think you'd be the highest geared person on the hill on the day with that. As I say, I used 33x30. Plenty of people on the hill with triples and no shortage of MTBs either. I wouldn't go that short if I was doing the hill once or twice and I was comfortable for 4 climbs - the 5th started to feel hard and the 6th was a grind partly because I'd struggled to eat and drink enough.

briantrumpet

I've been up it once on a 34/28, and a friend on the 39/27 found it hard going. He's since changed to a compact for such stuff. I'd not want to be at the limit on the first ascent of the day, let alone the sixth.

antsmithmk

briantrumpet wrote:

I've been up it once on a 34/28, and a friend on the 39/27 found it hard going. He's since changed to a compact for such stuff. I'd not want to be at the limit on the first ascent of the day, let alone the sixth.

I went up twice this summer on 34/25 and suffered like a dog.

The OP came looking for advice.... fit the biggest rear cassette you bike can take. If you go with 39/25 I predict your knees will give out sometime on the 3rd climb and you will abandon the ride.

briantrumpet

Of course it will depend somewhat on if you're a powerful whippet. I'm about 75kg and a reasonable climber anyway (it took me just under the hour), but I wouldn't have wanted to do it on less than 34-27 - I was on the biggest cog most of the time in order to keep the legs turning round at a sensible rate.

bahzob

Gearing for this is a no brainer. You won't ever be using the big gears so it's just sensible to fit the biggest possible cassette/smallest chainring you can. There is no downside if you adopt this approach and every chance you will thank the gods you did..

Even if you can do 6 repeats on a 39x25 this is still the best option. For best mechanical efficiency you really don't want to be using the extreme cog on your cassette for protracted periods of time, so just take a bigger cassette so the chain runs a bit straighter.

meanredspider

bahzob wrote:

Gearing for this is a no brainer. You won't ever be using the big gears

It's not quite that straightforward - I wish it was so you could just develop a reliable ultralight SS set up. It's great, though, to have a big gear for the descents to get yourself out of trouble. There are quite some gaggles that inevitably form and being able to pull away out of the bends to find yourself some space is great. It takes quite a time to get down (it's one of the mental challenges: realising that you've got to turn right around and climb back up this long descent) and making the best of it is important.

But, you're right, you'll always be happy to know you have a shorter gear than you need.

bahzob

meanredspider wrote:

bahzob wrote:

Gearing for this is a no brainer. You won't ever be using the big gears

It's not quite that straightforward - I wish it was so you could just develop a reliable ultralight SS set up. It's great, though, to have a big gear for the descents to get yourself out of trouble. There are quite some gaggles that inevitably form and being able to pull away out of the bends to find yourself some space is great. It takes quite a time to get down (it's one of the mental challenges: realising that you've got to turn right around and climb back up this long descent) and making the best of it is important.

But, you're right, you'll always be happy to know you have a shorter gear than you need.

Er? The only way you will be significantly slowed down going downhill is if you are slowed up by folks who cant descend safely. Almost always this means they will brake too much too soon and take too wide a line round bends. You don't need a big gear to get past them, just brake correctly and take the correct line.

This means you will descend quicker, safer and be recovering all the way down.

It also means not only will you never use the smallest cogs on your cassette but may actually never even need to change up to the big ring.

Also in terms of mental approach, thinking you need to get downhill as fast as possible is imo counter-productive and potentially dangerous, especially so if you are thinking this way on your final few laps. The maths doesn't add up. You will only save a few minutes at best which makes no difference over 24 hours.

So yes ideally you would have a dedicated ultralight setup. It should not be single speed though. Whilst pretty constant there are enough changes in grade to mean you will need to change gear to keep effort steady.

Also and, crucially to this challenge, you will fatigue after several ascents. Then you will need to swap down a cog or two to be able to keep a steady cadence. Which again is why if you can do climb now on a 39x25 it just means that for sure if you want to do 6 climbs you will need more gears (assuming you don't wish to suffer needlessly)

ju5t1n

ademort wrote:

Firstly, thanks to all who replied its given me a lot to think about and certainly will help me in the coming months to achieve my goal. As for gearing i have a 39x25 which i think should be fine for me. I would like to ask what gearing you have used for this climb.

The little bike shop in Bourg D’Oisans does a roaring trade selling new cassettes to people who turn up think they’ll be fine with 39x25

DeVlaeminck

I knew a guy who did the Marmotte on 39*25 and he did very well (can't remember if he sneaked inside the top 100 or just missed it but that kind of standard) but for 6 straight attempts of the Alpe I think even a pro would probably stick an easier gear on than that. Even if as Bahzob says it's for mechanical efficiency of a better chain line though I suspect the final times up the bottom ramp will have you using whatever gear you've got.

