Knocked off, Broken Thumb. what to do next?
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Same thing happened to me yesterday but I was lucky not to get hit. Once I calmed down I realised it could be argued that I was partly responsible for being in that position but the driver was responsible for not signalling that he was turning left. In my case it was not a left only filter lane so as I understand it he should have signalled as he could have been going straight ahead from that lane. If I had needed to I would have claimed and expected to be paid in full because it was not a filter lane. Where the driver was positioned he could legally have gone in one of two directions and so the onus was on him to indicate if going left and not indicate if going straight ahead. As he wasn't indicating it would have been wrong of another road user to behave as if he was turning left and so I would have expected to win any dispute over contributory negligence on my part.
Now that's only thinking about how a damages claim might have gone - in future I will never do it again and will add this to my ever growing list of key situations where I need to remember to always assume the driver will do the most un expected and stupid manouvour possible ! As to adding time to a commute I would have thought that would be minimal. Not sure how you could estimate 2 hours added as you could still filter down if the traffic was stationary* as this situation could only arise immediately before or at the turn-off when the traffic was moving.
* As long as no fuckwitt opens the passenger door without checking of course!0 -
bernithebiker wrote:SmoggySteve wrote:cougie wrote:I'd think that any settlement may be negotiated down - they both share the blame - but the driver is the person who wasn't looking where he was going at the end of the day - it doesn't give him carte blanche to do stupid moves.
Stupid moves? Like trying to filter on the left hand side behind a vehicle thats moving slowly on the approach to a junction? You mean that kind of stupid?
It's a stupid move if he doesn't look behind, check it's clear, then indicate.
What if an HGV had been steaming up the inside?
if a HGV could squeeze down the inside then i'd suggest the car was in the wrong lane or the HGV was driving on the pavement.www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes0 -
Another good reason not to pass on the left. Saying that I got collected by a door being opened of a car in the right hand lane of what is basically a stretch of urban dual carriageway. Unfortunately people do completely stupid and unpredictable things on a regular basis.wishitwasallflat wrote:* As long as no fuckwitt opens the passenger door without checking of course!0 -
bernithebiker wrote:You only have to ride in London for 5 minutes to see that cyclists filter down the left and right hand side of traffic all the time.
Cars can turn left or right or simply pull over to the left.
To my mind, if they do that then they are obliged to Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre.
They are driving over a tonne of steel, surely they should be obliged to be careful how they do so?
Surely the point is that if there is a traffic lane, bus lane or cycle lane on the inside then a driver is likely to expect something to be moving there but if you are a metre from the kerb (and often less) then in many cases a driver does not expect there to be anything moving past them. I tend to be very cautious filtering on the right of traffic as well as people equally don't expect anything to be passing them when they are in a queue of traffic.
My own way of dealing with filtering is I'll go down the right when it is not moving and I can clearly see far enough ahead that I'm confident I can safely pass before they will get to move at a faster speed than I'm travelling. The only time I'll even consider going down the left is if, at a set of lights, I've seen the lights change to red and know that the timings offer me a chance to get fully past. Even then I'll only do it if there's enough width that I can take avoiding action if any vehicle moves inwards whilst I'm passing. Basically, it's knowing the roads you ride on well enough and if in doubt stay back. It's horrible getting caught between two lanes of traffic when the lights change and the vehicles accelerate meaning you can't get back into your lane.0 -
The OP is in the wrong for both undertaking and doing so close to a jct and the driver is in the wrong for not indicating - best to shake hands and go their own way.0
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Sorry folks, but start with: do not filter down the inside next to a side road on the left and do not filter down the outside if there is one on the right. If you have to do it because of a queue, do it real slow. Motorcyclists learn this, some the hard way.
