Sub 7 Hour Sportive Advice Please...

The Kellyboy

I completed the 2014 Wales Sportive (same bike course as Ironman Wales) in 7 hrs 20 (7hrs 10 moving time) and I'd like to break 7 hours next year.

My split at 72 miles was 4 hrs 5 mins (pretty good, I think) but that means the last 40 miles took over 3 hours (not so good!)

I understand the I need to do more longer rides so I can keep my speed up later in the ride and delay the fatigue - but I'm a dad of 3 with a wife who works shifts & that kind of time is pretty rare!

I've attached a graph of my 10 mile splits for the course, too.

I'll be doing the Tour Of Pembrokeshire and the Velothon (and maybe the Carten100) prior to the Wales Sportive which I'll be treating as training rides.

What I was thinking was:
* Lots of hard spin bike sessions this winter, such as tabata or 1 minute fast and 15 seconds off for 30 - 60 mins.
* Very intense spin bike sessions (HIIT or even a tabata) prior to shortish rides of 30 - 50 miles to simulate the fatigue without needing the extra time.

I'm also going to shave my legs and wear tighter clothing to help with 'going aero', but I think the main issue is fitness for the last 40 miles.

All advice greatly appreciated!

imposter2.0

Train for the distances you ride at. If the last 40 miles took over three hours, then something clearly went very wrong - either with your endurance, your pacing, or your fuelling, or all three. I'd look into that first - and then I'd have a long hard look at the training you did prior to that ride, as well. Smashing yourself on a spin bike is not going to help much, and is probably not the answer.

I assume you were joking about the leg shaving, so we can disregard that bit...

The Kellyboy

If you look at the graph, split 1 is the same 10 mile section as split 8. Splits 6 and 7 are the hilly sections and are basically the same as 10 and 11 (give or take a bit). I lost more time on the flatter split (section 1 compared to 8) than on the hillier parts put together, so maybe it's my TT that's not up to it (I ride a road bike, not a TT bike).

meanredspider

It could just be that you went out too fast, as imposter says, and not pacing yourself properly. A friend uses the saying that a minute at the start is worth 3 minutes at the end. Your ride looks like a perfect example of that. At mass-participation sportives like Etape Caledonia, I find that a number of people are passing me at the beginning but I find I'm passing literally hundreds in the last 15 miles. I'm ruthless in my pacing. In Alpe D'HuZes, I was the last of my team to complete the first climb but the only one to complete the Six. If you use an HRM, choose something around 70% HRmax and stick to it.

But, also as imposter says, it could be your endurance (you need long slow rides in your training not hammering yourself) or your fuelling.

ai_1

You probably went out too fast but it's very hard to tell much from split times. For example was there much variation in wind throughout the day? Were you riding solo the whole time or were there times you were working in a group and would expect to have better splits?

bahzob

I'm quite used to riding long distances quite fast solo and in groups. Solo has included 240miles on a road bike at 20mph+ average, 100 on TT bike 25mph+. Group/solo has included 100mile plus hilly events like the Dragon at 20mph.

My advice would be:
- If the event involves riding in groups then the key thing is to find good groups and stick with them. Aim to keep a position mid way up the group so you don't get dropped when it slows down then accelerates.
- That said take climbs at your own pace. Don't go into the red zone to stay with a group, just let it go and take it easy until the next one goes by.
- If you are riding solo then aero is the most important thing. Clothes make a bit of difference, shaving your legs next to none. The biggest changes to make you go faster is aero bars>aero front wheel. A skinsuit also makes a big difference but really isn't very practical for a sportive.

- The short intervals you are suggesting won't do any harm but should not be the mainstay of your training. The fatigue they provoke is quite different from that you experience on long rides.
- The best training zone would be longer sessions of 12-20 minutes as hard as you can go with a short rest 3/5 minutes then repeat 2-4 times. This will give you a feel for where your "threshold" is. Once you get that do long 60minute+ non-stop sessions at a level just below this zone. Finally do long rides of 2 hours plus at a pace that forces you to breathe, comfortably, through your mouth. Use distance for all these as a measure, as you get fitter you should be able to go quicker for the same effort.
- Find some sort of low fat/high carbohydrate food that you can eat comfortably at a rate of 60g an hour forever. Take this on your long rides so that it becomes habit to feed often in small portions along with water at a rate of a bottle or so an hour.
- Pace for long events should be even at around target. That said it is almost inevitable that you will slow towards the end so, for an even event or one with laps, breaking it down into thirds and aiming for first 1/3@105%, second 1/3@100% and final third@95% is probably better. Whatever just be sure you don't hit the redline. For long events this means avoiding spending more than a few minutes at the most in your "threshold" level, never ever doing efforts at the sort of intensity you do 5minute or less intervals in.

diy

^Brilliant advice. The only thing I'd add: pay attention to the gradient when planning your reserve. If you've got all the climbs at the end then you'll need to adapt your first 2 thirds to compensate. There is one I do every year where the last 3rd has the same climb as both the first 2 together.

cougie

Was the second part a lot more hilly ?

I'd get out and ride lots - I think you might have faded - so you need to be used to riding 100 milers - and get used to feeding on the way too. So set a timer on your watch or computer and every 20 mins or so have a bite to eat.