The descent is so fast that gravity should give you enoigh speed to pass any nervous descenders - if you want to go faster then just picture coming round a bend at 50mph and meeting a cyclist slaloming up the other way in the middle of the road. I haven't done this but I know descending after the Marmotte you are not going to break any records without taking a big risk.

meanredspider

bahzob wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

bahzob wrote:

Gearing for this is a no brainer. You won't ever be using the big gears

It's not quite that straightforward - I wish it was so you could just develop a reliable ultralight SS set up. It's great, though, to have a big gear for the descents to get yourself out of trouble. There are quite some gaggles that inevitably form and being able to pull away out of the bends to find yourself some space is great. It takes quite a time to get down (it's one of the mental challenges: realising that you've got to turn right around and climb back up this long descent) and making the best of it is important.

But, you're right, you'll always be happy to know you have a shorter gear than you need.

Er? The only way you will be significantly slowed down going downhill is if you are slowed up by folks who cant descend safely. Almost always this means they will brake too much too soon and take too wide a line round bends. You don't need a big gear to get past them, just brake correctly and take the correct line.

This means you will descend quicker, safer and be recovering all the way down.

It also means not only will you never use the smallest cogs on your cassette but may actually never even need to change up to the big ring.

Also in terms of mental approach, thinking you need to get downhill as fast as possible is imo counter-productive and potentially dangerous, especially so if you are thinking this way on your final few laps. The maths doesn't add up. You will only save a few minutes at best which makes no difference over 24 hours.

So yes ideally you would have a dedicated ultralight setup. It should not be single speed though. Whilst pretty constant there are enough changes in grade to mean you will need to change gear to keep effort steady.

Also and, crucially to this challenge, you will fatigue after several ascents. Then you will need to swap down a cog or two to be able to keep a steady cadence. Which again is why if you can do climb now on a 39x25 it just means that for sure if you want to do 6 climbs you will need more gears (assuming you don't wish to suffer needlessly)

Well, I can only speak as someone who as actually done this challenge successfully, so what would I know?

For starters, you get slowed down by all sorts of things on the hill - not least of all traffic (trucks) ascending and descending escorted by the official bikes. They are far slower through the corners than a bike but accelerate out of the corners much quicker. I was very glad to have a reasonable gear - of course, I could be completely wrong.

Secondly, you're up against time more than you think. There's not "24 hours" but, realistically 12-13hours. I think I started my last ascent within an hour of them closing the hill to new starters. Mentally, time you're wasting going down is time you're losing to go up. And it isn't about being dangerous but precisely the opposite: finding yourself some space on the hill amongst the HUGE mix of riders. Forget the Etape or the Marmotte - some people will only do one climb in the day.

On the subject of gearing, I was so exhausted that, on the last climb I was at the top of the 3x 12% ramps before I realised I wasn't in my lowest gear!

matt-h

10100110 wrote:

I failed at this one (only one attempt though): French Alps: Joux Plane (next year I hope to nail it).

I did this in August, at the end of a ln day and in 35deg. It was brutal!
A tough but rewarding climb
Apparently one of very few climbs that Armstrong bonked on!

Matt

matt-h

10100110 wrote:

I failed at this one (only one attempt though): French Alps: Joux Plane (next year I hope to nail it).

I did this in August, at the end of a ln day and in 35deg. It was brutal!
A tough but rewarding climb
Apparently one of very few climbs that Armstrong bonked on!

Matt

robbo2011

ademort wrote:

Firstly, thanks to all who replied its given me a lot to think about and certainly will help me in the coming months to achieve my goal. As for gearing i have a 39x25 which i think should be fine for me. I would like to ask what gearing you have used for this climb.

Late to the party, but I would rethink that. You might be able to get up there once in that gear combination, but six times? I doubt it. You really need to be looking at a 34x28 combination or similar. Don't underestimate the effect of fatigue on your ability to push a tall gear.

g00se

Coming from some flatlands too, you will find that you have a bit of an advantage for training - as long sweetspot and threshold efforts are what get you up alpine climbs. I found getting used to long TT-style efforts helped the most.

Again, get some bail-out gearing. To keep going on and on in your event, you're going to have to keep around a threshold effort. Going too much into the red will stop you. Having the low gears available will give you the options to keep your heart-rate down when you need to look after yourself.

