Trail grades

rockmonkeysc

As has been discussed on another thread there are huge inconsistencies in UK trail grades.
In your opinion, what should define grades blue - double black?

Here's my thoughts:

Blue: A surface which requires a mountain bike. A mix of rock, dirt and compact gravel. All features should be rollable with the option of jumping built in to aid rider progression. Not too physically strenuous. Hilarious for all levels of ability.
Red: A less groomed surface with bigger rocks and slabs. Optional features which cannot be rolled. Features which reward commitment and skill.
Reasonably strenuous.
Black: As red but no option to roll larger features. Gap jumps, drops with good landings, rock gardens which require speed and commitment. Very steep gradients. Painful consequences for mistakes.
Double Black: Just plain nasty. Steep, rocky, big gaps and drops sections requiring speed and commitment. Testing for even the most skilled rider. Clean underpants needed after each run. Similar to Llangollen 2014 BDS track but without the rollable lines.

cooldad

Often grades are determined by length as well, like W2.

The Rookie

A blue should be rideable by someone with no experience, should be rideable on an off-road bike (inc CX), should be a suitable starter ride for kids.

Angus Young

The Rookie wrote:

A blue should be rideable by someone with no experience, should be rideable on an off-road bike (inc CX), should be a suitable starter ride for kids.

Isn't that what greens are for?

mcnultycop

As long as they are consistent I'm happy.

Blue at BPW does not equal blue at Antur (well the old one, anyway). Black at Llandegla does not even equal red at Gisburn.

Antm81

I find some of the red stuff at Lee Quarry harder than some black sections. That's mostly the jumps though, I seem to have a confidence problem when it comes to leaving the ground.

rockmonkeysc

Angus Young wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

A blue should be rideable by someone with no experience, should be rideable on an off-road bike (inc CX), should be a suitable starter ride for kids.

Isn't that what greens are for?

Exactly my thoughts. Blues should be trails to learn and progress on.

supersonic

So hard to define. Sometimes you might get one obstacle on an otherwise fireroad, so that becomes black with all the disclaimers. A lot of it is litigation. I'd like to see a better grading system - and you always need to look at the description.

FishFish

Yes - the black run in Thetford - I think it included the 'beast of england' - was not very black at all and the red runs are easy. I don't think that 'the beast' exists any more. Anyone know?

paul.skibum

The Muni trails in Whistler have just undergone some work to make them considerably easier after years of abuse has eroded and beaten them up - I was riding them the other day thinking "where have all the rocks and roots gone" as I steered my way through packed dirt and stone.

I ran into the crew doing the work which included one of the local reknown trail builders and he was showing me where the original line had been on the section he was working and I could see his point that a once pleasantly challenging trail for a developing rider was now tough to clean on a climb/descent for a decently competent rider.

We (Whistler) suffers from a lack of proper blue trails so the Muni was doing its bit to put some once blue trails back into proper service - it niggled me briefly but there are plenty of tough trails beyond the Lost Lake area.

I'd say they now had a good grade of blue trails from pale blue to dark blue within that area - still a bit of a step to the black trails but there is a bit of progression now.

I don't personally think length of trail should reflect on the grade - tougher prolonged climbs maybe but not the actual physical length, 20k of gently undulating packed path doesnt become blue compared to 10k of the same trail, you just have to read the map to work out if you can do the distance.

jimothy78

I think Rockmonkey's gradings broadly make sense (except for the bit about avoidable obstacles/features - if they're part of the main trail, they should be considered in the grading, even if there's a chicken line around them - this would mean that once you're familiar with the type of features likely to be found on a red or black run you'd have the confidence to hit them, without having to worry if the one you're approaching is going to turn out to be the exception, rather than the rule).

However, the biggest problem is that, as mentioned by others above, the current system takes distance into account - this causes all sorts of inconsistencies-

In my mind it makes no sense at all that Whites and The Wall are both red, but if you combine them then they become a black - should just be regarded as a more strenuous red.

Penhydd and Blue Scar are another example- Penhydd is graded red because of it's length, but Blue Scar has bigger rock steps (one of which is more-or-less blind, and on a corner) - more likely to cause problems for a newbie.

Personally, I'd like to see trails given two separate gradings - one for the technicality and one for how physically demanding it is (ie, based on distance, climbing and, to a lesser extend, surface).

taff..