Intervals will help but you need stamina. I can cope with spin classes alone and I'm great for 50 miles or so. And then my legs fall off as I've not the endurance.

The Kellyboy

Thanks for all the input!
I realise I need to do more hours to increase my base endurance, but with family life it's hard to squeeze those extra rides in!
I was just sounding out advice about doing a harder blast prior to a 3ish hour ride to simulate the fatigue without spending double that time in the saddle.
I did fade in the last few miles, but I didn't push myself in the first 72 either (except on the 'King Of The Hill' challenge where I came 33rd - chuffed to bits with that).
My usual commute to work takes around 50 minutes, and I think I'll add another 15 miles or so to that now and again next spring onwards just to increase hours on the bike.
Thanks again for all the advice - I really appreciate it!

madasahattersley

I know a GIRL that did that route in 5:30, right after she'd just swum for an hour, and then she went and ran a marathon in 3:15! Best of luck mate

napoleond

madasahattersley wrote:

I know a GIRL that did that route in 5:30, right after she'd just swum for an hour, and then she went and ran a marathon in 3:15! Best of luck mate

Yeah but I bet if you'd thrown a ball to her she wouldn't have caught it.

meanredspider

The Kellyboy wrote:

I was just sounding out advice about doing a harder blast prior to a 3ish hour ride to simulate the fatigue without spending double that time in the saddle.

That would be a mistake. You need to do a bit of reading to understand what you are looking to do. Just do the long ride at a very steady pace (zone 2 etc). This builds your base endurance by promoting fat burning adaptation. Mix that with days where you do the intensive stuff in short hard stints. The trick is not to do both in the same ride. When doing the slow ride, keep your HR down at all times - it can be quite hard to do.

chrisw12

Easy answer, loose weight. At 15+St in its first year I went 7:30 (might have been slower). This year at 13st I went 6:15. Next year at 11st I'll be sub 6, it's that simple.

To the other posters, this course has lots of short sharp hills, very little opportunity to draft as there's not that many riders on the course and the frequency of the hills breaks things up. Also there's no opportunity to gain time on the downhills as you're normally on the brakes. Also also the second half will be slower than the first half because of the corse design, so it's difficult to read too much into the pacing.

chrisw12

madasahattersley wrote:

I know a GIRL that did that route in 5:30, right after she'd just swum for an hour, and then she went and ran a marathon in 3:15! Best of luck mate

Sad I know, but I had to go and check on that one. It might have been better if you said that you knew the female course record holder.

There's not many people going under 5:30 on that course during ironman, great respect to all of them, it really is a different level

ai_1

chrisw12 wrote:

Easy answer, loose weight. At 15+St in its first year I went 7:30 (might have been slower). This year at 13st I went 6:15. Next year at 11st I'll be sub 6, it's that simple....

It's really NOT that simple.
Weight's a significant factor but it's far from the only one that matters.

meanredspider

chrisw12 wrote:

Easy answer, loose weight.

Yup that pesky loose weight. Strap it down with some tie wraps.

bahzob

"chrisw12 wrote:

To the other posters, this course has lots of short sharp hills, very little opportunity to draft as there's not that many riders on the course and the frequency of the hills breaks things up. Also there's no opportunity to gain time on the downhills as you're normally on the brakes. Also also the second half will be slower than the first half because of the corse design, so it's difficult to read too much into the pacing.

If this is the case it's even more important to have a sense of where your threshold is and ride within it.

If are going for an overall time the best way to handle this sort of hill is to change down early so that you maintain as steady a cadence as possible up to the top. Effectively you are using your gears to flatten the course as much as possible.

If you grunt your way up then it will lead to disaster, the first few may be OK but the cumulative effect is what gets you. That's why road races are harder than sportives, as often you have to attack hills just to stay with the group.

All the above being said one racing tactic that is worth using on this sort of course is, if you are in a group, try to reach the bottom of the hill first, while avoiding going all out. Change down into your climbing gear at the bottom and ride in your climbing zone to the top. Most of the group will no doubt overtake you but you should still be with it.

I don't know the course but if you really have to brake on the descent then this should make catching up easier not harder. In most sportives riders brake too much too soon. Often this is a combination of a lack of descending practice/confidence and looking at the bike ahead of them rather than the road.

Some focussed practice on descending should make you better than 90% of sportive riders and allow ride both more safely and quicker. The link below contains some excellent advice on the topic

http://www.flammerouge.je/factsheets/doidescend.htm

meanredspider

bahzob wrote:

http://www.flammerouge.je/factsheets/doidescend.htm

That is a good article though he seemed to lose the thread a bit on what line to take. To be quick, you do need to hit the apex and a late apex is the safest if not necessarily the quickest route. On a typical corner, a late apex will get you round at a lower speed but allows you to pedal earlier and gives you more margin for error on the exit - a Good Thing if the exit consists of a 30cm wall and a 30m drop.

By FAR the best thing you can learn to do is get your head up and look "through" the corner - it's amazing the difference this makes: you will relax, be faster, smoother and more controlled and your body will instinctively react to keep you on that path.