Turbo training to increase sustained power

CptKernow

So, like it says in the title - I'm wondering what might be the best turbo sessions to improve my overall power / speed? FTP I suppose, not that I have a power meter.

Ideally it would be something I could do couple of times a week for half hr to 1hr.
In the past I've done short intervals, but nothing consistent enough to really see the benefit. Plus I was never sure the intervals were suited to what I wanted.

I'll still aim to get in some road miles but would like something intense and measurable just to see some gains.

Thanks

alphacharlie

I have used "sufferfest" videos for the past few years whilst on the turbo but recently signed up to,

http://www.turbotraining.co.uk/

and have done some races and workouts on there. Its certainly different to the Suffer stuff and gives a virtual power reading and FTP figure if you have ANT+ sensors and an antenna in the computer

Alex_Simmons/RST

CptKernow wrote:

So, like it says in the title - I'm wondering what might be the best turbo sessions to improve my overall power / speed? FTP I suppose, not that I have a power meter.

Ideally it would be something I could do couple of times a week for half hr to 1hr.
In the past I've done short intervals, but nothing consistent enough to really see the benefit. Plus I was never sure the intervals were suited to what I wanted.

I'll still aim to get in some road miles but would like something intense and measurable just to see some gains.

Thanks

How are you planning to measure improvement?

Training is an integral of all you do, not just what one session per week contains. What that one sessions consists of will depend on the rest of your training and you main development needs, so it could be short hard stuff, or longer tempo effort, or multiples of 10-20 minutes efforts at or near long time trial pace/effort. Or a mix.

There is no such thing as the one best session.

bahzob

I'll repeat my advice. It's a lot easier to train if you follow a consistent plan. It gives every workout a purpose and allows you to monitor progress.

IMO the best for most cyclists who have to combine work with training is Time Crunched Cyclist. It is especially suited for turbos as the key sessions are short and intense. There are a number of 12 week plans suited to a range of abilities. Just choose one that is suitable, follow it and I can pretty much guarantee you will see progress. Also you will have gained an invaluable set of information on which to build.

supermurph09

bahzob wrote:

I'll repeat my advice. It's a lot easier to train if you follow a consistent plan. It gives every workout a purpose and allows you to monitor progress.

IMO the best for most cyclists who have to combine work with training is Time Crunched Cyclist. It is especially suited for turbos as the key sessions are short and intense. There are a number of 12 week plans suited to a range of abilities. Just choose one that is suitable, follow it and I can pretty much guarantee you will see progress. Also you will have gained an invaluable set of information on which to build.

I'm on week 3 of the Time Crunched "New Competitor" plan, I'm really enjoying the workouts. If you click on the link on my signature you can read my blog about it. But essentially I'm doing 60 mins Tuesday, 60 mins Thursday, 90 mins on Saturday and Sundays. You can of course alter and adapt. It's really working for me in terms of training time and keeping focussed, the sessions are easy to follow to which is a bonus. I do have a power meter but you can also do based on heart rate.

iPete

Does anyone have any kind of plan that fits around commuting 19 miles 8-10 times per week and doing turbo in the evenings?

Bearing in mind, its very stop start riding and structuring the commute beyond pootle mode or hammer time is difficult.

supermurph09

iPete wrote:

Does anyone have any kind of plan that fits around commuting 19 miles 8-10 times per week and doing turbo in the evenings?

Bearing in mind, its very stop start riding and structuring the commute beyond pootle mode or hammer time is difficult.

There is a commuter programme in the time crunch cycling book.

LeighM

I'm 4 weeks in to http://www.trainerroad.com, so far very impressed.

If you've not got a PM, it uses a Virtual Power curve, based your trainer model. Stores history and charts progress as your FTP increases over time.

There's a dedicated thread here: The Official TrainerRoad Thread

CptKernow

Not sure I got the short, direct answer I was hoping for but it has made me think about giving one of the online training programs a go. I have cadence / HR monitors so have just ordered an ant+ stick. I like the idea of virtual power calculated from the trainer model.
I'm sure it isn't 100% accurate but it sounds like a pretty good start - and gives me something "measurable" to aim for.

FatTed

I have read that the 2 X 20 min intervals may be what you are looking for. 3 weeks on 1 week off test FTP and start again. http://www.centurytraining.com/2x20-intervals/

Alex_Simmons/RST

Be careful with plans that place undue focus on short hard efforts, supra threshold efforts. Fitness gains tend to plateau much more quickly, and mentally it's very difficult to sustain such training over more than a handful of weeks.

Such sessions should be used judiciously and timed appropriately. You also need to take some time to learn about what sort of training you best respond to (and that can change with fitness). Some people don't do as well on a regular diet of threshold and supra threshold work, but can be better off with more volume of work at solid sub-threshold levels.

napoleond

I was doing a lot of these trainer road type sessions for the two years after breaking my back, but I was still struggling. I had good top end but was crap of I went out for a longer ride. Eventually I had a test done at Sportstest and it confirmed that I had a good anaerobic capacity but absolutely feck all aerobic. I went anaerobic at 140bpm! This was in Feb.

Since then I've been working on my base with sweetspot efforts thrown in twice every eight days. My progress has been great! I'm now doing 'zone 2' endurance sessions at almost the same power as my FTP was in Feb. Plus it's sustainable. I had a retest in Oct to reset my training zones, BIG improvements made. Now anaerobic at 154bpm. Will test again on Jan.

Basically, I found just doing the high intensity stuff was doing nowt for me, I was plateauing, getting fed up and starting to resent my bike. Now I'm happy, motivated and look forward to my sessions as I can see the improvements coming.
YMMV...

I'm almost exclusively on the turbo at the moment, the longest I've managed is 3 hours. I use Cycleops virtual training with a power meter, it's fantastic!

jgsi

NapoleonD wrote:

I was doing a lot of these trainer road type sessions for the two years after breaking my back, but I was still struggling. I had good top end but was crap of I went out for a longer ride. Eventually I had a test done at Sportstest and it confirmed that I had a good anaerobic capacity but absolutely feck all aerobic. I went anaerobic at 140bpm! This was in Feb.

Since then I've been working on my base with sweetspot efforts thrown in twice every eight days. My progress has been great! I'm now doing 'zone 2' endurance sessions at almost the same power as my FTP was in Feb. Plus it's sustainable. I had a retest in Oct to reset my training zones, BIG improvements made. Now anaerobic at 154bpm. Will test again on Jan.

Basically, I found just doing the high intensity stuff was doing nowt for me, I was plateauing, getting fed up and starting to resent my bike. Now I'm happy, motivated and look forward to my sessions as I can see the improvements coming.
YMMV...

I'm almost exclusively on the turbo at the moment, the longest I've managed is 3 hours. I use Cycleops virtual training with a power meter, it's fantastic!

This Training Peaks blog article backs you up as well, and as you are going to the trouble of actually being 'tested', you are not an anecdote ;-)
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/arti ... -threshold

bahzob

JGSI wrote:

This Training Peaks blog article backs you up as well, and as you are going to the trouble of actually being 'tested', you are not an anecdote ;-)
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/arti ... -threshold

Sorry but it doesn't necessarily. It is quite precise in recommending extended time in Zone 2 , by which it means 80-90% of lactate threshold http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/how-proper-training-affects-lactate-threshold-heart-rate

This is quite a hard level of effort, especially if sustained, as it should be, over a number of hours. e.g. in my case it's around 240-260W which is what I would be aiming to do a 100TT at in which case it leads to a 25mph+ average. So not at all easy.

"Base" by contrast is a much less precise term and is often taken to include much lower intensity work. While this may help adaptation it will not necessarily do so with the same effect as or as efficiently (in terms of time spent vs benefit) as true Zone 2. While Nap seems to be training at true "Zone 2" he is the exception rather than the rule. For most base = "long and easy".

As for "sweetspot", it is fine and I use it as a mainstay of training myself. However the article you state does not mention this nor does it say you should avoid threshold altogether. Just get the balance right.

If you want to get "better" that means, eventually you have to increase FTP. In this case the first law of training applies.

Specificity states that if you want to increase FTP you have to work at FTP or above. Sweetspot won't do this, what it will do, as Naps post says, is increase the power*time you can spend in zones less than threshold.

This is great but implies, as for Nap that you have plateaued or chosen for other reasons (e.g. winter) not to push FTP.

This explicitly not what the OP wanted. If he and others actually want to increase FTP then they need to spend time doing sessions at or above FTP.

The issue is what to balance this training with in terms of zone 2 or otherwise. This is the "polarised" training debate which is ongoing atm. While it hasn't reached a conclusion all involved do agree to improve FTP/VO2 high intensity work is necessary. Question is just how much how often and how much none threshold work should be included.

e.g. http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2014/10/polarized-training-update.html WARNING: this study, sadly, does not do a very good job of defining its terms. What it calls "threshold" is what we would call "sweetspot". Still it shows, as would be expected from Nap and the "specificity" rule that spending 12 weeks training hard short of threshold "slightly improved their work economies (how much energy they used) at AnT but otherwise had no significant changes in physiology or performance".

napoleond

Yeah I have to say, my Zone 2 rides are not a picnic!
At the moment I do 3 sessions then a day off, two of the sessions at Z2 and one at Sweetspot, recovery or an unstructured ride based on how I feel. The key sessions being the Z2 ones.

jgsi

The proof will be in the pudding for me anyways... come February and a couple of hard reliabilities ... see if I am still able hold it with the fast group and then the first couple of races in March.
I am making a concerted effort to train at whatever numbers arbitrarily you give them but in my own words endurance and tempo. Actually quite please with being able to log over 10 hours per week training at the moment thats good for me. The plus side above all as Nap mentions... still motivated to do the hours.. and yes training at that level doesnt mean picnic rides either, fully agree.

Tom Dean

bahzob wrote:

Specificity states that if you want to increase FTP you have to work at FTP or above. Sweetspot won't do this, what it will do, as Naps post says, is increase the power*time you can spend in zones less than threshold.

This is rubbish. If you want to give oversimplistic advice, at least try to keep it brief.

Alex_Simmons/RST

bahzob wrote:

This explicitly not what the OP wanted. If he and others actually want to increase FTP then they need to spend time doing sessions at or above FTP.

I've seen many people attain large and consistent improvements in threshold power while rarely riding at or above such a level for months.

Indeed there are some people who's FTP responds poorly to such higher intensity training and see greater gains by riding more volumes of solid sub-threshold work instead. Likewise, there are those for whom a good regular doses of training at threshold and above works really well.

But it is by no means a given that training to improve FTP = riding at or above FTP. It's a big mistake to think that.

Of course at some stage you have to lift the power, but when that's appropriate and how you go about that differs for everyone.

Alex_Simmons/RST

bahzob wrote:

JGSI wrote:

This Training Peaks blog article backs you up as well, and as you are going to the trouble of actually being 'tested', you are not an anecdote ;-)
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/arti ... -threshold

Sorry but it doesn't necessarily. It is quite precise in recommending extended time in Zone 2 , by which it means 80-90% of lactate threshold http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/how-proper-training-affects-lactate-threshold-heart-rate

This is quite a hard level of effort, especially if sustained, as it should be, over a number of hours. e.g. in my case it's around 240-260W which is what I would be aiming to do a 100TT at in which case it leads to a 25mph+ average. So not at all easy.

I'd need to know a little more about their zones, and that was an item about running not cycling, and it's HR not power, so with all those caveats keep in mind that the power at lactate threshold is an intensity around 10-15% lower than FTP.

So this would be riding at 80-90% of your what you HR is when riding at a power around 85-90% of your FTP. I'd suggest that would be somewhat easier than you do, although it's still quality work.

chrisw12

Tom Dean wrote:

bahzob wrote:

Specificity states that if you want to increase FTP you have to work at FTP or above. Sweetspot won't do this, what it will do, as Naps post says, is increase the power*time you can spend in zones less than threshold.

This is rubbish. If you want to give oversimplistic advice, at least try to keep it brief.

For me, in theory, this makes sense but I'm reading of too many good cyclists that manage to raise their ftp from the bottom so to speak. Then you throw in two people here that say it isn't necessarily so as well. :?

Great thread on the tt forum started by bbar winner Tops on this.

napoleond

My FTP has increased a fair bit, as has my 5 min power. I used to do a test on my '5 min hill', used to take me about 5.30 to 6 mins at best, around 360w. Last time I tried having been doing this training program, which was in June, it was 4.45 and 400w. I could've kept going a fair bit longer at that too! Had to find a new 5 min hill!

dinyull

FatTed wrote:

I have read that the 2 X 20 min intervals may be what you are looking for. 3 weeks on 1 week off test FTP and start again. http://www.centurytraining.com/2x20-intervals/

Can I ask why 3 weeks on, 1 week off?

Only reason I ask is since the clocks changed I've replaced my mid-week rides with 2 x 20 intervals on the turbo and I've been doing 3 sessions a week for the past 7 weeks.

mamba80

bahzob wrote:

Sorry but it doesn't necessarily. It is quite precise in recommending extended time in Zone 2 , by which it means 80-90% of lactate threshold http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/how-proper-training-affects-lactate-threshold-heart-rate

This is quite a hard level of effort, especially if sustained, as it should be, over a number of hours. e.g. in my case it's around 240-260W which is what I would be aiming to do a 100TT at in which case it leads to a 25mph+ average. So not at all easy.

I don't understand this, r u saying your main stream z2 training is also your 100 mile tt pace? @25mph+ ? the recent winner of the Nat 100tt managed 3.43hrs - I am guessing these guys were not riding in z2 ?

If your not a regular tester, you should be, that is truly unbelievable and something for the rest of us to aspire to.

napoleond

It's about the same to me, I'd say my Z2 is about 100m Tt pace.

FatTed

Dinyull wrote:

FatTed wrote:

I have read that the 2 X 20 min intervals may be what you are looking for. 3 weeks on 1 week off test FTP and start again. http://www.centurytraining.com/2x20-intervals/

Can I ask why 3 weeks on, 1 week off?

Only reason I ask is since the clocks changed I've replaced my mid-week rides with 2 x 20 intervals on the turbo and I've been doing 3 sessions a week for the past 7 weeks.

No idea just repeating what I have read, I think one has to balance effort with rest thats all