Saddle fore/aft/tilt

rowlers

I'm fed up with saddles and think I must be a freak.
Every saddle I've tried (Romin/Toupe/SLR/Arione/Aliante/Spoon/SQlabs 611/Rido currently on trial and prob others), I always get the feeling that I'm falling forward into the bars (pelvis seems to roll forward onto perineum).
I'm flexible and I don't feel stretched out.
I have my saddle height so I'm comfortable, I could probably go higher/or lower slightly if needed.
I have have approx 4'' drop from saddle to bars.
I have tried to rule out reach by trying an inline seatpost and saddle full forward (and back), didn't seem to make much difference..
I get a little bit of pressure in my hands, as I feel like I need push myself back into the saddle all the time, but no pain as such.
Any wisdom?

Dippydog3

Simple physics. If your bars are 4" lower than the saddle of course you are falling forward. Draw the triangle from seat to bars to shoulders.

The only thing that supports this tilted triangle is your core strength and weight taken by your feet. If you have a weak core, or your saddle is too far back, or too high then the pelvis will roll forwards.

rowlers

Cheers, sounds like I'm over complicating things a bit, in the search for the perfect saddle I'm getting myself in a muddle. Sitting upright, hands off bars, I can peddle and maintain balance, it's only when on the bars, so maybe your right.

Max P

Plenty of online guides to get saddle height correct depending on formulas or start with straight leg when heel on pedal and work from there. Fore/aft position determined by the old plumb line from just below knee cap to spindle - this is not the way to adjust reach; top tube and stem are for this. Saddle level is spot on for more although a very slight downwards tilt if anything.

If you find all saddles generally uncomfortable I'd look at better quality bibs with higher spec chamois too - makes a huge difference.

JayKosta

rowlers wrote:

Cheers, sounds like I'm over complicating things a bit, in the search for the perfect saddle I'm getting myself in a muddle. Sitting upright, hands off bars, I can peddle and maintain balance, it's only when on the bars, so maybe your right.

===================
Yes, if the drop from saddle to bars is excessive for you, then adjustments to the saddle position won't resolve the problem.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

madasahattersley

Oh lord the misinformation..

Dippydog3 wrote:

Simple physics. If your bars are 4" lower than the saddle of course you are falling forward. Draw the triangle from seat to bars to shoulders.

The only thing that supports this tilted triangle is your core strength and weight taken by your feet. If you have a weak core, or your saddle is too far back, or too high then the pelvis will roll forwards.

None of this is true. If you reach out your hand in front of you and lean forwards without falling over then as if by magic you will have stuck your bum out to the rear to compensate. The further forward you lean (in this case the further forward/lower the bars are) the further back your bum goes to counteract you falling forwards.

If "the only thing that supports this tilted triangle is core strength" then how come it's possible to ride for hours and hours with no back/abdominal fatique when your set up is right? If core strength was the only thing keep you up then riding for 8 hours would be as hard as holding a plank for 8 hours, i.e almost impossible.

Also, how could your saddle being too far back cause your "pelvis to roll forward"? If you get the furthest set back seatpost you can find and slam saddle back on it then you will not be bearing much weight on your hands at all. your pelvis certainly won't be rolling forwards, if anything it will be rolling backwards.

OP - short of consulting a professional the next best option is to join Steve Hogg's website for a small fee and spend hours reading all his articles (I have done this).

You are fundamentally unstable on the bike at the minute. In my opinion this is likely to be saddle height (too high), saddle setback (too far forward), handlebars (maybe too low but raising them doesn't address the problem) or saddle tilt (don't be afraid to tilt your saddle up slightly for fear of looking silly). The problem could also come from your feet believe it or not but that's more complicated stuff that you really need a pro to look at.

Unfortunately that's all guesswork without physically seeing you and the way you ride and your personal level of function on a bike.

I would urge you to ignore all the posts above.

Max P

madasahattersley wrote:

Oh lord the misinformation...

blah

blah

blah...

I would urge you to ignore all the posts above.

Gosh, that's rather a sweeping and dare I say, rude, post.

madasahattersley

Max P wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Oh lord the misinformation...

blah

blah

blah...

I would urge you to ignore all the posts above.

Gosh, that's rather a sweeping and dare I say, rude, post.

I apologise for speaking frankly.

Dippydog3

madasahattersley wrote:

Max P wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Oh lord the misinformation...

blah

blah

blah...