I was reading this last night

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/insightzone/physical_preparation/planning_for_performance/article/izn20130802-Mountain-bike-trail-centre-grades-0

I think it sums up pretty well what you should expect at a centre. one thing that it doesn't mention is that a Blue trail should control your speed, so where there is a down hill bit there should be a rise to take your speed away to make it novice friendly, whereas a red will make you use your brakes more to control your own speed and so on.

cooldad

Trail centres are fun now and again, but given the choice I prefer more natural stuff.

And just deal with whatever comes up. (Which often entails walking things because I am a coward)

rockmonkeysc

cooldad wrote:

Trail centres are fun now and again, but given the choice I prefer more natural stuff.

I'm with you on that but all weather trails serve a purpose and occasionally flowing jumps and berms can be fun.

njee20

FishFish wrote:

Yes - the black run in Thetford - I think it included the 'beast of england' - was not very black at all and the red runs are easy. I don't think that 'the beast' exists any more. Anyone know?

This was the example that leapt to mind for me. Trouble is that Thetford black is harder than the red, which in turn is harder than the blue.

For someone who rocks up at Thetford with their family for a ride, being told they're all green isn't helpful. They don't really care that the blue at Brechfa is harder. The grading system provides information discrete to that location.

You have to take them in isolation, and trying to apply a set of guidelines to such a narrow band is virtually impossible. You'd need a scale of 1-100 for it to be a truly levelled playing field, and even then conditions come into play. A theoretical blue is harder in the wet and mud than a dry, summer red.

Angus Young

njee20 wrote:

For someone who rocks up at Thetford with their family for a ride, being told they're all green isn't helpful. They don't really care that the blue at Brechfa is harder. The grading system provides information discrete to that location.

On the other hand, someone who thinks they know what a blue is from riding Llandegla is going to be in for a (potentially nasty) surprise if they throw themselves down a blue at BPW with wild abandon, so there is a case for consistency from site to site.

njee20 wrote:

A theoretical blue is harder in the wet and mud than a dry, summer red.

You can't argue that a wet blue might be harder than a dry red. You have to assume like for like conditions for grading and then apply some common sense with regards to variations.

rockmonkeysc

I'm thinking that maybe some trail centres might deliberately over grade trails to flatter rides in to thinking they are better than they are so they go home feeling good about the day and keep coming back.
If you want to see a real argument about grading of difficulty, take a look on the ukclimbing.com forum. People have been banned over arguments about the grade of Three Pebble Slab on Stanage Edge (solid HVS 5a in my opinion). UK climbing grades have one grade for the hardest technical move and another for the overall severity. Quite a good system I think.

The Rookie

Angus Young wrote:

njee20 wrote:

You can't argue that a wet blue might be harder than a dry red. You have to assume like for like conditions for grading and then apply some common sense with regards to variations.

But then add in that some places work the wrong way round, Cannock is faster when there is enough moisture (up to really quite wet) to hold the top layer together than it is in the dry when the dusty surface makes it quite slippery - not helped by the very first section from the main visitor centre (at Swinnerton's) being more slippery than the rest anyway and hurting your confidence before you start!

Angus Young

The Rookie wrote:

Angus Young wrote:

njee20 wrote:

You can't argue that a wet blue might be harder than a dry red. You have to assume like for like conditions for grading and then apply some common sense with regards to variations.

But then add in that some places work the wrong way round, Cannock is faster when there is enough moisture (up to really quite wet) to hold the top layer together than it is in the dry when the dusty surface makes it quite slippery - not helped by the very first section from the main visitor centre (at Swinnerton's) being more slippery than the rest anyway and hurting your confidence before you start!

This weekend BPW was very wet and yet it didn't really ride too much different from the last time I was there when it was dry and dusty. I came away from the day looking as if I'd been bog snorkelling.

rockmonkeysc

My regular DH spot has more grip in the wet, tyres cut through to the rock rather than trying to grip the loose surface. In the dry it's scary fast with unpredictable grip.
Tidworth freeride park is almost unrideable in the wet. Wet chalk is like ice.

Angus Young

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Wet chalk is like ice.

Plus, it turns into a fine grinding paste. I rode the Ridgeway when it was wet on my old rigid bike, I'd think twice about taking my Kona up there over winter. Afterwards I was reminded of the damage that might have been done every time I did up my laces and they squeaked. Despite a couple of washes they squeaked for about a month.

njee20

RockmonkeySC wrote:

UK climbing grades have one grade for the hardest technical move and another for the overall severity. Quite a good system I think.

Whilst I agree that some sort of 'two tiered' approach is good, how do you classify those? You almost need a "UK Grading" and a "Centre Grading", so Thetford Black is a green/blue on a UK level, but remains a black locally.

