Garmin 1000 any good?

mosa

Got one heading to my local halfords today including cadence & HRM etc. any reviews? Any thoughts? Can they post code search of required?

Mr Dog

Just got the 810 bundle from Handtec for £280. Are the extra features worth a big pile of cash? Can't fault Handtec.

mosa

£386 is best I can find the bundle with the bits & bobs

meanredspider

Take a look at the Garmin site and their 1000 forum to see what issues it still has. Mine was one of the first and it was so riddled with problems I sent it back. I might buy it again in a year or two because I liked the screen and some of the features but almost nothing worked properly when I had it so it had to go.

StevePurcell

I sent my 1000 back after 2 weeks and went with the 810. It was like night and day.

Bar Shaker

My 1000 has been faultless for the 6 weeks I have owned it.

The screen alone is worth it over the 810.

meanredspider

Bar Shaker wrote:

My 1000 has been faultless for the 6 weeks I have owned it.

The screen alone is worth it over the 810.

That's good that they've fixed stuff because literally nothing worked in mine. Have you tried all the features (PM, live tracking, segments, phone interface, weather, map updates, route finder, proper navigation etc)? What's the maximum battery life you've had? With or without BT connection to phone? Screen light on or off? Have they added the features that they promised out the outset that weren't ready for launch (like landscape format etc)?

StillGoing

There was nothing wrong with the device; it was the firmware that caused the problems and Garmin sorted it all out.

Garmin aren't the only big name company that release firmware updates without thoroughly testing them, opting to use the public as the test mule. Apple, Tacx and Microsoft are notorious for it too. Does it cause a problem? Only if they drag their feet rectifying the issues. Garmin with the last problem were also sorting out the direct link to Strava with both companies no doubt keen to ensure their own individual security wasn't at risk from each other or anyone else.

A good number of dissatisfied Garmin users simply didn't operate the device correctly, but it's easier to blame the merchandise.

meanredspider

philthy3 wrote:

There was nothing wrong with the device; it was the firmware that caused the problems and Garmin sorted it all out.

Garmin aren't the only big name company that release firmware updates without thoroughly testing them, opting to use the public as the test mule. Apple, Tacx and Microsoft are notorious for it too. Does it cause a problem? Only if they drag their feet rectifying the issues. Garmin with the last problem were also sorting out the direct link to Strava with both companies no doubt keen to ensure their own individual security wasn't at risk from each other or anyone else.

A good number of dissatisfied Garmin users simply didn't operate the device correctly, but it's easier to blame the merchandise.

Odd point of view. The firmware is part of the device - a vital part of the device as it happens. You can't say the device is fine apart from the firmware. It's a bit like saying that a car is fine except for the engine :roll:

Saying lots of companies do it, isn't some defence either. That's a bit like saying being ripped of by Lloyds Bank is OK because RBS, Barclays and HSBC are doing it. And, yes, it does cause a problem. I bought the 1000 to use for a specific charity event. In the end I used it only for its live tracking feature because there were so many problems (and, even then, the battery died after only 8 hours even with the screen turned off). I used my trusty 800 for everything else (power, HR, recording etc) - Garmin have nearly ironed out the bugs on that....

And blaming users for not operating it properly is risible. You're obviously not a proponent of human factors engineering or UX or any of that stuff. It should be completely obvious how to operate it properly. Speaking for myself, I'm as certain as I can be that I operated it properly. I've spent the last 10 years involved in the design of medical devices of a very similar size and complexity of a Garmin Edge device. I can only say that I'm glad Garmin don't make medical devices.

northpole

A good number of dissatisfied Garmin users simply didn't operate the device correctly, but it's easier to blame the merchandise.

philthy3

Your comments (perhaps incorrectly) read as those of someone who, having spent their hard earned money on it, feels obliged to defend it. I don't follow your logic at all and, having been the victim of the 705 and 800 at or around launch I'm definitely in the camp of 'won't be fooled again'. Hence, whilst I like the appearance of the new 1000, I shall be waiting for the Garmin guinea pigs to do their thing.

Peter

Bar Shaker

I have used most of the functions and it BT connects to my iPhone 6 and home wifi perfectly.