I would urge you to ignore all the posts above.

Gosh, that's rather a sweeping and dare I say, rude, post.

I apologise for speaking frankly.

and failing to read what was written. Whatever. This is not rocket science and no amount of complicated stuff can change the basics.

The shoulders arms and seat form a traingle.
The weight of this triangle is supported by your seat and your hands.
The weight on your seat and hands is relieved a little by being taken up by your feet on the pedals, but as they are rotating this is not huge and can vary. Thats why cyclists sometimes stop pedalling and unload their rear ends by taking more weight on their feet.
If you rotate the triangle by lowering one point (the hands), the upper body rotates a little, which will include the pelvis trying to rotate, and more weight will be on the hands.
A strong core can resist this weight movement. It does so in exactly the same way as if you took it to an extreme by lifting your hands off the bars and keeping your torso in the same position.

Of course a proper bike fit can help optimise things, but dont expect miracles. Last time I looked I dont recall any bike fitter promising to change the laws of physics.

tomisitt

On a correctly set up road bike, 45% of your weight is carried on the saddle, 35% is carried on the handlebars, and 20% is on the pedals. If you aren't "falling forwards" onto the bars there would be something wrong, or you'd be riding a Dutch commuter bike or a Raleigh Chopper.

Your fore/saddle adjustment must be dictated by your position relative to the bottom bracket, and nothing else. With that set, you can adjust the tilt by a degree or two if necessary.

lakesluddite

Rowlers - have you had a bike fit done?

I'm not sure about what is available over there way out West, but if you can get to Staveley just North of Kendal, then these guys do a bike fit service - my other half has seen them and they also do the Wheelbase team fits as well (as they are in the same trading estate as Wheelbase - worth a visit if you do come over, and Wilf's Cafe as well!).

http://www.thebodyrehab.co.uk/

I think the rates are fairly reasonable for what they provide. They sorted my back out a while back, although that wasn't cycle related.

rafletcher

madasahattersley wrote:

Max P wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Oh lord the misinformation...

blah

blah

blah...

I would urge you to ignore all the posts above.

Gosh, that's rather a sweeping and dare I say, rude, post.

I apologise for speaking frankly.

Mention of needing core strength seems to get your goat

What makes you the expert? Because you've found a website that fits your prejudices it seems.

FWIW I do think that core strength is importatnt, but not necessarily the cause of the OP's issue. Rolling the pelvis back is one of those things the pros learn early on, and can do naturally. To others it's more difficult, especially when you get tired.

I think a bike fit (choose you're own flavour, I had a Retul fit) may help. I had one (after quite a few years cycling) and my saddle height came down significantly - which made my quads hurt initially, but means I no longer get a sore Achilles after say 3 consecutive days of 50+ miles (which is a lot for me).

pinno

No one has mentioned top tube length. If it's too long for you, no amount of stem length and saddle position...

DIY bike fit that you can do yourself:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/Store/catalog/fitCalculatorBike.jsp

There are 3 main fits. 'Competitive fit', The 'Eddy fit' and the 'French fit' - depending on what you want to do. The French fit is the most relaxed. Try doing the DIY bike fit, make some adjustments if possible and then go and consult a professional fitting service if that doesn't work.
Everybody is physiologically different.

bahzob

In terms of long term payback getting a good bike fit is probably the best single investment you can make. The cost will be recouped if it saves one useless purchase quite apart from the pain and aggravation. The same rider on a well fitted basic £500 aluminium bike will ride further/faster/more comfortably than on badly fitting £10k one.

The OP + following above provides pretty clear evidence of this. Given the wide disparity in terms of physical build.capacity * cycling objectives * effects of any long term injuries it's next to impossible to get any definitive help from threads on a forum.

OP I'd suggest finding a good bike fitter and using their services. Their fit should include you actually riding a bike at your normal effort levels. (Some simply use a tape measure, avoid them).

rowlers

Thanks to all replies. I think it really is that I had the bars a little too low for long term comfort. Generally it was fine, but it was causing pressure issues. This is why I don't get the pressure on my winter bike as it set up for more comfort and most saddles seem to work on.
Playing around on the turbo the Rido and SQlabs saddles seem to do a go job.

Max P

pinarello001 wrote:

No one has mentioned top tube length. If it's too long for you, no amount of stem length and saddle position...

Yes, they have.

