Not so extreme race wheelset?

Manc33

I got a 1400g wheelset thats 20H/24H. It was a welcome replacement for my 2100g stock wheels.

The thing is those stock wheels had 32H/32H and were bombproof, so I stuck them back on. There's nothing wrong with the "race" wheelset, they actually run a lot smoother than my cheap stock wheels, but I'm not racing! I prefer the stiffness I get from the 32 spoke wheels.

So I thought, there has to be some sort of compromise? Like a 32 spoke wheel thats still got Sapim Laser spokes?

Can it be done? Does it even make sense, I mean will it be any stronger than a 20H/24H with thick spokes?!

A 20H/24H setup has 44 spokes and a 32H/32H has 64 so it is simply the added weight of 20 Sapim Laser spokes. That would take a 1400g wheelset up to about 1500g tops.

I wouldn't be using the wheels for loaded touring, just safer commuting. When you can easily bend your front rim to touch your brakes you have to wonder just how strong are these wheels lol. They were light and cheap, what can you do.

keezx

The difference in "smoothness"is most likely not only 20 spokes, but rather lighter rims too.

cadseen

I ride conventional cheaper 32/32 spoke wheels on the winter bike, and lighter wheels for faster training on nice days. Good combination imo. Unless your a heavy rider you shouldnt have any real problem with the lighter wheels.

dj58

If you want some 32H wheels that are lighter and roll better than your stock wheels then you need some handbuilt based around Ultegra or Novatec hubs. The resident wheel builders can advise you.

Manc33

DJ58 wrote:

If you want some 32H wheels that are lighter and roll better than your stock wheels then you need some handbuilt based around Ultegra or Novatec hubs. The resident wheel builders can advise you.

I know stronger spokes are used on the rear drive side sometimes, I wondered if it could be all Sapim Laser (because my current 20H/24H ones are) but then, whether that would even make a strong enough wheel.

Also I don't know if there would be any point to any of it if you can get strong spokes in a 20H/24H configuration and it be stronger than 20H/24H with Sapim Laser. If that is the case I could just get my current wheelset re-spoked.

If there's less spokes there less chance of something that goes near the wheel snapping one, that sounds backwards I know but less spokes means bigger gaps. I want to ditch the aluminium nipples for brass as well if I can. I am sure you can have a light stiff wheelset - like under 1800g. I can't see how adding 20 spokes would add anything more than 100g to it. Whatever you do its always going to be lighter than those stock wheels.

dj58

Well from what I read on BR a good compromise can be a 24H/28H on the Archetype rim, depending on your weight. Not a fan of aluminium nipples myself and have never specified them on any of the wheels I have.

In theory you can have your wheels rebuilt, but as you say they were cheap you have to ask would that be economically viable. Might be cheaper to just by a set of hand built, after all you can never have to many wheelsets.

Manc33

These are 455g rims @ 32H
http://www.halowheels.com/products/part/RMHAAB32

Thats lighter than my current Alexrims R450's (470g each).

Maybe rims made from 7075 not 6061 would be better, but I guess something like that would be +50% of the cost, if not double.

cycleclinic

The wheels in one of my winter bike's weigh 1.75kg and are built with H plus son archetype rims, Sapim laser spokes and Campagnolo Chorus hubs. You could do the same with record hubs (witgh a shimano freehub if you like). The DT Swiss RR440 is even lighter and would drop the weight with record hubs to 1610g. Using the Ryde pulse sprint rims you could have a 1500g 32 spoke wheelsetm the rim is wide like the archetype too however the brake track is not that thick so just don't brake much on them over winter. Of course record hubs are expensive and you could use ultegra, Miche, novatec.... all of which are reliable and would save money.

A 24F/28R build with the archetype rims is very stiff even with laser spokes and decent hubs like novatec A171/F172 or Miche Primato's. Hell even 20F/24R archetype builds are very stiff.

So many ways to create light and very stiff high spoke count or very stiff low spoke count builds but all involve a wider rim. Narrow rims like the Kinlin XR-300 are not that stiff in comparison.

The most important thing though is have them built to a spoke count that suits you weight and mileage and you pick a rim that will not wear out so quickly. For most that will be the H plus son archetype or the DT Swiss RR440.

Manc33

32H Front Hub:
http://www.bikehubstore.com/product-p/ul80.htm
Weight: 80g
Cost: £31 (P+P not included)

32H Rear hub:
http://www.bikehubstore.com/SL210-p/sl210.htm
Weight: 210g
Cost: £49 (P+P not included)

32H Rims:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/stan ... -prod57511
Weight 700g (pair)
Cost: High! £166 a pair

Spokes:
Sapim Laser (64 x 285mm)
Weight: 301g
Cost: £40?

