Insurance question-someone crashes racing

crowe1

Hi

Going to start road racing next year at a local series in Cornwall. What happens if someone crashes and breaks your frame/wheels etc? Can you take out insurance to ease the pain?

Cheers

Chris

diy

You can insure you bike and yourself for that matter. You can also sue them (or get cover to do so) for the damages they cause.

You probably want to be thinking about protecting yourself from claims, covering loss of earning from injuries and then if you have money left cover your bike.

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership/race/gold

Tom Dean

Has anyone ever sued anyone for crashing in a bike race in the uk?

You can of course insure for whatever you want. crashes happen but expensive breakages are pretty rare IMO. If you need to insure bike parts you are probably spending too much on them in the first place.

imposter2.0

Furthermore, if you are worried about crashing, then racing probably isn't for you...

whoof

If you are riding a race then the event has insurance. However this is 3rd party insurance to cover if someone in the race damages property outside of the race. It cannot be used to claim against another rider or the organisers if a participant damages their bike during a race.
BC gold member insurance would cover you for personal accident but not damage to your bike during a race. I'm pretty sure it also says you cannot claim against another BC member's insurance if you are training with them and your bike is damaged if they cause you to crash.

Personally I never knew anyone who insured against damage to thier bike whilst racing.

diy

It doesn't really matter what is written in any membership rules or contracts. Liability for negligence cannot be waived. There is nothing to stop a claim, there have been plenty in other sports where one person causes injury to another and a claim for damages occurs (far too many to list). Also with cycle races there isn't anything exempting a person from the rules of the road, only permitting the race to be lawful if properly authorised. lastly you have to consider that the vast majority of insured claims are settled outside of court, so you'll never see details of those claims. Your are more likely to see uninsured claims published. e.g. football

jibberjim

diy wrote:

There is nothing to stop a claim, there have been plenty in other sports where one person causes injury to another and a claim for damages occurs (far too many to list). Also with cycle races there isn't anything exempting a person from the rules of the road,

However if you're cycle racing and crash, then you are very unlikely to not be contributing to your own crash, so much that someone would have to be proven to be so negligent that you'd actually get a successful claim for any worthwhile damages. For example you're very unlikely to be riding a safe distance... So the contributory negligence would likely be high for most accidents

Tom Dean

I think we can take that as a no...

rothbags

Refer back to the old school golden rule of amateur racing

"Race on what you can afford to replace"

whoof

If you want to sue someone you don't need any insurance for that. I knew of someone who sought to make a legal claim against another rider after a crash on a chain-gang. They withdrew it after no one would ride with them.

racingcondor

Most bike insurance includes a waiver for events so from what I've seen you would need to be very careful when you pick your policy as if you haven't been you're probably not insured for bike damage in sportives let alone racing.

BC 3rd party insurance is essentially to cover the cost to you should you do something so stupid that you leave someone else with life altering injuries and the fault is laid clearly on you (i.e. very unlikely as crashes are usually caused by a string of things. Rider 1 stands on a climb, Rider 2 brakes to avoid wheel overlap, Rider 3 swerves to avoid 2, Rider 4 makes contact, Riders 5-7 crash).

That said, in 5 + years of racing I've seen a couple of broken wheels, a saddle or two and perhaps one frame. Bikes usually escape undamaged (as do riders).

diy

BC Silver & Gold claim to cover you for racing.
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership/race/silver

Personally I will only insure what I can't afford to lose. A couple of grand for a bike will be annoying, but my home and assets something else. There are some truly stupid people in some of the lower racing categories. Its the same on motorcycle track days - its always the beginners groups that have the knobs in. You quite frequently used to see smashed up bikes getting pushed to the nearest road for the insurance claim, though I doubt it would work tbh.

whoof

diy wrote:

BC Silver & Gold claim to cover you for racing.
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership/race/silver
tbh.

But only for third party liability for a claim made against you by someone outside of the race.

racingcondor

Looks like it's changed a bit (good on BC for developing the product).

Included liability insurance is the same as always (3rd party, 10M cover) which makes sense. The BC Bike insurance (optional extra) does seem to suggest that it can cover competition. I'd be interested to see the small print and price on that though. Bike specific insurance is often ridiculously expensive, it would be interesting to know what you're quoted for a £4k bike with cover for 'high risk' activities like racing in Europe.

olake92

I'm afraid I won't be able to provide any references* (because I can't be bothered :P), but I know you would be unlikely to successfully sue someone for a normal racing crash; there's a general rule in court regarding sporting activities that participants (and spectators) accept a certain amount of 'normal' risk. If the damage was caused by said 'normal' risk, you wouldn't succeed in your claim. Obviously, the normal risk associated with cycle racing is crashing. Damage caused by anything outside of what is normally associated with your sport could be actionable. For instance, a particularly malicious dump tackle in rugby is outside the rules of the game and therefore not a risk that someone readily accepts.

In other words, unless the crash is deliberate or so absurd that it isn't a risk you would normally accept when participating in a race, you probably wouldn't be able to claim.

(*I have just remembered the brief facts of the case but will put it here: spectators injured at a motor sport event tried to claim against either the organisers or the competitor for injuries/damage caused by a crash. The judgment went against them as it was held that they accepted the risk of a crash by standing on a corner where a crash was particularly likely... Something like that.)

As for insurance, have some sort. Whether it is provided by a third party or your own ability to cover the costs doesn't matter (you could be a billionaire for all I know!).

diy

or otherwise known as volenti non fit injuria - to the consenting there is no injury. Can't see a spectator assumes that risk. Still without insurance you could go bankrupt trying to find out.

olake92

diy wrote:

or otherwise known as volenti non fit injuria - to the consenting there is no injury. Can't see a spectator assumes that risk. Still without insurance you could go bankrupt trying to find out.