Since the last software update, battery use is around 7% an hour when using navigation but viewing the data screen between auto junction displays. The last big test was the New Forest 100. A leisurely 7h30 ride used 52% of the battery.

The only weakness now is the inability to import routes to Garmin Connect.

Best features: Segments and Di2 info display

StillGoing

meanredspider wrote:

Odd point of view. The firmware is part of the device - a vital part of the device as it happens. You can't say the device is fine apart from the firmware. It's a bit like saying that a car is fine except for the engine :roll:

Saying lots of companies do it, isn't some defence either. That's a bit like saying being ripped of by Lloyds Bank is OK because RBS, Barclays and HSBC are doing it. And, yes, it does cause a problem. I bought the 1000 to use for a specific charity event. In the end I used it only for its live tracking feature because there were so many problems (and, even then, the battery died after only 8 hours even with the screen turned off). I used my trusty 800 for everything else (power, HR, recording etc) - Garmin have nearly ironed out the bugs on that....

And blaming users for not operating it properly is risible. You're obviously not a proponent of human factors engineering or UX or any of that stuff. It should be completely obvious how to operate it properly. Speaking for myself, I'm as certain as I can be that I operated it properly. I've spent the last 10 years involved in the design of medical devices of a very similar size and complexity of a Garmin Edge device. I can only say that I'm glad Garmin don't make medical devices.

Of course the firmware isn't part of the device. It's merely the software that operates it and the other Edge devices, and is updated regularly. It's merely the operating system rather than the mechanicals of the device. I'm also not excusing Garmin using the end user as the development guinea pig and merely pointing out that they are not the only company to do it. Apple are one of the worst companies for it as are Microsoft.

There are umpteen posts on the various forums out there from users moaning about their particular device only to have another experienced poster come along and point out that they have not followed a particular process correctly. It's a mini computer and may not be the easiest thing to fathom out for some, but that doesn't deny the fact that there are user instructions out there on the internet. Because someone didn't follow the instructions or process, doesn't make the device faulty.

northpole wrote:

philthy3

Your comments (perhaps incorrectly) read as those of someone who, having spent their hard earned money on it, feels obliged to defend it. I don't follow your logic at all and, having been the victim of the 705 and 800 at or around launch I'm definitely in the camp of 'won't be fooled again'. Hence, whilst I like the appearance of the new 1000, I shall be waiting for the Garmin guinea pigs to do their thing.

Peter

I've owned the 705 and currently the 810 (second 810) and yes I agree that using the end user as the test bed isn't ideal. But what do you do? I'm sure the many people who refuse to buy a product from Apple, Microsoft and Garmin until certain it works, don't even make a small dent in unit sales. My 705 worked flawlessly and was only sold as I wanted the additional functions of the 810. The first 810 I returned as "faulty" only to realise with the second one that yes, I hadn't followed a process correctly. I've had glitches with LiveTrack and phone connectivity due to the delay with the last firmware update, but a lot of the delay with resolving the issue I put down to the negotiations between Garmin and Strava in protecting each other's rights.

Me personally, I don't see a need for the 1000, but I can appreciate that a lot of users do. No doubt, if I wasn't an 810 owner and still looking to upgrade, I would go for the 1000. Even well knowing I was going to be a test guinea pig.

meanredspider

philthy3 wrote:

Of course the firmware isn't part of the device. It's merely the software that operates it and the other Edge devices, and is updated regularly. It's merely the operating system rather than the mechanicals of the device. I'm also not excusing Garmin using the end user as the development guinea pig and merely pointing out that they are not the only company to do it. Apple are one of the worst companies for it as are Microsoft.

There are umpteen posts on the various forums out there from users moaning about their particular device only to have another experienced poster come along and point out that they have not followed a particular process correctly. It's a mini computer and may not be the easiest thing to fathom out for some, but that doesn't deny the fact that there are user instructions out there on the internet. Because someone didn't follow the instructions or process, doesn't make the device faulty.

Of course the firmware is part of the device! Without it, the device makes a poor paperweight. The fact that it can be updated relatively easily just means that manufacturers don't give it the focus it needs. That's again why in the medical device world it has massive focus. Ah, we'll throw the product out there and fix it later. Total crap.