Max P wrote:

Plenty of online guides to get saddle height correct depending on formulas or start with straight leg when heel on pedal and work from there. Fore/aft position determined by the old plumb line from just below knee cap to spindle - this is not the way to adjust reach; top tube and stem are for this. Saddle level is spot on for more although a very slight downwards tilt if anything.

If you find all saddles generally uncomfortable I'd look at better quality bibs with higher spec chamois too - makes a huge difference.

pinno

Max P wrote:

pinarello001 wrote:

No one has mentioned top tube length. If it's too long for you, no amount of stem length and saddle position...

Yes, they have.

Max P wrote:

Plenty of online guides to get saddle height correct depending on formulas or start with straight leg when heel on pedal and work from there. Fore/aft position determined by the old plumb line from just below knee cap to spindle - this is not the way to adjust reach; top tube and stem are for this. Saddle level is spot on for more although a very slight downwards tilt if anything.

If you find all saddles generally uncomfortable I'd look at better quality bibs with higher spec chamois too - makes a huge difference.

No one likes a smart Alec :P

If I jump on a thread and post my bit in isolation, then I can spout any boll0x I like.

kajjal

rowlers wrote:

Thanks to all replies. I think it really is that I had the bars a little too low for long term comfort. Generally it was fine, but it was causing pressure issues. This is why I don't get the pressure on my winter bike as it set up for more comfort and most saddles seem to work on.
Playing around on the turbo the Rido and SQlabs saddles seem to do a go job.

Bike setup is also down to personal preference as well as your size and physical limitations. I have about an inch of drop to the bars as it suits my riding style. Others on here have four inches or more of drop which suits them. There is no correct answer , as long as you can cycle without injury, get good power delivery and the bike handles well for you then that is all you need.

If your bars are too low moving spacers and flipping the stem upright can help and won't cost you a penny

(I am now putting on my flameproof suit before the stem police arrive :P )

kayakerchris

One quick test of your setup and balance is to move from hoods to tops and then drops with both hands simultaneously.

Start on the hoods and then lift both hands off and move to the bars whilst continuing to pedal. keep pedalling and then lift both hands and move them to the drops.

If you find this difficult or scary or you have to stop pedalling to stabilise yourself then the bike is not properly set up.

There are too many things that could be wrong to comment so go find a fitter.

Adrian Timmis at Cadence sport is without doubt one of the nicest and most professional people you will find anywhere. He also gives a 1 hour + tutorial on bike riding at the same time for free!

Millidog

I fear I might be stating the obvious but :- You seem to have tried an awful lot of different saddles, how long have you persevered with each one ? In my opinion all new saddles need some bedding in and by this I don't always mean the saddle sometimes you backside just needs time to adjust ! You have tried some pretty good seats there so in my experience you should find one of these does the trick. Specialized saddles always work for me as long as you measure your sit bone width. I also find Prologo work well, be sure to go for carbon rail versions !

rowlers

Well, I've just returned the rido rlt after a couple of weeks test riding. Once you have the angle dialed they are superb, zero perineum pressure and very comfortable, if a little different. I've ordered 2!

BillyImp

Hi all, thought I would follow on from this thread instead of starting a new topic.
I've been having saddle issues for a while now and I've been experiencing a lot of pressure on the perineum. Following on from a bike fit the situation has eased somewhat but to remain on my sit bones it's giving my abs a real workout, and after approx an hour of riding I find myself rolling forward and slouching back onto my perineum.

Is this simply a case of getting used to the new position, persisting with it and trying to strengthen my core?

pinno

You have a few issues BillyImp:

Saddle angle.
Trying to get too flat?
Stem length to long?
Stack height too low.
Seat to high in relation to h'bars?

Perhaps combine investigating this and investing in a saddle with a cut out.

An hour isn't long on a bike and you should be comfortable for that length of time easily.

JayKosta

BillyImp wrote:

...
after approx an hour of riding I find myself rolling forward and slouching back onto my perineum.
...