Finally, what you may not appreciate is descending skills - especially coming from the flatlands. It's one thing being used to rolling down a few short hills, but mile after mile of accelerating descents can be a lot more daunting than you think. When I first went to the alps, I thought I would suffer the climbs and love the descents. It was the other way round - the climbs were challenging but enjoyable - I went to pieces on some of the descending switchbacks.

paulmon

I did this climb 4 days into a 7 day trip and after the hardest day I had ever spent in the saddle (Iseran, Telegraph and Galiber). I found it really tough because of the accumulative fatigue from the previous 3 days. It was hot and my ass was sore. I had a 34/32 and feel no shame in admitting I spent a fair part of the climb using it.

If I had tackled it fresh it would have been a different story but don't overlook the affects of fatigue. Better to have the gear a not use it than to need it and not have it available.

ademort

I,m going to put a 12-27 cassette on and leave the chainrings as they are.Smallest gear 39x27 and hope i,m ok. I,ve been up wrynose pass on 42x23 and had no problem with that, although there is an immense difference in the length of the climb.

meanredspider

g00se wrote:

as long sweetspot and threshold efforts are what get you up alpine climbs. I found getting used to long TT-style efforts helped the most.

Sorry to disagree - but if you try to do AD6 at anything close to that type of effort you'll never do the 6

75+km at 9% incline

ademort wrote:

I,m going to put a 12-27 cassette on and leave the chainrings as they are.Smallest gear 39x27 and hope i,m ok. I,ve been up wrynose pass on 42x23 and had no problem with that, although there is an immense difference in the length of the climb.

Well, good luck: I think it's a big mistake but you maybe an infinitely better climber than me. I'm not sure even the best climber I've ever met would chance that though.

ETA - well, maybe NOT the best climber I've met as I've met the infamous Lance Armstrong but then he was the best climber doped up to the eyeballs I've met

meanredspider

Still, when you get to this bit for the last time, it feels good

g00se

meanredspider wrote:

g00se wrote:

as long sweetspot and threshold efforts are what get you up alpine climbs. I found getting used to long TT-style efforts helped the most.

Sorry to disagree - but if you try to do AD6 at anything close to that type of effort you'll never do the 6

75+km at 9% incline

Yes - you're right - I was thinking of a single climb.

blown04svt

I done the Marmotte this year 2014 which finished at the top of ALpe D'huez.. unfortunately from my entry in november 2013 I started good doing 40 miles mid week and a 60 mile sunday ride begining to build a base but come January I was on a high profile motorsport project (working) and didnt see my bike again until 2 weeks before the marmotte, I spent a week riding 70-80 miles per day back to back and eating plenty, then took 5 days rest before the event. I completed the marmotte in 9h15 ride time. Not fast but I made it... other than training as already mentioned GEARING IS KEY... I didnt know this and rode it with 34/26! It became a mental challenge over physical towards the end. I will be returning in 2015 this time equipped with strong legs,big lungs and the correct gearing.

Oh and hello all as this is my first post...

ademort

TBH last week we had a video conference with our colleagues from around the globe who will be joining us for the event. It was said that gearing was very crucial and it would be better to have the option of a smaller ring just in case. If i go along with that then i am going to have to change the crankset as i have Shimano Ultegra 6800 series 53x39 with a maximum front mech capacity of 16 teeth. This means i could only fit a 37 inner ring at most. I,m probably going to have to buy a compact and fit a 28 sprocket on the cassette. Can anyone think of a better option. I,m already spending money on new wheels as my cosmic carbone SLs will be no good in the mountains. I can see this being a costly event for me.

meanredspider

ademort wrote:

TBH last week we had a video conference with our colleagues from around the globe who will be joining us for the event. It was said that gearing was very crucial and it would be better to have the option of a smaller ring just in case. If i go along with that then i am going to have to change the crankset as i have Shimano Ultegra 6800 series 53x39 with a maximum front mech capacity of 16 teeth. This means i could only fit a 37 inner ring at most. I,m probably going to have to buy a compact and fit a 28 sprocket on the cassette. Can anyone think of a better option. I,m already spending money on new wheels as my cosmic carbone SLs will be no good in the mountains. I can see this being a costly event for me.

Can you not find someone who would lend you a compact crank and appropriate cassette for the event? I'd be happy to but I'm sure you must know someone else that would.

ademort

TBH no i don,t. All of my colleagues and bike buddies ride the standard 53/39 or thereabouts and sadly we are all in the same boat. We live in the Netherlands and there,s almost nothing here near me to climb. Why buy a bike with a compact when there,s no hills to climb. It looks like i will have to buy a Shimano tiagra compact crankset and cassette. I might just buy a groupset when they are on offer and i can use the parts for my other bikes.