The two examples you give are poor too. Both Apple devices and Microsoft are infinitely more complex and have to interface with a wide range of other software and firmware/hardware. What's also interesting is that Apple devices don't often have issues with users doing things "wrong". There's absolutely no excuse for it. You shouldn't need instructions if it's designed properly. I use a lot of different hire cars - nearly every single one I can jump into, start drive off, operate the sat nav and pair my phone. That's because they're designed properly. Imagine if you went onto Amazon and needed instructions to place an order. Any electronic product that you need to refer to the instructions has failed. Blaming the user is ridiculous!

northpole

The earlier references to Apple made me giggle a bit - the number of times I have groaned in despair 'if only Apple made an alternative to the Garmin' is not inconsiderable. That is fed by my experience of products that rarely go wrong and have been designed to be intuitive for users at all levels. In this instance I think reference to Apple is a poor shot when defending Garmin's Edge products.

Peter

StillGoing

meanredspider wrote:

Of course the firmware is part of the device! Without it, the device makes a poor paperweight. The fact that it can be updated relatively easily just means that manufacturers don't give it the focus it needs. That's again why in the medical device world it has massive focus. Ah, we'll throw the product out there and fix it later. Total crap.

The two examples you give are poor too. Both Apple devices and Microsoft are infinitely more complex and have to interface with a wide range of other software and firmware/hardware. What's also interesting is that Apple devices don't often have issues with users doing things "wrong". There's absolutely no excuse for it. You shouldn't need instructions if it's designed properly. I use a lot of different hire cars - nearly every single one I can jump into, start drive off, operate the sat nav and pair my phone. That's because they're designed properly. Imagine if you went onto Amazon and needed instructions to place an order. Any electronic product that you need to refer to the instructions has failed. Blaming the user is ridiculous![/quote]

So it's crap because you can't operate it without having to use the instructions. Well there you go then; case proved. :roll:

Again you are overstating the comparison with other manufacturers when the only comparison is that they too opt to use the buying public as the test bed. Garmin aren't unique in that respect.

northpole wrote:

The earlier references to Apple made me giggle a bit - the number of times I have groaned in despair 'if only Apple made an alternative to the Garmin' is not inconsiderable. That is fed by my experience of products that rarely go wrong and have been designed to be intuitive for users at all levels. In this instance I think reference to Apple is a poor shot when defending Garmin's Edge products.

Peter

Yep, clearly Apple never do anything wrong.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2836812/ ... -wifi.html

meanredspider

philthy3 wrote:

So it's crap because you can't operate it without having to use the instructions. Well there you go then; case proved. :roll:

Again you are overstating the comparison with other manufacturers when the only comparison is that they too opt to use the buying public as the test bed. Garmin aren't unique in that respect.

Nope - it was mostly crap because it simply didn't work because neither the firmware nor the software was finished or tested properly when it was launched. Any issues that remain because users don't operate the device as intended are still Garmin's issue. 10 years as a quality director for consumer-operated electronics tells me that's the case. Most smart phones are infinitely more complex than the Garmin and don't need instructions. That's because they've been designed properly. It really isn't hard.

Comparing Garmin with Apple and Microsoft is like comparing a Barrett house with an airport terminal. But, yes, they all do it to some extent just Garmin are benchmark when it comes to scale.

Bar Shaker

Garmin can do big stuff too. Their aviation 'glass cockpit' stuff is exceptional... And priced accordingly.

Cycling GPS units started as an adaption of low end hiking tools. The connectivity of the new units puts them somewhere between hiking and nautical units now.

If friends have had problems with 800/810/1000 units, it has been user error.

meanredspider

Bar Shaker wrote:

Garmin can do big stuff too. Their aviation 'glass cockpit' stuff is exceptional... And priced accordingly.

Cycling GPS units started as an adaption of low end hiking tools. The connectivity of the new units puts them somewhere between hiking and nautical units now.

If friends have had problems with 800/810/1000 units, it has been user error.