Once you start defending a risky activity in terms of time saved - you are doomed. Doomed I say
You always have to be thinking - what if? In the earlier case I linked Clenshaw -v- Tanner 2002, I think the claimant had a better claim given the vehicle turning turned in to a petrol station (less obvious than a side road), he was on a marked cycle lane and the traffic was in a long queue. Yet he only got 50%, and was told on appeal that this was generous 0 -
Sorry not sure what you mean - I'm confident I can safely pass before they will get to move at a faster speed than I'm travelling - do mean that you would need to feel sure that you could cut back in to the left hand side of the lane (crossing in front of a vehicle) before the traffic was going too fast for that to be safe?Pross wrote:My own way of dealing with filtering is I'll go down the right when it is not moving and I can clearly see far enough ahead that I'm confident I can safely pass before they will get to move at a faster speed than I'm travelling.
Sorry - to get fully past - do you mean get right to the front of the queue before it moves?Pross wrote:The only time I'll even consider going down the left is if, at a set of lights, I've seen the lights change to red and know that the timings offer me a chance to get fully past.
Not arguing Pross trying to get a feel for what's smart as I routinely filter down the left on my commute when there is a queue of stationary traffic and now am thinking I shouldn't. I know DIY it wouldn't stand up as part of a claim but if I waited in the queue (like I was in a car) that would add loads (not 2 hours though
) to my time. 0 -
wishitwasallflat wrote:
Sorry not sure what you mean - I'm confident I can safely pass before they will get to move at a faster speed than I'm travelling - do mean that you would need to feel sure that you could cut back in to the left hand side of the lane (crossing in front of a vehicle) before the traffic was going too fast for that to be safe?Pross wrote:My own way of dealing with filtering is I'll go down the right when it is not moving and I can clearly see far enough ahead that I'm confident I can safely pass before they will get to move at a faster speed than I'm travelling.
Sorry - to get fully past - do you mean get right to the front of the queue before it moves?Pross wrote:The only time I'll even consider going down the left is if, at a set of lights, I've seen the lights change to red and know that the timings offer me a chance to get fully past.
Not arguing Pross trying to get a feel for what's smart as I routinely filter down the left on my commute when there is a queue of stationary traffic and now am thinking I shouldn't. I know DIY it wouldn't stand up as part of a claim but if I waited in the queue (like I was in a car) that would add loads (not 2 hours though ) to my time.
Yep, basically make sure before you start that you can safely get back in before you need to and if in doubt don't do it. Hard to explain in writing exactly what I mean but basically you need a gap to get back into and the time to safely get to that space. Also, as DIY says avoid doing it or be extra cautious on either side at a junction as you don't only have to worry about the vehicle you are passing but also the 'kind driver' who calls someone into or out of a side road just as you are passing!0 -
My thoughts - It's fairly safe to filter on the left, and I do most days at one time or another if the conditions below are met-
- There is no left turn available
- The traffic is moving at a low speed so doors are not likely to suddenly open (and cars are unlikely to move across and cut you off, because they are going slowly)
- Or traffic is stationary, but you have sufficient room to ride out of the door zone.
You should always try to filter on the right:
-The driver is on that side, so has a better view of you in their mirror and in their peripheral vision.
-Because they need to cross the other lane to turn right, they're more likely to actually pay attention to their surroundings and signal before turning across you (but don't count on it - keep aware and do not overtake at junctions! Sit in behind until the drivers intentions are clear).
- It can be a bit scary with traffic coming the other way, but generally drivers are looking forward (when they aren't playing with the radio, texting, reading the paper etc....) so there is a pretty good chance they'll see you. Be prepared to escape though - if there isn't room to filter, wait. It isn't worth the risk.
I can't recall who posted the advice, but there's a three point check before making any overtake (car or bike) - is it Legal? Is it Necessary? Is it Safe? - keep that in mind, particularly the necessary one - there's no point filtering in front of cars at traffic lights that will just overtake you as soon as they get across the junction.0 -
Basically, having cycled 12 years through central London, some of that as a courier, with many, many near misses, but only one crash (m/bike, not my fault, see above), you have to assume that EVERY driver is going to pull out on you, turn into you, etc.
However, I still think the onus is on car drivers to look and signal if they are going to radically change the position of their 1 tonne + weapon. It's in the Highway Code after all…….0 -
+1 on that. Assume that they are all out to get you and ride accordingly.
That said - when they do try to get you - they should still carry the responsibillity. The OP might be a new cyclist and not have learned his lessons yet. (I think he has now !)0 -
Thanks Pross that's clear and makes good sense.0
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He can't shake hands. He has a broken thumb.Surrey Commuter wrote:The OP is in the wrong for both undertaking and doing so close to a jct and the driver is in the wrong for not indicating - best to shake hands and go their own way.0 -
TimothyW wrote:... It's fairly safe to filter on the left, if the conditions below are met -
- There is no left turn available
Your rules seems very wise but does this clause mean you would never filter on left if traffic was stopped waiting for lights at a T or cross junction where there was a left turn option for them at all? Would you do it if they were so far away from the left curb (bike lane presumably) that you could avoid the door opening surprise? Does that mean (assuming no bike lane) that at such junctions you would filter down the right and just plan to get back across to the left as soon as traffic started moving?
Sorry for the questions but trying to learn from others experience. I have routinely filtered down the left but with the OPs story and my experience yesterday I need a new strategy before leaving tomorrow am at 6.00 :shock: :!:
OP - What do you reckon was the driver who hit you in a left only filter lane? Did you consider/would you consider going down the right next time that situation arises?0 -
I've been cycling the route for years and passing the junction the incident happened for a long old time. Its a wide single carrigeway road up a slight incline. I have never stopped behind stationary traffic before where i judge there is ample room to safely pass.I think the issue was the traffic was stopped, then the lights changed and traffic started moving. Seeing no indications I stupidly assumed noone was turning and cracked on.
Ultimately, another cycling lesson learned and at least I am mostly ok.
Still not been to check the bike. I am in plaster after the doc manipulated my thumb into a stupid thumbs up pose.Cube Cross 2016
Willier GTR 20140 -
And I would consider filtering on the right but only if I knew the road and if I could get to a safe place if traffic srarted flowing again.Cube Cross 2016
Willier GTR 20140 -
wishitwasallflat wrote:TimothyW wrote:... It's fairly safe to filter on the left, if the conditions below are met -
- There is no left turn available
Your rules seems very wise but does this clause mean you would never filter on left if traffic was stopped waiting for lights at a T or cross junction where there was a left turn option for them at all? Would you do it if they were so far away from the left curb (bike lane presumably) that you could avoid the door opening surprise? Does that mean (assuming no bike lane) that at such junctions you would filter down the right and just plan to get back across to the left as soon as traffic started moving?
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't being sarcastic/trolling. :roll:
Where I say a left turn is available, I literally mean, I would not be between a car and the left turn (so where the OP found himself when he got hit). If there is a queue of traffic it's fine to move up it approaching the junction, but extreme caution must be applied as this is where it is easiest to get doored (passenger decides to hop out while the car is stopped at the lights....)
The most common reason that there is adequate space to filter on the left in my commute is because there are cars parked irregularly along the side of the road - this forces the traffic right, but between parked cars there are big gaps you can use to filter while being out of the door zone.
But yes, generally speaking I will just filter up the right, as on my route the right lane is usually clear, or there is sufficient space that I can fit up the middle.0 -
Everyone who says left filtering is commonplace and therefore acceptable are doing so under the assumption that the vehicle in front has seen you. With assumption being the mother of all fuckups it is pretty much something that although is done should not be considered safe. You do not have right of way over the vehicle in front and if you collide you should not expect any sympathy or rights to claim.0
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SmoggySteve wrote:Everyone who says left filtering is commonplace and therefore acceptable are doing so under the assumption that the vehicle in front has seen you. With assumption being the mother of all fuckups it is pretty much something that although is done should not be considered safe. You do not have right of way over the vehicle in front and if you collide you should not expect any sympathy or rights to claim.
Possibly, but in my experience you are in just as much danger filtering on the right, and it is just as likely that the car in front will turn into you, whether you're on the right or left.
