Friday OT: The Reckless rise of UKIP!

DonDaddyD

vermin wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

UKIP is a party designed to appeal to white people.

It's not though, is it. It's designed to appeal to racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, nimbyists and any other form of biggot you care to mention. This is not a skin colour thing. This is a charter for the anti-socialists - the selfish society. To suggest that such people might belong to one race or one traditional social strata is ridiculous and extremely naive at best; racist and biggoted at worst.

I think we need to agree to disagree.

While it may not being a colour thing, it certainly is a nationalist thing. UKIP aren't targeting ethnic minorities in their campaigns. They aren't targeting culturally diverse but socially deprived parts of the Country, no, they are targeting predominately white areas some of which have little to no immigration save for the fear of it.

When Farage talks about the 70s and 80s he isn't saying oh the Sus Laws were so bad, or that the police were a racist institution. No. He is talking about how wonderful it was when the high street was filled with local (white) shop owners and how funny the BBC used to be with Alf Garnet and Love Thy Neighbor.

UKIP isn't after the 'black' or 'dark' vote (call it what you will). It's not after the gay vote or the green vote or the pro feminine vote. No. It's after the box standard clear as day white vote. And whereas you could boil down the type of person who would vote UKIP, you can't anymore as they're appealing to a range of people from a range of backgrounds - the one consistency being race. This isn't to say that all white people are predisposed to voting UKIP or that you need to be racist, homophobic etc to want to vote for them. You could simply fall on the wrong side of an EU law and be annoyed by it. UKIP as a party have done quite well to absolve itself (on the surface level) of its racist persona.

I've explained that in a scenario where UKIP gets in power, pulls out of the EU and starts deporting Europeans. I'm worried about what it will want to do with non-EU immigrants and ethnic minority nationals like myself. I'm going to brace myself for Enid Blyton books being allowed back in schools, and Gollywogs being the star of John Lewis's next advert.

I stand by what I typed.

Kieran_Burns

WarrenG wrote:

I am completely depressed by the rise of UKIP. I find it really sad that the main political parties, due to their shortsightedness and incompetence have fostered an environment where a racist demagogue like Farage can flourish.

I've lost friends because of this, or more accurately removed myself from social circles where it now seems ok to be a backward looking, hatefilled, bigot

That tweet was an irrelevance - the real story is we are close to having these people having a real influence in this country

I've had a major bust up with two friends simply because I queried a comment one made... newspaper report stated "a smartly dressed Asian in a dark BMW tried to pick up two schoolgirls from a bus stop" He started ranting about Muslims (this is Rotherham by the way...) whereupon I asked "what on Earth evidence do you have it was a Muslim?"

That was it... you would not believe the abuse I've sustained from that one comment.

Sewinman

I grew up on Enid Blyton books - I can't remember them being racist, but at the time I didn't really know what that was. I must have read the Magic Faraway Tree about 50 times.

UKIP has a problem with Eastern European immigrants and the EU. It does not seem to be much about colour, so I think bringing black/dark/white narrative into it is a bit wide of the mark. Branding them racists is probably why they are doing well, the political classes are not really listening to what they and their followers want...it is an easy way to dismiss them.

I had my hair cut by a first gen. Latvian immigrant last year, his chosen subject for the usual painful chat was how UK immigration had gone mad and needed to be controlled. Bizarre!

DonDaddyD

Sewinman wrote:

UKIP has a problem with Eastern European immigrants and the EU. It does not seem to be much about colour, so I think bringing black/dark/white narrative into it is a bit wide of the mark.

Do you honestly think the issue with immigration/immigrants stops at Eastern Europeans?

Even so, The UK Independence Party has a problem with Eastern Europeans. What demographic (age, ethnicity, gender) is likely to support this party?

So who is the most likely person that this party is going to appeal to?

tgotb

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

UKIP has a problem with Eastern European immigrants and the EU. It does not seem to be much about colour, so I think bringing black/dark/white narrative into it is a bit wide of the mark.