Yup - I know Garmin do big stuff. The point with Apple and Microsoft is that their software needs to interface with a huge number of variable software and hardware solutions (why I used the terminal analogy). It's incredibly difficult to test all scenarios before launch hence I'm not surprised there are a few bugs. The 1000 is a pretty contained ecosystem. It needs to talk to a few Ant+ devices and a very few BT devices. There's no 3rd party software loaded onto the device. It shouldn't be hard to get it right.

User error is an interesting concept. I'd like to talk specifics: some examples would be good. If you start with the mindset that you have to get it right, it should be incredibly difficult for users to get it wrong. Take the example of a subway ticketing machine - the process is pretty complex: you might need to start by choosing language, destination, type of ticket, means of payment, receipt, ticket delivery, use, expiry etc etc And yet millions of people in hundreds of cities around the world manage to work them effectively first time having never seen them before. That's human factors at work.

In medical devices, it's not even acceptable to use the term "user error". You can talk about "use error" but that's still the manufacturer's problem. Once you have that mindset, you realise that, with some design work, it's not that hard to do. The Garmin 1000 has the advantage of a BIG colour screen - how hard can it be to make it clear to people what they need to do?

But please give me some examples of these "user errors"

nferrar

I'm far from a Garmin fanboi (had a 705 not long after they came out and swore many times whilst they seemingly alpha-tested the firmware on the early adopters, my 500 didn't fare much better either) but I have to say the 1000 has been pretty stable (bought mine the day of release). Only major issue I had was routing going crazy mid ride but that was my fault for not disabling the auto-routing (it's been faultless since). Only other issues I have is it's still pretty flaky with my iPhone 4s connection and on my main PC I can't use it with Garmin Express for some reason that still eludes me despite being an IT consultant (looks like a firewall issue but can't see anything getting dropped or blocked), works on my laptop fine though. Oh and battery life is about what I expected, about 10% an hour (with phone and HRM connection and mostly on map screen)
If I had an 800 or an 810 would I get one? Nope. But if I had the money for one would I get one rather than save a bit and get an 810? Yep, which is what I did.

Bar Shaker

meanredspider wrote:

But please give me some examples of these "user errors"

I am happy to.

By far the most common fault is a Garmin turning itself off and deleting someone's ride.

In every case, this is because they have not pressed the record button. It doesn't delete your ride, it never recorded it and because it isn't recording, it will auto power off after a pre set time.

In every case of this, users will blame the device.

Without this one user error, almost all complaints would cease.

The 1000 flashes up a big message and leaves it there if moving and not recording. I think the message disappeared from my 800, after a few seconds.

meanredspider

Bar Shaker wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

But please give me some examples of these "user errors"

The 1000 flashes up a big message and leaves it there if moving and not recording. I think the message disappeared from my 800, after a few seconds.

A perfect example: a warning that doesn't go away until you acknowledge it. That's human factors. Easy to overcome a "user error". After all, it's a device that's designed to record rides and knows when you're riding - of course it should warn you if you're riding and not recording.

Bar Shaker

If you can't master the most basic commands, you can hardly complain that a product didn't do what you hoped it might do.

Human factors/user error, I am struggling to see a difference.

meanredspider

Bar Shaker wrote:

If you can't master the most basic commands, you can hardly complain that a product didn't do what you hoped it might do.

Human factors/user error, I am struggling to see a difference.

Human factors is essentially taking into account that users are people - they have frames of reference, perception, understanding, sets of physical capabilities (sight, touch, strength etc). What human factors does in design is allow for all of these things.

It's not about a basic command but the fact that people forget things or get distracted. You're about to set off on your bike and your mate remembers he's forgotten to lock his car (after he's faffed about getting ready). Finally he's ready to go and you set off, relieved that you're finally riding. You forget to start your Garmin. Given the device has every capability to remind you, why wouldn't you get it to do it?

In the days when I was learning computing, you had to compile your program onto a disc. If you forgot to put a disc in, and gave the compile command, the computer would simply write in the screen ***FATAL ERROR*** All the code you'd written would be lost. In your world you'd just say "Ha - the guy's an idiot" and leave it at that. In my world, the computer would write "Please insert a disc and hit return".

Why have a light that comes on to say your fuel is low? Or brake fluid? Jeez - can't you remember to do something as simple as that?! Why does your phone warn you the battery is low rather than just switch off?