(Having said that I do prefer to filter on the right).0 -
TimothyW wrote:I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't being sarcastic/trolling. :roll:
Where I say a left turn is available, I literally mean, I would not be between a car and the left turn (so where the OP found himself when he got hit). If there is a queue of traffic it's fine to move up it approaching the junction, but extreme caution must be applied as this is where it is easiest to get doored (passenger decides to hop out while the car is stopped at the lights....)
The most common reason that there is adequate space to filter on the left in my commute is because there are cars parked irregularly along the side of the road - this forces the traffic right, but between parked cars there are big gaps you can use to filter while being out of the door zone.
But yes, generally speaking I will just filter up the right, as on my route the right lane is usually clear, or there is sufficient space that I can fit up the middle.
Thank you your assumption is 100% correct, I've always used this forum primarily to learn and am grateful for your and others advice. Never understood trolling and never done it.0 -
The OP took a risk like he has done loads of time previously. In this particular case his risk assessment was wrong and the risk came home to roost.
It is possible, likely even, that if he has been taking that risk for a long time he has become complacent and complacency has no place on the road iof you are on a bike.
We all make split second judgements and sometimes we get it wrong. Hopefully we learn from the mistakes. Hopefully we get it wrong many times less than we get it right. If you have frequent and regular spills then it's time to reassess your attitude to your own personal safety.0 -
There is no right or wrong side to filter on you should pick the side that maximises your distance from the hazards you can see. When I used to teach advanced motorcyclists the whole game was about developing an adaptive plan based on what you see and what you could expect to happen. This risks go up massively once you start passing traffic that is moving or likely to move. You should watch your speed differential too. The faster your speed in relation to theirs the greater your risk. Used to cover this a lot with advanced motorcycle courses. Personally once traffic is doing more than about 10mph I think its time to drop back in. For motorcycles we used to go with 20mph and never pass more than 20mph faster (20:20 rule). Only a rule of thumb though.0
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www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes0
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VmanF3 wrote:
Speaking as one who spends a lot of time with his foot in his mouth must sympathise with DIY and say entirely unintentional but hilarous non the less - OP hope the pain killers are good enough to enable you to see how funny this is 0 -
Navrig2 wrote:It is possible, likely even, that if he has been taking that risk for a long time he has become complacent and complacency has no place on the road iof you are on a bike.
Don't know about OP or anyone else but you have described me perfectly there :oops: .
I read this thread and the next day nearly got totalled in the same way as the OP got hit - learnt a lot of valuable lessons from this and have changed my ways so thanks to all who have contributed.0 -
Chris Bass wrote:
Ha Ha, Brilliant! This forum provides plenty of entertainment for me and the remark was great.
Just taken my bike to the LBS (very strange walking it there) and hopefully it wont be terminal when they come back to me after a once over. it looks ok at first glance to me.
Me i'm in plaster and will find out in a week if i need surgery. hopefully not and i might be able to get out on my bike before xmas and maybe on the turbo in a week or two.
Pun away folks :-)Cube Cross 2016
Willier GTR 20140 -
and a classic example here of expect the unexpected when filtering even when you think you have a whole lane to yourself...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEiAMKdrFq0
you can just make out theres a car that carries out the same manoeuvre moments before the van thinks yeah thats a good idea, though I think theres little chance youd have seen that in real time on the bike. but once youve seen it you suddenly spot the danger in that circumstance.
personally I dont like filtering on the right because I always think you risk getting hung out to dry if the traffic starts moving again, because the drivers see you as having queue jumped, they are more reluctant to let you ease back in even if you are travelling at similar speeds.
so I filter on the left, but absolutely with caution and if I think its not obvious how the vehicles might react, Ill just take prime and treat myself as a.n.other vehicle.0 -
Do you know who the witnesses are blaming or what they saw..?
It's easy to say the driver didn't see you, and just as easy for him to say you didn't see his indication i'd guess.0 -
Where in Notts was this junction? I commute regularly in Nottingham and I'm intrigued now.0