Do you honestly think the issue with immigration/immigrants stops at Eastern Europeans?

Even so, The UK Independence Party has a problem with Eastern Europeans. What demographic (age, ethnicity, gender) is likely to support this party?

So who is the most likely person that this party is going to appeal to?

UKIP's target electorate are bigots who can't (or won't) understand the complexity of running a country. It's quite hard to appeal to all bigots at once, because they're likely to hate each other. UKIP have done a reasonable job of appealing to bigots of many different persuasions, but BNP sympathisers are somewhat over-represented.

Let's imagine a big Venn diagram with three overlapping groups of people:
1. People with long-term British ancestry (whatever long-term means)
2. Bigots (I assume all ethnic groups have a similar proportion of bigots)
3. People who don't understand the importance of a full manifesto

Most of UKIP's target electorate lies in the intersection of those three groups. Suggesting that their target electorate is the whole of group 1 is incorrect; indeed, making such a suggestion could lead people to suggest you might be a member of group 2...

Sewinman

This is the kind of dismissive UKIP bashing that I think is helping them.

Coach H

I conform to the Billy Connolly school of politics

"Don't vote it only encourages them. Anyone who wants to be a politician should be banned for life from being one"

And this is the reason that I have spoiled my ballot (as this is the only way to effectively abstain) in every General Election bar the last one. In that I, along with painfully few others, voted for a guy who had reluctantly been persuaded to stand after multiple years volunteering for roles in the community with no agenda other than he liked helping people. Shamefully, IMO, most in my constituency voted for professional politicians on the back of the lies told by their respective parties and class affiliation.

I may be making this up, but I am sure I read somewhere that if enough of the voters spoil their ballot than governing power would revert to the Queen until a valid election was complete. Can't see how her and Charles would be worse to be fair!

cookeeemonster

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... CMP=twt_gu

jamesco

bompington wrote:

As for the tweet - a bit harsh response from Milliband, but of course Thornberry got it in the neck for slipping up and actually revealing openly what most left-wingers think of the lower classes in private.

Writing "lower classes" is quite revealing, too! She was just tweeting the equivalent of rolling ones eyes and there's been a complete over-reaction. Seriously, who genuinely gives a fчck?

Il Principe wrote:

If you visit America or Turkey you'll see the National flag on display all over the place, but without the negative connotations.

I sure found the omnipresence of the flag wearisome while living in the US - waving the flag when it's not a flag-waving occasion is just mindless and a bad substitute for thinking; some of the state flags (Georgia, Mississippi) were especially negative. If I was living in Cyprus, the Turkish flag would definitely have some connotations.

Il Principe wrote:

She was right to quit. I just wish Milibland would follow suit.

She was right to quit over an insignificant tweet, while, say, Teresa May carries on in power despite gross incompetence? The fact that you say 'Milibland' shows party tribalism and the urge to claim a scalp, not concern about actual substance.

rick_chasey

Milliband is angry because he knows that snobbishness of working class type behaviour is something labour have legitimately been accused of for a while and is one of the roots for their drop in popularity.

Basically it touched a nerve.


Working class used to be core but increasingly isn't now and that's expensive for them

il_principe

jamesco wrote:

I sure found the omnipresence of the flag wearisome while living in the US - waving the flag when it's not a flag-waving occasion is just mindless and a bad substitute for thinking; some of the state flags (Georgia, Mississippi) were especially negative. If I was living in Cyprus, the Turkish flag would definitely have some connotations.

Il Principe wrote:

She was right to quit. I just wish Milibland would follow suit.

She was right to quit over an insignificant tweet, while, say, Teresa May carries on in power despite gross incompetence? The fact that you say 'Milibland' shows party tribalism and the urge to claim a scalp, not concern about actual substance.

I'm not advocating 'flags everywhere' just find it sad that the English flag is still used as a metaphor for racism, and that a politician chooses to imply that as well.