---

If you are 'rolling forward' because the seat angle 'urges' you to do so - then the seat angle is not ideal. The tilt of the seat should give a 'neutral' position that feels (but might not look) level and balanced. Adjust the seat angle based on comfort and function - not by measurement or appearance.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

debeli

rowlers wrote:

I'm fed up with saddles and think I must be a freak.
Every saddle I've tried (Romin/Toupe/SLR/Arione/Aliante/Spoon/SQlabs 611/Rido currently on trial and prob others), I always get the feeling that I'm falling forward into the bars (pelvis seems to roll forward onto perineum).
I'm flexible and I don't feel stretched out.
I have my saddle height so I'm comfortable, I could probably go higher/or lower slightly if needed.
I have have approx 4'' drop from saddle to bars.
I have tried to rule out reach by trying an inline seatpost and saddle full forward (and back), didn't seem to make much difference..
I get a little bit of pressure in my hands, as I feel like I need push myself back into the saddle all the time, but no pain as such.
Any wisdom?

No need for a 'Bikefit' at this stage. Your issue is by no means unique and the solution can be simple. Even if what I describe is not in itself the solution, it will head you in the right direction.

1. Saddle height: I set this by sitting on the saddle, putting my heel on the pedal and having the saddle high enough to allow me (just) to lock and unlock my knee joint comfortably.

2. Saddle fore-aft: Make a plumbline (mine is a socket on a string). With the cranks horizontal, a plumbline dangled from under the patella on your 'front' leg should dissect the pedal at the fulcrum. Move the saddle for or aft to achieve this.

3. Handlebar height: This is a matter of preference (as are all things) but a good starting place is to look for about a right angle between torso and arms when you're on the hoods. Find a height that you like and that likes you.

4. Stem length: I was taught many years ago that the handlebar should obscure the front hub when you're on the hoods. I've yet to find a better gauge than that.

Once the above are met (more or less) keep moving stuff around a tiny bit at a time (and never more than one thing at once) until you find the right 'feel'. There are so many variables and we are all so different that there is no hard-and-fast rule.

Once you have the feel you like, set the angle of the saddle in a way that feels right on a long ride. Don't worry if everyone else prefers it at another angle. It's your bike and your backside.

I hope this helps. The above setting-up takes only twenty minutes (less on a turbo) and sets a nice baseline.

BillyImp

pinarello001 wrote:

You have a few issues BillyImp:

Saddle angle.
Trying to get too flat?
Stem length to long?
Stack height too low.
Seat to high in relation to h'bars?

Perhaps combine investigating this and investing in a saddle with a cut out.

An hour isn't long on a bike and you should be comfortable for that length of time easily.

These are things to look into but most were addressed in the bike fit. Just to clarify, I can spend 5/6 hours or more on the bike but experience a little perineum discomfort during and after the ride. To position myself so I'm on my sit bones instead of soft tissue puts strain on my abs and core after about an hour or so, I'm wondering if the position still needs altering or whether it's a case of strengthening my core.

BillyImp

JayKosta wrote:

BillyImp wrote:

...
after approx an hour of riding I find myself rolling forward and slouching back onto my perineum.
...

---

If you are 'rolling forward' because the seat angle 'urges' you to do so - then the seat angle is not ideal. The tilt of the seat should give a 'neutral' position that feels (but might not look) level and balanced. Adjust the seat angle based on comfort and function - not by measurement or appearance.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Thanks for the reply, currently my saddle is at -3 degrees which I'm told is as 'extreme' as it should be, previously I had it at -7 degrees which forced me to sit on my sit bones and relieved the soft tissue but caused me to slide forward and I had to keep shuffling back

janesy

tight hip flexors.

DeVlaeminck

JayKosta wrote:

BillyImp wrote:

...
after approx an hour of riding I find myself rolling forward and slouching back onto my perineum.
...

---

If you are 'rolling forward' because the seat angle 'urges' you to do so - then the seat angle is not ideal. The tilt of the seat should give a 'neutral' position that feels (but might not look) level and balanced. Adjust the seat angle based on comfort and function - not by measurement or appearance.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

I agree with this. Too much drop to the bars may be uncomfortable but it shouldn't make you feel like you are sliding forwards and have to push yourself back. Also second the line about a saddle looking level not necessarily meaning it is level - most saddles are not pan flat so feel can be a better guide than how it looks.

JayKosta

BillyImp wrote:

...
currently my saddle is at -3 degrees which I'm told is as 'extreme' as it should be ...

---

Try adjusting to what 'works for you' and don't be restricted by what someone else has said.
Also, Having a 4 inch drop from the saddle to the bars might be more than is necessary.
Especially if using the drop section of the bars is troublesome. If you can raise the bars or flip the stem, that might be worth a try.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

pinno

Don't listen to what anyone says except what I say... :roll: