Friday OT: The Reckless rise of UKIP!

DonDaddyD

So that votevote and that tweet.

What do you make of it? A significant win, the forth party in Politics cementing its place?

1. The vote worries me, it seems that any of the three parties do not know what to do with UKIP as the party seemingly has the potential to appeal to just about every white British person irrespective of class. People are bored, angry, frustrated with many things and UKIP appears to be a venting outlet for many. And in that is the worry, while a protest vote can be useful people seemingly forget the true intentions of the party and also what might follow in their wake. UKIP aren't about fairness, political correctness, eliminating prejudice/racism/fascism/sexism. They aren't about building better public services, or improving healthcare. There is something quite Darwin about the party - that if they were to get into power the economy and our services would be a free for all where only the fit survive.

Seriously though, everyone can tell me what UKIP is against but they cannot tell me definitively what the party is actually for?

2. That tweet simply proves how far removed our current crop of politicians are. Yes, sometimes when I see the Union Jack/St George's cross outside someone's house I get a little weary. I do think at worse "BNP/NF and at best Yob/Football hooligan". However, I am acutely aware that these are my prejudices born from previous experience and keep them buried deep and at least give the person/s the benefit of the doubt. What I don't do is voice them and the tweet just harks back to the counter snobbery that existed under Labour where anything posh, patriotic, middle/upper class was sneered and jeered at.

Discuss.

davis

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also, what does UKIP stand for? I know what they are against - Europe, mostly - but what are they actually for?

You are John Major AICMFP.

anonymousblackfg

A fair vote to send a message that just how out of touch the main parties are. as proved by that tweet! I share her amusement but I am not claiming to represent to prolatariat from my £3m Islington mansion. Off the back of this I see them making a pretty good showing in next year's election and then we're all screwed as the Daily Fail will run the country.

I did quite like the idea that only 300 people bothered with the Lib Dem's, means my useless MP is proper fcuked but i'm not sure there is anything better out there to replace him.

rick_chasey

DonDaddyD wrote:

What do you make of it?

Pretty depressing isn't it?

bompington

DonDaddyD wrote:

I know what they are against - Europe, mostly - but what are they actually for?

This is the crux of the matter. As far as I can see there is a wide variety of opinions, and I would reasonably expect them to disintegrate sooner or later because of it.

Similarly, the whole story is not really about the rise of UKIP, they're just the handy place to put people's anger - it's about the fall of the traditional parties. I'm fairly confident that UKIP won't actually cause too much harm in the medium to long term, but the uselessness of the big three is more of a concern.

bompington

As for the tweet - a bit harsh response from Milliband, but of course Thornberry got it in the neck for slipping up and actually revealing openly what most left-wingers think of the lower classes in private.

leeefm

I think in many respects it doesn't matter what UKIP are for. They're riding on the back of a rising tide of voter dissatisfaction with the larger parties, and what seems to be hype over immigration (I say hype, because it is notoriously difficult to get an actual clear picture of what the effects of immigration actually are).

It seems that a lot of people are scared of what UKIP may stand for. IMO I think we need to be more scared about the fact that the British electorate seem to want to back them.

(I'm a second generation immigrant)

rick_chasey

My main concern is the Tory response will be to head further to the right and put them on a collision course with a Brexit.

Ultimately your view on that depends on your take on how beneficial or costly a Brexit will be.

Unsurprisingly I think it would be fairly cataclysmic, and not just for my own job!

cookeeemonster

bompington wrote:

As for the tweet - a bit harsh response from Milliband, but of course Thornberry got it in the neck for slipping up and actually revealing openly what most left-wingers think of the lower classes in private.

I'm working class and I think the f**kwits that cover their houses with england flags all year round can go f**k themselves - it's an open code for being racist, nothing more, nothing less. And I'd be pi**ed off living next door to that eyesore. I've got nothing wrong with displaying a bit of national pride for sporting or other appropriate events btw...but you wanna do it year round at least get a f**king pole.

The people that vote UKIP will be the first to suffer, and suffer badly should they ever get into power. That's the only small, tiny comfort I get from all this.

And should they get into power I'll seriously consider never buying a tv license again...non stop publicity for a tiny minority party denied to others (Greens) has put them into power here. They're worse than the raving loonys for their polices yet get millions in taxpayer funded publicity.

anonymousblackfg

For the DT, this was quite good, says a lot why UKIT are getting good levels of support from those with gray hair.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking ... rewed.html

ben-----

> A fair vote to send a message that just how out of touch the main parties are.

People shouldn't vote for something that's even worse. If what's on offer doesn't satisfy, don't vote.

il_principe

CookeeeMonster wrote:

bompington wrote:

As for the tweet - a bit harsh response from Milliband, but of course Thornberry got it in the neck for slipping up and actually revealing openly what most left-wingers think of the lower classes in private.

I'm working class and I think the f**kwits that cover their houses with england flags all year round can go f**k themselves - it's an open code for being racist, nothing more, nothing less. And I'd be pi**ed off living next door to that eyesore. I've got nothing wrong with displaying a bit of national pride for sporting or other appropriate events btw...but you wanna do it year round at least get a f**king pole.

Oh come on. So basically you can't display the England flag without being labeled racist? How depressing is that. I'm tempted to fly a flag at home. If you visit America or Turkey you'll see the National flag on display all over the place, but without the negative connotations.

She was right to quit. I just wish Milibland would follow suit.

il_principe

anonymousblackfg wrote:

For the DT, this was quite good, says a lot why UKIT are getting good levels of support from those with gray hair.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking ... rewed.html

Fantastic article.

cookeeemonster

Il Principe wrote:

anonymousblackfg wrote:

For the DT, this was quite good, says a lot why UKIT are getting good levels of support from those with gray hair.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking ... rewed.html

Fantastic article.

YUP, +1

elbowloh

This is the UKIP manifesto I believe

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1398869254/EuroManifestoLaunch.pdf?1398869254

It has nothing in it apart from leaving the EU.

So feck knows what they would do if they actually got into government. Those who have voted for them literally have no idea what they have voted for.

bompington

Let me get it right, that article is basically saying that under 30s are in poverty because most young people living in London can't afford to buy a house?
When I were a lad, most people of any age, anywhere couldn't afford to buy a house. 'ome to us were a... zzzz............

cookeeemonster

Il Principe wrote:

CookeeeMonster wrote:

bompington wrote:

As for the tweet - a bit harsh response from Milliband, but of course Thornberry got it in the neck for slipping up and actually revealing openly what most left-wingers think of the lower classes in private.

I'm working class and I think the f**kwits that cover their houses with england flags all year round can go f**k themselves - it's an open code for being racist, nothing more, nothing less. And I'd be pi**ed off living next door to that eyesore. I've got nothing wrong with displaying a bit of national pride for sporting or other appropriate events btw...but you wanna do it year round at least get a f**king pole.

Oh come on. So basically you can't display the England flag without being labeled racist? How depressing is that. I'm tempted to fly a flag at home. If you visit America or Turkey you'll see the National flag on display all over the place, but without the negative connotations.

She was right to quit. I just wish Milibland would follow suit.

I don't believe for a second that (most) people who fly these flags all year round are doing so out of national pride and nothing else. It would be good if they did...but we're not America or Turkey and these people send out a very clear message...and they're most often found in crapholes like where I live where the people have a habit of voting BNP (and now probably UKIP) and the like...there's no coincidence.

Maybe I was over the top in my first post, and I've flown the flag before for the world cup etc...and I also have known people who are genuinely patriotic without being a bigot...but they seem few and far between for me. Shouldn't be that way, but it seems to be the way. I may be wrong though, hopefully I am.

Someone pointed out something on twitter that made me laugh: The BBC are delibrately doing this to make the tories lose the next election (that bloody left wing bias again )

gingaman

Il Principe wrote:

anonymousblackfg wrote:

For the DT, this was quite good, says a lot why UKIT are getting good levels of support from those with gray hair.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking ... rewed.html

Fantastic article.

Fantastic article, indeed, but needs a better proofreader

veronese68

Il Principe wrote:

anonymousblackfg wrote:

For the DT, this was quite good, says a lot why UKIT are getting good levels of support from those with gray hair.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking ... rewed.html

Fantastic article.

Yes very good. Didn't a UKIP spokeswoman say something about why they didn't do well in London because young and educated people wouldn't vote for them?

vermin

DonDaddyD wrote:

the party seemingly has the potential to appeal to just about every white British person irrespective of class.

Why, because we're all racists? Not cool.

Ben6899

DonDaddyD wrote:

it seems that any of the three parties do not know what to do with UKIP as the party seemingly has the potential to appeal to just about every white British person irrespective of class.

Be careful making those types of claims.

bigmat

I've seen black guys marching with the BNP - anything is possible. I hate it when people are selective in their quest for "equality".

DonDaddyD

leeefm wrote:

I think in many respects it doesn't matter what UKIP are for. They're riding on the back of a rising tide of voter dissatisfaction with the larger parties, and what seems to be hype over immigration (I say hype, because it is notoriously difficult to get an actual clear picture of what the effects of immigration actually are).

It seems that a lot of people are scared of what UKIP may stand for. IMO I think we need to be more scared about the fact that the British electorate seem to want to back them.

(I'm a second generation immigrant)

I completely agree. Having said that the impact of EU immigration on me is this:

"Where are you from?"
"England"
"No, where are you really from?"
"London"
"Yes, but where are your parents from?"

And this conversation with a person from "mainland Europe" (normally the eastern most parts) continues until our frustrations reach a crescendo and the conversation ends. And you know what, its not the initial question that is rude it is the assumption that I simply cannot be from this Country - I've been to France more times than I have Jamaica and as much as I'm proud of my ethnic background I have more legal right to live in a EU Country than I do in Africa or Jamaica.

At the same time - a white lady, UKIP voter, shouted at me and told me F-off home. At which point I told her to study geography because I'm already am.

Rick Chasey wrote:

My main concern is the Tory response will be to head further to the right

Labour, it's language at least, appears to be doing the same. Talking about tackling immigration and the like.

vermin wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

the party seemingly has the potential to appeal to just about every white British person irrespective of class.

Why, because we're all racists? Not cool.

I didn't say that. I said it has the potential to appeal to just about every white British person irrespective of class. Bottom line is this:

UKIP is a party designed to appeal to white people.

It doesn't appeal to the majority of ethnic minorities, how could it? You may get the odd fool, but if the party wants to stop EU immigration what do you think it wants to do with immigrants from Countries where they have darker skin tones?

So that's their core voter - white English/British people.

Support for the party doesn't seem bound by class - like Labour used to be 'the working mans party'. UKIPs support isn't limited to that.

Il Principe wrote:

She was right to quit. I just wish Milibland would follow suit.

Agreed. The only silver lining is that Ed loses, steps down and Chuka Ummuna challenges and wins the Labour leadership. I like his brand of 'Blue Labour'.

warreng

I am completely depressed by the rise of UKIP. I find it really sad that the main political parties, due to their shortsightedness and incompetence have fostered an environment where a racist demagogue like Farage can flourish.

I've lost friends because of this, or more accurately removed myself from social circles where it now seems ok to be a backward looking, hatefilled, bigot

That tweet was an irrelevance - the real story is we are close to having these people having a real influence in this country

pblakeney

WarrenG wrote:

That tweet was an irrelevance - the real story is we are close to having these people having a real influence in this country

Nigel Farage or Emily Thornberry?
Either prospect fills me with dread.

BigJimmyB

DonDaddyD wrote:

UKIP is a party designed to appeal to white people.
It doesn't appeal to the majority of ethnic minorities, how could it?

I would imagine there are as many non-white UK citizens who would be concerned by:

1 Unchecked immigration (and to repeat an earlier post, stats on this vary wildly according to who's presenting them)
2 Benefits being paid out too soon/too easily, whilst being restricted to / withdrawn from existing UK citizens
3 Being 'ruled' by a central European government

What I suspect many people would like to see is that immigrants (regardless of nationality and race):

A Are of value to us (i.e. enhance our collective skillset and enrich us culturally) and/or
B Need our help and assistance (asylum etc)

I'd support any party who supported and acted upon this view.

The problem (as has already been stated) is that beyond such policies, there is little substance to UKIP, which is why they are unsuitable to run this country.

Where that leaves us, looking at the other 'big' 3, I don't know - screwed I guess

BTW - "majority of ethnic minorities" - who are the minority of ethnic minorities that UKIP would appeal to? Just curious...

vermin

DonDaddyD wrote:

UKIP is a party designed to appeal to white people.

It's not though, is it. It's designed to appeal to racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, nimbyists and any other form of biggot you care to mention. This is not a skin colour thing. This is a charter for the anti-socialists - the selfish society. To suggest that such people might belong to one race or one traditional social strata is ridiculous and extremely naive at best; racist and biggoted at worst.

rick_chasey

What will affect us isn't UKIP but the Tory response to UKIP.

The better UKIP do, the more likely a Brexit is, and that's the issue.

What the blue rinse brigade in Kent want is probably fairly trivial on a national level. The Westminster response to them however isn't.

The Tories greatest divider is still over a Brexit. Some foam at the mouth about it, others really really want to be part of the EU.

The more successful UKIP are, the more influence the foamers will have.

jedster

What are UKIP for?

They are a party that provides a "home" for people who wish which we could turn the clock back 30 years. I'm not making this up, YouGov found 85% of UKIP supporters thought Britain was better 30 years ago and wish we could go back. As I remember it was no more than about 20% for other parties.

UKIP supporters are also much more pessimistic about the future.

It provides a voice for those who feel "stop the World I want to get off". Unfortunately nothing can be done to make these people happy.

Race and immigration is part of this, for some it is about pressure on services, housing etc. But in reality for many, they just don't like seeing shops with Polish signs down a street where they used to feel more at home.

bompington

jedster wrote:

...thought Britain was better 30 years ago and wish we could go back...

As far as I can remember, the nostalgia was so much better back in the 80s

cookeeemonster

I definately get too wound up by things like this (and cyclist bashing in the media, etc etc etc). Sometimes I feel the need to step back and remember 'I'm alright jack' and chill out a bit.

I'll do whatever action I can within reason to make things right (in this case, voting is the main thing I can do) and leave it at that. It may be an unfair world out there...but there are plenty of great bits and great people

ps. Early 80's nostalgia is better than late 80's...unless you include acid house which was great! )