Then you've got things like W2 which are black (IMO laughably) because they're long, so do you factor in length as part of the grading? Some people find boardwalk harder, so should a trail be 'upgraded' because it includes boardwalk sections, likewise SS's example of an obstacle on a fireroad.

It's a complete minefield. Although I imagine that a real minefield would be a black, and probably few would argue.

Antm81

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Tidworth freeride park is almost unrideable in the wet. Wet chalk is like ice.

The whole of Salisbury plain is like that and if it's not slippery, the chalky mud clogs everything.

cooldad

Just have two grades - "Rollable" (for me, no gap jumps or vertical drops) and "Rad to the power of gnar" for RMSC types.
Simple.

rockmonkeysc

njee20 wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

UK climbing grades have one grade for the hardest technical move and another for the overall severity. Quite a good system I think.

Whilst I agree that some sort of 'two tiered' approach is good, how do you classify those? You almost need a "UK Grading" and a "Centre Grading", so Thetford Black is a green/blue on a UK level, but remains a black locally.

Then you've got things like W2 which are black (IMO laughably) because they're long, so do you factor in length as part of the grading? Some people find boardwalk harder, so should a trail be 'upgraded' because it includes boardwalk sections, likewise SS's example of an obstacle on a fireroad.

It's a complete minefield. Although I imagine that a real minefield would be a black, and probably few would argue.

I don't see the need for local grades. A black trail should be of similar difficulty everywhere otherwise it leads to accidents caused by people thinking that because they rode one very easy black trail they can ride any black trail. Someone going from the black at Llandegla to the black at Gawton could get very badly hurt.
What I meant was a grade for the overall severity of the whole trail and a technical grade for the most difficult section.
I quite like what Bike Park Wales have done at the start of their black trails. One has a drop that can't be avoided within sight of the start and the other has a gap jump within sight of the start. Both are full width of the trail and it's fenced so you can't walk around them. It seems to put a lot of people off wobbling down at walking pace and getting in the way of people who can ride the trail properly, ruining their descent. I have gone off the gap jump in to the woods which is blind and very fast to find a group of goons stood on the landing, it could have been very nasty.

njee20

RockmonkeySC wrote:

I don't see the need for local grades.

No, but you're a hyper gnar riding god. If they were all green, how would a family decide which trail to ride at Thetford? Or Swinley?

The Rookie

Simple, they rate it as green and then put either a simple description so you can tell which greens are more green than others or simply put a ranking number. So green1 is easier than green2 etc....

rockmonkeysc

njee20 wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

I don't see the need for local grades.

No, but you're a hyper gnar riding god. If they were all green, how would a family decide which trail to ride at Thetford? Or Swinley?

What I'm trying to say is a green should be similar difficulty everywhere, a blue should be the same everywhere etc. That would mean when you go somewhere you haven't ridden before you can go for your usual grade and not get any nasty surprises. As it is, I know of blue trials which are vastly different in technical difficulty at different locations. Going from Ashton Court blue to Bike Park Wales or Glentress blue and you might find yourself struggling. Go from Cannock black to Gawton black and you might find yourself strapped to a spinal board.

cooldad

Surely you can see what's ahead before you kill yourself?

njee20

RockmonkeySC wrote:

njee20 wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

I don't see the need for local grades.

No, but you're a hyper gnar riding god. If they were all green, how would a family decide which trail to ride at Thetford? Or Swinley?

What I'm trying to say is a green should be similar difficulty everywhere, a blue should be the same everywhere etc. That would mean when you go somewhere you haven't ridden before you can go for your usual grade and not get any nasty surprises. As it is, I know of blue trials which are vastly different in technical difficulty at different locations. Going from Ashton Court blue to Bike Park Wales or Glentress blue and you might find yourself struggling. Go from Cannock black to Gawton black and you might find yourself strapped to a spinal board.

I know exactly what you're saying, I'm just pointing out the reasons that won't work. How many people have died/been seriously hurt at Gawton specifically because they assumed it was the same as Cannock/a n other trail centre? That is what you're saying will happen after all. The situation you're posing is the current one.

That brings us back to where we are now, with more local ratings.

Or you need a lot more than 4-5 ratings.

Angus Young

RockmonkeySC wrote:

What I'm trying to say is a green should be similar difficulty everywhere, a blue should be the same everywhere etc.

^ This. And It's rather odd that it's not.

njee20 wrote:

Or you need a lot more than 4-5 ratings.

^ This.