Re Milibland - comment does not demonstrate tribalism. Plenty of voters labour or otherwise would like to see the back of him. And yes, she should have gone. Her tweet is similar to Brown's 'bigot' comment. Shows the contempt many in Labour/politics show for the electorate.

jedster

that tweet was the equivalent to plebgate in the sense that it appeared to confirm what people suspect Labour/Conservative politicians really think

Of course it appears that the pleb comment was a fraud while the tweet clearly wasn't...

She had to go to protect Labour just like Cameron abandoned his Cheap Whip.

rjsterry

Regarding flags: if someone is genuinely proud of their country and wants to demonstrate that pride by displaying a flag as the symbol of that country, they wouldn't show disrespect to that country by tying the flag to a drain pipe and letting it rot. The tweet itself was pretty open to interpretation: it was just a photo with the caption "Image from #Rochester". I think it's mostly people projecting their own prejudices about Emily Thornberry, but she really should have been able to work out how it would be received.
Just to put the election result in context, Plaid Cymru have more MPs than UKIP, so Nigel really needs to stop bragging quite so much (fat chance). But I share RC's worries about the Tories trying to out-UKIP the kippers.

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

But I share RC's worries about the Tories trying to out-UKIP the kippers.

Immediately conjures up an image of Tories done up like kippers.

debeli

There is something unpleasant about UKIP, part of which I can identify and part of which seems evocative of slightly (or less slightly) natonalistic movements of the past: BUF, BNP et al.

Nonetheless, they now have 2 seats in the Lower House and people speak in public of supporting them without fear of ridicule. That is a pity, but it has been bought and paid for by the political indifference of me and many of my generation and the perverse and misguided sense of entitlement of many within the Westminster Village.

I see UKIP as a malady, much as I saw the more mouth-foaming Thatcherite Eurosceptics in the 80s and 90s. They seemed (as UKIP now seem) to have plugged into a particularly nasty, schoolboy meanspiritedness and xenophobia that lies beneath the surface.

But the 'big' parties do not learn. The Liberals (my natural home) are unsettled and fearful. Labour have lost their rudder and not only have no leader but seem to have a front bench bereft of spark or anything other than personal ambition and avarice. The Tories may be summed up in part by the Grant Shapps (sp?) interview on Today (R4) where he spoke of working tirelessly to win back the seat but made no mention of the electorate or democracy. He was a man wanting to gain back the 'rightful property' of his party and sounded very out of touch.

I fear UKIP are more than just a fad, but I do not think they will do the damage by gaining a majority or the BoP in a hung parliament. I think they will do their damage (as they have already started to do) by modifying the line taken by other parties on immigration, EU and other topics they blather on about over their cosy, warm pints.

rolf_f

Debeli wrote:

Nonetheless, they now have 2 seats in the Lower House and people speak in public of supporting them without fear of ridicule.

People who support UKIP are a long way from not having to worry about ridicule and rightly so.

On the bright side, a Labour Conservative coalition might just work!

Initialised

bobinski

[/quote]

I'm working class and I think the f**kwits that cover their houses with england flags all year round can go f**k themselves - it's an open code for being racist, nothing more, nothing less. And I'd be pi**ed off living next door to that eyesore. I've got nothing wrong with displaying a bit of national pride for sporting or other appropriate events btw...but you wanna do it year round at least get a f**king pole.[/quote]

You want them to get a Pole to hold the flags up?!? Are these Poles the ones allowed to stay once UKIP take power?!?

andrewc3142

Reckless showed the true face of UKIP when he talked about forced repatriation of Poles (and presumably others) if they were to win an election (whatever he might claim, this is the only logical outcome of what he was saying)

jds_1981

Think manifestos come and go on parties websites - I suspect because manifestos are per election, and so unless elected, they are obsolete.
However, it was very easy to find policies on their website. To the original poster, did you try hard to find out "what the party is actually for". There are quite a few good ones in there. I list the lot below: -
http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

The following statements represent highlights of UKIP's policy announcements as made at the Doncaster Conference. More detailed announcements will be made in the run up to the 2015 General Election.
What a UKIP Government will do

Protecting jobs and increasing prosperity

- We would review all legislation and regulations from the EU (3,600 new laws since 2010) and remove those which hamper British prosperity and competitiveness.