That's the one, thanks (it was on my previous law module and since the exam I have forgotten almost everything! ). I think the important fact for the spectators in the case I mentioned was their choice to stand at a corner where a crash was not only highly likely, but also what they wanted to see. However, if they had been on a long straight behind big fences and in the stands, the judgment would likely have been different.

diy

I think you may be refering to Wooldridge v Sumner [1963] in that case it was a horse race and the injured party a photographer. Obviously we have a good modern example being the tour selfie idiots.

However, if you manage to find your study notes you'll recall that there is a quite a burden on establishing consent. Mere knowledge of risk is not enough. Add that to the fact that cycle races don't always occur on closed roads and you could find the injured party is nothing to do with the race. Merely waiting to cross for example.

jibberjim

diy wrote:

or otherwise known as volenti non fit injuria - to the consenting there is no injury. Can't see a spectator assumes that risk. Still without insurance you could go bankrupt trying to find out.

The race would of course have insurance, and you as part of it (it's what your licence gets you). There was the case where a guy in a road race on the wrong side of the road hit another cyclist out for a ride even that the judge only gave 2/3 vs 1/3 blame against the racer. I can't imagine someone in the race getting much at all.

diy

Is it actually possible to hold a race license without insurance?

maryka

diy wrote:

Is it actually possible to hold a race license without insurance?

No, and this is why you need a day license if you only have bronze membership or if you forget your license and can't prove that you're a BC member with silver/gold. The day license provides the insurance for that event. As an organiser I would refuse to allow anyone to enter a race unless they either showed me their license (confirmation email on a phone, etc.) or bought a day license as I don't want to be the person responsible for allowing a possible uninsured rider to race.

olake92

diy wrote:

I think you may be refering to Wooldridge v Sumner [1963] in that case it was a horse race and the injured party a photographer. Obviously we have a good modern example being the tour selfie idiots.

However, if you manage to find your study notes you'll recall that there is a quite a burden on establishing consent. Mere knowledge of risk is not enough. Add that to the fact that cycle races don't always occur on closed roads and you could find the injured party is nothing to do with the race. Merely waiting to cross for example.

You are correct; Woolridge is the case relating to spectators and I was mixing up all the facts in my head. You'd never believe it but volenti non fit injuria didn't come up in the exam! I still believe that you'd struggle to claim against a competitor but spectators/bystanders could potentially claim against riders (depending on the facts).

racingcondor

How about riders claiming against spectators. I suspect in my example (coming up) the answer is yes you could but it would be interesting to hear from the couple of you who seem to have some real life knowledge of how these things work.

Example - Hillingdon often has locals using the circuit to go for a walk. On occasion that includes taking the dog for a walk and not on a leash. Would I be right in thinking that since it's a sports field rather than a public park the onus would be on the member of the public to control their dog and therefore they could expect to be sued for causing a pile up (getting their details off them would be another matter but in theory...).

whoof

diy wrote:

Is it actually possible to hold a race license without insurance?

If you are taking part in a BC race the event has insurance. The organiser pays BC a fee the for insurance.
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/roadev ... sersupport

Doesn't answer your question but makes it moot in terms of 3rd party for racing.

diy

racingcondor wrote:

How about riders claiming against spectators. I suspect in my example (coming up) the answer is yes you could but it would be interesting to hear from the couple of you who seem to have some real life knowledge of how these things work.

Example - Hillingdon often has locals using the circuit to go for a walk. On occasion that includes taking the dog for a walk and not on a leash. Would I be right in thinking that since it's a sports field rather than a public park the onus would be on the member of the public to control their dog and therefore they could expect to be sued for causing a pile up (getting their details off them would be another matter but in theory...).

hmmm... You actually made that really difficult to answer with the example you gave. but if we assume it was a road, then yes if the rider had no possible avoiding action available and suffered injuries as a result of an out of control dog. The fact that its a cycle race is irrelevant. Dog owners are liable both in criminal and civil courts for the actions of their dog.

In general if you could avoid the accident then your claim goes out of the window, partially or fully.

racingcondor

I used the Hillingdon example becuase 1) it's happened, 2) I thought I'd be making it easier (not a public road so in theory, as a sports ground walkers should have an expectation that there might be sports happening. Makes liability pretty clear I'd imagine)!

I'll keep it in mind if it ever happens when I'm there but lets hope that in general it remains a very rare problem.

diy

The issue is once you get away from vehicles, roads and general duty of care, you are in the world of "accidents happen". Not all accidents where one person's actions against another result in liability for the damages or injuries. You have to establish negligence and that requires there to be a duty of care. In general we don't have a duty of care to each other.

An example a person helps you load your flat screen TV in to the back of your car. He unfortunately drops it smashing it to smithereens. He has no obligation to pay you for the damage he caused since he owed you no duty of care.

Tom Dean

diy wrote:

Is it actually possible to hold a race license without insurance?

You don't seem to know much about this subject. Why leap in with advice?

mpatts

I was absolutely convinced my race gold insurance covered my bike, but I can't find a reference to it!

DavidJB

mpatts wrote:

I was absolutely convinced my race gold insurance covered my bike, but I can't find a reference to it!

It doesn't.

crowe1

Cheers for all of the replies. Been a while since I have been in here.

I can ride in a group and frequently do. I have a Moda Stretto and I would be pissed if some fellow cat4 rider stoofed into the back of me on my first race and snapped my carbon frame. However unlikely that is. I have taken out insurance so hopefully that will come into play should the worse happen. Basically there is no chance my wife would let me have another bike if I smashed this one up. Insurance covers racing. Or so they say...