Human factors is so much more subtle than that though. Done well, you don't even notice. One of my HF engineers used to work on cash machines (ATMs). I expect you use an ATM without even thinking about it - that's good human factors design. I've never needed to once look at the manual of my well-equipped German car. Again, excellent human factors engineering. There's really no excuse for poor design.

lostboysaint

The 800 gives you time to decide which box to press - either the "I'm riding, start this now" or "no thanks". I have watched many, many people riding off ignoring both boxes or pressing the wrong one.

meanredspider

lostboysaint wrote:

The 800 gives you time to decide which box to press - either the "I'm riding, start this now" or "no thanks". I have watched many, many people riding off ignoring both boxes or pressing the wrong one.

I once had an issue with that box "Do you want to navigate to the start of the course?" I'd arrived in London on a wet Friday night for the start of the MoonRider London to Cambridge ride. I'd loaded the course onto my 800 and my plan was to fire up my Garmin choose the course and get it to navigate me to the start. Simples. Except, of course, when the question came up, I hit "No" by mistake. OK, I thought, just go through the procedure again. Could I get it to ask me again? Not a chance! I even posted on here the next day to see if anybody knew but no-one did. I had to use my iPhone (in the pouring rain) to find the start.

Bar Shaker

I don't disagree that the UI could be better but it has improved with every model and the 1000 is now very simple to use and very usable.

If you struggle with it, cycling gps units probably aren't for you (I don't mean you personally MRS).

StillGoing

Bar Shaker wrote:

I don't disagree that the UI could be better but it has improved with every model and the 1000 is now very simple to use and very usable.

If you struggle with it, cycling gps units probably aren't for you (I don't mean you personally MRS).

Couldn't agree more.

meanredspider

philthy3 wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

I don't disagree that the UI could be better but it has improved with every model and the 1000 is now very simple to use and very usable.

If you struggle with it, cycling gps units probably aren't for you (I don't mean you personally MRS).

Couldn't agree more.

I wish our customers had such low expectations as you guys. It's no wonder that Garmin (and others) continue to do such a bad job. If you put up with crap, that's exactly what you get. Next time you find yourself reaching for the instructions you'll know that it's only because you accept it that you get it. Simple as that.

nibby

Like the look of the 1000 but still doesn't warrant an upgrade from my current excellent 800 at the moment. I'll be first on the list though when they bring one out that is compatible with Strava segments and allows more interaction with my mobile i.e. display text messages on screen and allow you to send from the device.

StillGoing

meanredspider wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

I don't disagree that the UI could be better but it has improved with every model and the 1000 is now very simple to use and very usable.

If you struggle with it, cycling gps units probably aren't for you (I don't mean you personally MRS).

Couldn't agree more.

I wish our customers had such low expectations as you guys. It's no wonder that Garmin (and others) continue to do such a bad job. If you put up with crap, that's exactly what you get. Next time you find yourself reaching for the instructions you'll know that it's only because you accept it that you get it. Simple as that.

Only I haven't had to reach for the instructions and find operating the device fairly instinctive. Certainly no worse than iPhone. Why I cocked up with my first 810 was because my iMac didn't like me just pulling the USB lead out rather than disconnecting. The 810 was fine, it was the iMac that then wouldn't detect the USB lead when it was reconnected.

lostboysaint

meanredspider wrote:

lostboysaint wrote:

The 800 gives you time to decide which box to press - either the "I'm riding, start this now" or "no thanks". I have watched many, many people riding off ignoring both boxes or pressing the wrong one.

I once had an issue with that box "Do you want to navigate to the start of the course?" I'd arrived in London on a wet Friday night for the start of the MoonRider London to Cambridge ride. I'd loaded the course onto my 800 and my plan was to fire up my Garmin choose the course and get it to navigate me to the start. Simples. Except, of course, when the question came up, I hit "No" by mistake. OK, I thought, just go through the procedure again. Could I get it to ask me again? Not a chance! I even posted on here the next day to see if anybody knew but no-one did. I had to use my iPhone (in the pouring rain) to find the start.

So it's Garmin's fault for your error! I get it now.