– We would negotiate a bespoke trade agreement with the EU to enable our businesses to continue trading to mutual advantage.

– UKIP would not seek to remain in the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) or European Economic Area (EEA) while those treaties maintain a principle of free movement of labour, which prevents the UK managing its own borders.

– We would reoccupy the UK’s vacant seat at the World Trade Organisation, ensuring that we continue to enjoy ‘most favoured nation’ status in trade with the EU, as is required under WTO rules.

Repairing the UK Economy

– UKIP will increase personal allowance to the level of full-time minimum wage earnings (approx £13,500 by next election).

– Inheritance tax will be abolished.

– We will introduce a 35p income tax rate between £42,285 and £55,000, whereupon the 40p rate becomes payable.

– UKIP will set up a Treasury Commission to design a turnover tax to ensure big businesses pay a minimum floor rate of tax as a proportion of their UK turnover.

Reducing debts we leave to our grandchildren

– UKIP will leave the EU and save at least £8bn pa in net contributions.

– UKIP will cut the foreign aid budget by £9bn pa, prioritising disaster relief and schemes which provide water and inoculation against preventable diseases.

– UKIP will scrap the HS2 project which is uneconomical and unjustified.

– UKIP will abolish the Department of Energy and Climate Change and scrap green subsidies.

– UKIP will abolish the Department for Culture Media and Sport.

– UKIP will reduce Barnett Formula spending and give devolved parliaments and assemblies further tax powers to compensate.

Prioritising Education and Skills

– UKIP will introduce an option for students to take an Apprenticeship Qualification instead of four non-core GCSEs which can be continued at A-Level. Students can take up apprenticeships in jobs with certified professionals qualified to grade the progress of the student.

– Subject to academic performance UKIP will remove tuition fees for students taking approved degrees in science, medicine, technology, engineering, maths on the condition that they live, work and pay tax in the UK for five years after the completion of their degrees.

– UKIP will scrap the target of 50% of school leavers going to university.

– Students from the EU will pay the same student fee rates as International students.

– UKIP supports the principle of Free Schools that are open to the whole community and uphold British values.

– Existing schools will be allowed to apply to become grammar schools and select according to ability and aptitude. Selection ages will be flexible and determined by the school in consultation with the local authority.

– Schools will be investigated by OFSTED on the presentation of a petition to the Department for Education signed by 25% of parents or governors.

Honouring the Military Covenant

– We will resource fully our military assets and personnel.

– UKIP will guarantee those who have served in the Armed Forces for a minimum of 12 years a job in the police force, prison service or border force

– UKIP will change the points system for social housing to give priority to ex-service men and women and those returning from active service.

– A Veterans Department will bring together all veterans services to ensure servicemen and women get the after-service care they deserve.

– Veterans are to receive a Veterans’ Service Card to ensure they are fast tracked for mental health care and services, if needed.

– All entitlements will be extended to servicemen recruited from overseas.

– UKIP supports a National Service Medal for all those who have served in the armed forces.

The National Health Service

– UKIP will ensure the NHS is free at the point of delivery and time of need for all UK residents.

– We will stop further use of PFI in the NHS and encourage local authorities to buy out their PFI contracts early where this is affordable.

– We will ensure that GPs’ surgeries are open at least one evening per week, where there is demand for it.

– UKIP opposes plans to charge patients for visiting their GP.

–We will ensure that visitors to the UK, and migrants until they have paid NI for five years, have NHS-approved private health insurance as a condition of entry to the UK, saving the NHS £2bn pa. UKIP will commit to spending £200m of the £2bn saving to end hospital car parking charges in England.

– We will replace Monitor and the Care Quality Commission with elected county health boards to be more responsive scrutineers of local health services. These will be able to inspect health services and take evidence from whistle-blowers.

– UKIP opposes the sale of NHS data to third parties.

– We will ensure foreign health service professionals coming to work in the NHS are properly qualified and can speak English to a standard acceptable to the profession.

– UKIP will amend working time rules to give trainee doctors, surgeons and medics the proper environment to train and practise.

– There will be a duty on all health service staff to report low standards of care.

Controlling and managing our borders

– UKIP recognises the benefits of limited, controlled immigration.

– UKIP will leave the EU, and take back control of our borders. Work permits will be permitted to fill skills gaps in the UK jobs market.

– We will extend to EU citizens the existing points-based system for time-limited work permits. Those coming to work in the UK must have a job to go to, must speak English, must have accommodation agreed prior to their arrival, and must have NHS-approved health insurance.

– Migrants will only be eligible for benefits (in work or out of work) when they have been paying tax and NI for five years and will only be eligible for permanent residence after ten years.

– UKIP will reinstate the primary purpose rule for bringing foreign spouses and children to the UK.

– UKIP will not offer an amnesty for illegal immigrants or those gaining British passports through fraud.

– UKIP will return to the principles of the UN Convention of Refugees which serves to protect the most vulnerable.

Foreign Aid

– UKIP will target foreign aid at healthcare initiatives, inoculations against preventable diseases and clean water programmes with a much-reduced aid budget administered by the Foreign Office.

– British organisations will be offered the contracts to deliver the remaining aid following removal of the EU Procurement Directive.

Energy

– UKIP will repeal the Climate Change Act 2008 which costs the economy £18bn a year.

– UKIP supports a diverse energy market including coal, nuclear, shale gas, geo-thermal, tidal, solar, conventional gas and oil.

– We will scrap the Large Combustion Plant Directive and encourage the re-development of British power stations, as well as industrial units providing on-site power generation.

– UKIP supports the development of shale gas with proper safeguards for the local environment. Community Improvement Levy money from the development of shale gas fields will be earmarked for lower council taxes or community projects within the local authority being developed.

– There will be no new subsidies for wind farms and solar arrays.

– UKIP will abolish green taxes and charges in order to reduce fuel bills.

Agriculture and Fishing

– By leaving the EU, the UK will leave the Common Agricultural Policy. Outside the EU UKIP will institute a British Single Farm Payment for farms.

– UKIP will let the British parliament vote on GM foods.

– UKIP will leave the Common Fisheries Policy and reinstate British territorial waters.

– Foreign trawlers would have to apply for and purchase fishing permits to fish British waters when fish stocks have returned to sustainable levels.

– Food must be labelled to include the country of origin, method of production, method of slaughter, hormones and any genetic additives.

– UKIP will abolish the export of live animals for slaughter

Welfare and Childcare

– UKIP opposes the bedroom tax because it operates unfairly, penalising those who are unable to find alternative accommodation and taking insufficient account of the needs of families and the disabled.

– Child benefit is only to be paid to children permanently resident in the UK and future child benefit to be limited to the first two children only.

– UKIP will ensure there is an initial presumption of 50/50 shared parenting in child custody matters and grandparents will be given visitation rights.

– UKIP supports a simplified, streamlined welfare system and a benefit cap.

Transport

– We will scrap HS2.

– UKIP opposes tolls on public roads and will let existing contracts for running toll roads expire.

– UKIP will maintain pensioner bus passes.

– UKIP will require foreign vehicles to purchase a Britdisc, before entry to the UK, in order to contribute to the upkeep of UK roads and any lost fuel duty.

– UKIP will ensure that speed cameras are used as a deterrent and not as a revenue raiser for local authorities.

Housing and planning

– UKIP will protect the Green Belt.

– Planning rules in the NPPF will be changed to make it easier to build on brownfield sites instead of greenfield sites. Central government is to list the nationally available brownfield sites for development and issue low-interest bonds to enable decontamination.

– Houses on brownfield sites will be exempt from Stamp Duty on first sale and VAT relaxed for redevelopment of brownfield sites.

– Planning Permission for large-scale developments can be overturned by a referendum triggered by the signatures of 5% of the District or Borough electors collected within three months.

Democracy and the Constitution

– UKIP will overcome the unfairness of MPs from devolved nations voting on English-only issues.

– UKIP supports the recall of MPs as was originally promised in the Coalition Agreement, whereby 20% of the electorate in a constituency must sign a recall petition within eight weeks. The approval of MPs will not be required to initiate a recall petition.

– UKIP will introduce the Citizens’ Initiative to allow the public to initiate national referendums on issues of major public interest.

Law and Order

– UKIP will withdraw from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights.

– UKIP will reverse the government’s opt-in to EU law and justice measures, including the European Arrest Warrant and European Investigation Order. We will replace the EAW with appropriate bi-lateral agreements.

– UKIP will not give prisoners the vote.

– UKIP believes that full sentences should be served and this should be taken into account when criminals are convicted and sentenced in court. Parole should be available for good behaviour on a case-by-case basis, not systematically.

– We will repeal the Human Rights Act and replace it with a new British Bill of Rights. The interests of law-abiding citizens & victims will always take precedence over those of criminals.

Culture

– UKIP recognises and values an overarching, unifying British culture, which is open and inclusive to anyone who wishes to identify with Britain and British values, regardless of their ethnic or religious background.

– Official documents will be published in English and, where appropriate Welsh and Scots Gaelic.

– UKIP will ensure that the law is rigorously enforced in relation to ‘cultural’ practices which are illegal in Britain, such as forced marriages, FGM and so-called ‘honour killings’

– We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.

– UKIP will amend the smoking ban to give pubs and clubs the choice to open smoking rooms properly ventilated and separated from non-smoking areas.

– UKIP opposes ‘plain paper packaging’ for tobacco products and minimum pricing of alcohol.

Employment and Small Businesses

– Businesses should be able to discriminate in favour of young British workers.

– Repeal the Agency Workers Directive.

– Conduct a skills review to better inform our education system and qualifications

– Encourage councils to provide more free parking for the high street.

– Simplify planning regulations and licences for empty commercial property vacant for over a year.

– Extend the right of appeal for micro businesses against HMRC action.

What We Stand For

UKIP is a patriotic party that promotes independence: from the EU, and from government interference. We believe in free trade, lower taxes, personal freedom and responsibility.

UKIP believes in Britain becoming a democratic, self-governing country once again. This can only be achieved by getting our nation out of the European Union and reasserting the sovereignty of Parliament.

As a party we are unashamedly patriotic: we believe there is so much to be proud about Britain and the contribution it has made to the world. We believe that Britain is good enough to be an independent nation, trading and building harmonious relations with the rest of the world.

We believe Britain must get back control over its borders, so that it can welcome people with a positive contribution to make while limiting the overall numbers of migrants and keeping out those without the skills or aptitudes to be of benefit to the nation.

UKIP believes in promoting self-reliance and personal freedom from state interference. We believe the state in Britain has become too large, too expensive and too dominant over civil society.
Return Power to the UK

issues_eu.png

• A vote for UKIP is a vote to leave the EU and recover power over our national life.

• Free trade, but not political union, with our European neighbours. We are the EU’s largest export market: they depend on us for jobs - not the other way around.

• Binding local and national referenda, at the public’s request, on major issues.
Protect Our Borders

issues_immigration.png

• Regain control of our borders and of immigration - only possible by leaving the EU.

• Immigrants must financially support themselves and their dependents for 5 years. This means private health insurance (except emergency medical care), private education and private housing - they should pay into the pot before they take out of it.

• A points-based visa system and time-limited work permits.

• Proof of private health insurance must be a precondition for immigrants and tourists to enter the UK.
Rebuild Prosperity

issues_prosperity.png

• Save £55m a day in membership fees by leaving the EU and give British workers first crack at the 800,000 jobs we currently advertise to EU workers.

• No tax on the minimum wage.

• Enrol unemployed welfare claimants onto community schemes or retraining workfare programmes.

• Scrap HS2, all green taxes and wind turbine subsidies.

• Develop shale gas to reduce energy bills and free us from dependence on foreign oil and gas - place the tax revenues into a British Sovereign Wealth Fund.

• UKIP will abolish inheritance tax. Inheritance tax brings in under £4bn - less than a third of what we spend on foreign aid. The super-rich avoid it, while modest property owners get caught by it. It hits people during a time of grief and UKIP will budget in its 2015 spending plans to completely abolish this unfair death tax.

• Make cuts to foreign aid that are real and rigorous.
Safeguard Against Crime

issues_crime.png

• No cuts to front line policing.

• Make sentences mean what they say.

• No votes for prisoners - that’s what losing your liberty means.

• Prevent foreign criminals entering the UK - by re-introducing border controls that the EU forced us to abandon.

• Scrap the European Arrest Warrant, which sends British citizens to foreign jails without evidence, just to answer questions - replace it with a proper extradition system.

• Remove the UK from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights.
Care And Support For All

issues_care.png

• Open GP surgeries in the evening, for full-time workers, where there is demand.

• Locally-elected County Health Boards to inspect hospitals - to avoid another Stafford Hospital crisis.

• Prioritise social housing for people whose parents and grandparents were born locally.

• Allow the creation of new grammar schools.

• Make welfare a safety net for the needy, not a bed for the lazy. Benefits only available to those who have lived here for over 5 years.
Free Speech and Democracy

issues_democracy.png

• No to Political Correctness - it stifles free speech.

• The law of the land must apply to us all. We oppose any other system of law.

• Teach children positive messages and pride in their country. We want to unite through better integration.

UKIP is a patriotic party that believes in putting Britain first. Only UKIP will return self-government to the British people.

andrewc3142

When UKIP try to re-write history they think we're so dumb we rely on Google and don't know what's cached and can be found on Tor.

Freedom of the internet is one of the things they can't deal with.

jds_1981

andrewc3142 wrote:

When UKIP try to re-write history they think we're so dumb we rely on Google and don't know what's cached and can be found on Tor.

Freedom of the internet is one of the things they can't deal with.

Uh, you do know that Tor is generally just an anonymising service for accessing the normal internet, unless you're talking about specific Tor services, and if so, why on earth would someone save an old version of the ukip manifesto on a tor service? Worried about Nigel downing his pint and glassing them :?:

andrewc3142

I'm not at all worried about Nige glassing me - he's not exactly the peak of fitness and would probably be pissed so happy I could take care of myself just by ducking.

But why would anyone save the 2010 manifesto that set out the policies UKIP pledged to implement if elected, which presumably it wanted to be?

Dunno. Accountability? Sorry, I forgot Nige has said that what he stood for was actually a load of rubbish so it's just an "old version" now. History. Not important. Sorry those who voted for them.

And, yes, I am fully aware of what Tor is, thanks. Try finding the full version of the manifesto using Google - not the glossy pamphlet, the full, bonkers version that were just links at the end of each section. They did a pretty good job of deleting it and journos were lazy and just posted links that no longer work.

Lefthook

As a reasonably tolerant but middle of the ground(politically) person it seriously worries me the traction UKIP has got. I dont think of myself as intellectual or particularly clever, but how the f**k such a party has gathered the following it has is hard to believe.

Sure we can dismiss them as a protest vote that will disappear at the next election, but why would you not use another party as your protest, rather than this hateful lot.

It makes me despair at the level of education in this country if the voters they appeal to can't see through their rhetoric or be so short sighted to think it is the best way to vote in protest, and if they truly believe this stuff then I dont think I share enough common ground to form a country with them. I like nothing better than an argument, but you cant argue with this short sighted racist bullshit. If someone believes it then there is no changing their mind.

As the telegraph article linked to earlier articulated, we are in this mess from people voting in a self serving manor for the last few elections, how much longer will/can this go on. This modern society of me me me. I want my Ipad, house, second car, 2nd house, pony, now and screw other generations or social classes can not go on. We are no longer a society, just a collection of individuals served by politicians who just want power and privilege rather than responsibility of making a better country.

Maybe I should have posted in rants!

Lefthook

DonDaddyD wrote:

UKIP is a party designed to appeal to white people.

I dont say this to be provocative but you are in danger of coming across as racist as the people you oppose.

Your use of skin colour as the defining issue in the argument is either lazy or mistaken.

Are you right that the people UKIP are appealing to are white? Yes.

But by phrasing it like this you deliberately, I assume, simplify an argument into racist terms you are happy with. Black vs White

Which is not helpful or productive. You are almost trying to polarise rather than accept that the argument is probably more basic and at the same time more nuanced than that. It is simply Them vs Us. A political play that will appeal to the most people.

elbowloh

jds_1981 wrote:

Think manifestos come and go on parties websites - I suspect because manifestos are per election, and so unless elected, they are obsolete.
However, it was very easy to find policies on their website. To the original poster, did you try hard to find out "what the party is actually for". There are quite a few good ones in there. I list the lot below: -
http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people
The following statements represent highlights of UKIP's policy announcements as made at the Doncaster Conference. More detailed announcements will be made in the run up to the 2015 General Election.

So not only bigots but also (it would appear) climate change deniers or, at least, they don't give a flying f@ck.

bigmat

I think they are happy to jump on any populist bandwagon (and these tend to be right wing sadly). If I was going to become a politician I reckon UKIP would be a great choice - their speech writing must be a piece of ****, just telling their target audience exactly what they want to hear. Having to explain their policies to anyone who actually has a clue a bit trickier though - did anybody see Douglas Carswell on Question Time last week? The other panellists looked dumbfounded at what he was coming out with and even he seemed embarrassed trying to explain that Reckless only said immigrants should be forcibly repatriated because he was a bit "tired", and Nigel was actually pro NHS after all (ignore the last manifesto - perhaps he was tired when he OK'ed it). They are a one issue rabble, a sad reflection on mainstream politics that they have managed to do so well though.

Sewinman

It think is a shame that when people discuss UKIP they nearly always descend into bashing the party, rather than getting into the guts of what UKIP is all about and seems to have some traction with the electorate:

Do we have a problem with immigration in this country?

If the other parties tackled this question better I think it would take a lot of the wind out of the sails of UKIP. The subject makes people cringe and so it is easier to just rubbish UKIP.

warreng

I gritted my teeth and tried to engage a UKIP supporter at the weekend in a sensible discussion. One large part of the attraction for him is that it voting for that lot annoys an awful lot of people. He was really attracted to the fact that it wound me up - he was getting attention at long last - he didn't appear to care that it was negative attention. He felt that he had been excluded from politics in this country and no-one listened to him. Oh, and he's racist. He says he's not and just shouts "you can't even talk about immigration anymore in this country" when he's challenged.

bigmat

Sewinman wrote:

It think is a shame that when people discuss UKIP they nearly always descend into bashing the party, rather than getting into the guts of what UKIP is all about and seems to have some traction with the electorate:

Do we have a problem with immigration in this country?

If the other parties tackled this question better I think it would take a lot of the wind out of the sails of UKIP. The subject makes people cringe and so it is easier to just rubbish UKIP.

There may be situations where immigration hasn't been managed well, but overall I don't have a problem with it. Obviously a lot of people do, but then historically immigrants have always been a scapegoat when things aren't going well. UKIP's proposals on immigration seem wrong to me and the concern is that their existence and success seems to be pushing the mainstream parties further to the right.

Anyway, UKIP is "all about" an ego trip and a gravy train for Nigel, isn't it?!