Nipples:
Brass x 64
Weight: 64g
Cost: £6?

Overall cost: £286
Overall weight: 1355g

Its quite a high cost but really light for a 32 spoke.

Also that setup would be lighter than my current 20/24H wheels but only slightly.

I wonder what those Icon Race hubs weigh but they have to be "ultra" light. The wheels have 870g of rims and 44 Sapim Laser @ say 4.7g per spoke so 207g... it means both hubs are around 308g for the pair.

In the more expensive stronger setup, the extra weight of spokes is compensated for a far lighter rim and slightly lighter (yet, 32H) hubs.

I can't spend that on a wheelset..... yet lol. Nearly £300 is crazy, but I bet those wheels would be stiff as hell and the weight speaks for itself. To me it seems the best bet as an all purpose wheel. Like CC says though the thin rim walls will mean they get replaced faster.

A 20/24H setup of the "expensive rim" setup would be around 1227g with the UL190 and 66g front. Sickening. Thats 13% lighter @ half the cost of Dura-Ace. Even a 32/32H setup is lighter than DA.

keezx

You might consider the new DT Swiss R460 rims.

Manc33

They are only £30 per rim but would add 240g to the wheelset over the Alpha 340.

So the way I see it you can have around a 1600g wheelset for £200 or a sub-1400g one for £300. All 32H.

I keep forgetting I have got a pair of Wolber Super Champion rims here and the way these prices and weights are going it could be worth just using them. They are ancient but I remember them being "stupidly light" for their cost and the day. Pretty certain they are 32H and could very well even be 36H.

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx? ... 7&AbsPos=0

350g the same as an Alpha 340.

Gonna need to have a 36/36H setup to use them but would save a bloody fortune. About £170 to be exact. Having the rims in my hands will also give some indication to spoke length.

keezx

I wouldn't even consider riding on Stans 340 if I wasn't racing. Brings you nothing.
BTW the Super Champions are tubulars....

Manc33

Keezx wrote:

I wouldn't even consider riding on Stans 340 if I wasn't racing. Brings you nothing.

What other 32H 700c rims are there at 350g around £80 or under?

Its hard to avoid consideration when options are this limited.

Keezx wrote:

BTW the Super Champions are tubulars....

They are "Modele 58" rims and are nowhere near 350g, I guess that's another Wolber rim :oops:

The ones I have are 530g each. :x

http://www.velobase.com/velobase.com/Vi ... 7112f98838

"Rims made by Wobler shortly after they bought out Super Champion in 1979"

Tubulars probably didn't exist back when those rims were made. :P

The ones I have are 36/36 anyway and I didn't want to go that far. 32/32 seems a good sweet spot with stiffness and strength being the aim. If the components are available to keep it under 1500g I reckon its the perfect wheelset.

You might ask why not opt for a 1600g-1800g setup and just have long lasting rims... because then I'll be going slower 100% of the time! :P It adds up. Also I live where in each direction there's a hill, I need light wheels. I noticed the increase in effort needed when I put my 2100g wheels back on off my Triban 3. I think I lost about 0.1-0.2 MPH off my average speed because of it. :oops:

Now to try to find brass nipples significantly under 0.97g...

"For the last three years, Sapim has used the 7075 material and have additional strength added by the heat treatment T6. Alloy nipples are now stronger than brass. Aluminum nipples are more expensive but for sure much better than brass." - http://sapim.be/choose-the-right-product

Or maybe not!

Manc33

"What other rims are available" the Kinlin XR-200. :roll:

Half the price of ZTR Alpha, same weight, 32H.

Here's a light setup (but would need building):

Sapim Alu Poly-Ax Nipples - 20g
UltraLight Front Road Hub - 32h - 80g
Sapim Laser Spokes x64 - 301g
Kinlin XR-200 Clincher Rim - 22mm - 383g (x2)
SL210 SuperLight Rear Hub - 32h - 210g

1377g @ £189 (all BikeHubStore.com, all without postage from US)

Since this is all from the US there will be customs charges and with it all costing nearly £200 I have no idea what that would be. On top of all that you then have Parcel Farce charging a £28 "clearance fee" for no reason on top of the postage from the US and customs charges. Something that appears to cost under £200 can easily end up costing over £300. Then it all needs building.

I would have a go at building it myself and I would be alright with the lacing pattern (hell you can just copy from another wheel lets face it) but its the spoke tension and that "dish" on the back wheel I get confused with.

Ask anyone how wheel builders know how tight to screw spokes in and they just say "they just know" lol.

Yeah but aren't there tools like a torque thing? One thing I do know is factory built wheels don't even compare to hand built. Everyone with a Triban 3 has front hub bearings going after 200 miles because the front axle is tightened so much. As soon as I loosened off the (what used to be cones?) about 1/8 of a turn it was like I had new bearings again. That 15mm nut on the hub. :oops: On my Alexrims wheels its a recessed allen key nut.

Disc brakes would be a benefit here because my main concern about rims is the braking surface. Then again you need a stronger wheel for discs than rim brakes and so it goes, you can't cheat the system! Its like a universal code.

ugo.santalucia

Manc33 wrote:

Ask anyone how wheel builders know how tight to screw spokes in and they just say "they just know" lol.

Yeah but aren't there tools like a torque thing? One thing I do know is factory built wheels don't even compare to hand built. Everyone with a Triban 3 has front hub bearings going after 200 miles because the front axle is tightened so much. As soon as I loosened off the (what used to be cones?) about 1/8 of a turn it was like I had new bearings again. That 16mm nut on the hub. :oops:

I tend not to comment in your threads as they often seem to trespass into the surreal.

However, we have banged the drum of spoke tension and tools to measure it quite a lot, so your "they just know" thing is bollox, as we/they never say that.
Go and read one of the 2 million threads about wheel building and you will find how you know when a spoke is screwed tight enough

Manc33

Surely after years you'd just tighten them without the tools, hence "they just know". How does a guitarist get a guitar in tune without a tuner? With extreme difficulty unless he has been playing for years.

I don't think I ever had a wheel (factory or hand built) where there wasn't an odd spoke at a tension way lower than the rest anyway so my guess is any tools being used can only take you so far.

ugo.santalucia

Manc33 wrote:

Surely after years you'd just tighten them without the tools, hence "they just know". How does a guitarist get a guitar in tune without a tuner? With extreme difficulty unless he has been playing for years.

I don't think I ever had a wheel (factory or hand built) where there wasn't an odd spoke at a tension way lower than the rest anyway so my guess is any tools being used can only take you so far.

Your "guessing" lead you to a load of nonsense, which has been the case throughout all of this thread. As I said, if you are interested to know, use the search function and do some reading, instead of knowing zero on the matter but "guessing".

Enough said

Manc33

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTb3x5VO69Y

He only uses a flat screwdriver and a spoke wrench.

rolf_f

Manc33 wrote:

Since this is all from the US there will be customs charges and with it all costing nearly £200 I have no idea what that would be. On top of all that you then have Parcel Farce charging a £28 "clearance fee" for no reason on top of the postage from the US and customs charges. Something that appears to cost under £200 can easily end up costing over £300. Then it all needs building.

Why on earth would you source this stuff from a US shop when you can get similar eg from Sdeals for the same money without the duties? Note, I haven't checked the availability of all your components because there's no point because your next post will list a completely different set of components you are thinking of (!) but I made a pair of wheels with Kinlin XR 200s (24 and 28) with Lasers and the total cost of all of that was £200. But why are you even mentioning XR-200s? They are completely not suitable for commuting whatever the drilling.

Manc33

Weight and price. The Alpha 340's are the same weight but double the price and probably also not suitable for commuting. I think I am just going to run my Triban 3 wheels into the ground and save £200. Its gonna be really hard riding around on 2100g wheels knowing they could be 1400g and probably just as strong. I'll be thinking about it up every hill.

I'm kinda wasting away myself anyway these days (intentionally lol) and have lost the difference in weight between those wheelsets twelve times over in the last 3 or 4 months.

When I started out on a 34lb FS MTB I thought "I'll just use this because I want to get fitter". Now I'm doing stuff like contemplating 23c tyres when I already have 25c on at 110 PSi as it is. :oops: Or all this with wheelsets lol. I should just ride the bike now probably.

Ugo trust me, none of this is surreal. :P I was like this when I was 4 years old.

Manc33

Got a pair of old Mavic M3CD here (36h).



Weight is about 556g for the rim. They have old Shimano 105 "HB-1050" hubs, solid stuff. Spokes are 7.7g each and the front hub ain't so light at 139g but they are bombproof. Front wheel weighs about 1003g which I guess is like a mid-range weight, reasonably light, safe for loaded touring (its purpose in the start).

Not gonna use these rims because they are just too heavy, although saying that, using Lasers with a 80g front hub would give a front wheel weight of about 800g, which is not bad for a 36h.

I have dismantled the old Wolber Super Champion Modele 58 wheel and I am going to try to rebuild it. Don't worry I have the 36h Mavic wheel as a reference point and I have no intention using the Wolber, its just to practice.

Ugo they do just guess tightening spokes I don't care what you say. :P I read about a spoke tension meter and people just said "It would take too much time to use one so I never have" and such stuff. Then someone else said "just tune them to middle C" lol. Others say "you know when you're going too far anyway".

I laughed the first time I saw my 20H front rim and how no spokes cross over anywhere, it looks like it should just flop apart, but doesn't. :oops:

keezx

With standard, well chosen but inexpensive components you can build a wheelset at around 1700-1800 gram which suits all your needs.
Lots of choises for wider rims 450-500 G, lighter isn't going to make you any faster, but these make a lower pressure possible and smoother rolling.
Practising is good man...

Manc33

Wow I laced up a 36H wheel tonight (2nd time around). 8)

Not tightened/trued it yet, pffffffffff, that will probably take ages.

Here's a question though... if a spoke calculator online says "278.5mm" spokes, do you get 278mm or 279mm spokes?

Then, does that affect the part where you make all the spokes have 3 threads showing? I guess 0.5mm is at least 2 threads.

I can't believe that wheel went from complete > in bits > complete even if all the spokes aren't tightened up yet.

keezx

Manc33 wrote:

Here's a question though... if a spoke calculator online says "278.5mm" spokes, do you get 278mm or 279mm spokes?

Depends, the normally come in even OR uneven lenghts...
When even, take the 278....
When uneven, take the 279

Manc33

Here's another question, why does Park Tool make a red (3.45mm) "4 sided spoke wrench" for Japan spokes, called a "SW-42" (or SW-42C) and yet when it comes to the green one, they only make a normal 3-sided one, (SW-1)?

If it existed it would be called a "SW-41" or "SW-41C" but nope.

They make the black one in a 4 sided and the red one, only those two. :?

Its so confusing at times but I figured out "15g" on a tool (like my Topeak Alien) means European aka 3.3mm spokes. "14g" means Japan aka 3.45mm. With 14g/15g the higher number is the shorter distance. :roll:

America siding with Japan instead of Europe? Come off it!

ugo.santalucia

darkhairedlord

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Reading these threads is like getting on a bus and sitting next to someone who's just had six cans of white lightning for breakfast....

VmanF3

darkhairedlord wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Reading these threads is like getting on a bus and sitting next to someone who's just had six cans of white lightning for breakfast....

Why isn't there a like button...

Manc33

I might just go back to my 20/24H and "trust" them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ7dtrRrSTg

cycleclinic

those 350g 32H tubular rims are a bit flexible, I have a set and they flex.

Manc33 I mean no offence but if you want to start building wheels learn the craft on a 32 spoke set and avoid light rims with weight limits and thin low spoke counts to begine with. From memory you are over 90kg and my rule of thumb Kinlin XR-200's and stans 340 rims are not ones I would ue for anyone over 85kg because they are not stiff enough. In fact I the Kinlin XR200 should be avoided but people much over 80kg as it not as stiff as the Stans rim. Wheels need to be stiff to survive and transfer power well. You learn what works buy doing and making mistakes. So top posting and buy some 32h rims, decent hubs, and sapim race or DT comps spokes and the tools needed and build something.

Manc33

No I lost a load of weight in the last 4 months and I'm around 10st 7lb now.

"And you're concerned with shaving 400g off a wheelset?

Yes.

I made a makeshift truing stand from an old MTB handlebar + 120mm road stem + my old Triban 3 fork. It seems to work alright I just need to stick something on the fork to get near the rim on each side.

I was looking at those dishing tools and thought "Its huge, its Park Tool, its gonna cost hundreds" but they are about £20-£25 for the WAG-5 portable one.

What I don't understand is when that tool is used. It doesn't appear to be able to help you to build the rear wheel with a dish and only shows you how badly you dished it afterwards when you check on the WAG-5? Well in my case how badly. :oops:

I seriously think I can do this now after building that one front wheel. Build... I never said true, I'm waiting on the proper spoke keys instead of this Trek Alien thing I keep trying to use (although you can go quite fast with it after a while).

I also noticed on my 20/24H rims the drive side spokes... well some of them are really high pitched, its hard to bend the spoke and its scary with them being Sapim Laser! However, the rim couldn't be more true. :roll: I don't know who built them but they were perfectly true when I got them and still are. You get what you pay for I guess. Well you get lightness and a "relatively low" cost and thus a relative amount of flex.

I have never even seen a Dura-Ace setup but I always imagine them to be as stiff as MTB wheels.

Looking at the Ultegra hubs in a 32H... but the weight put me off.

I was trying to find a digital caliper... folks, just get one from AliExpress honestly. There's a stainless steel digital solar one on there for about £20 posted. What that would cost here I have no idea, triple that, quadruple that? Just make sure to list by the amount of orders even if it means paying £2 more for something. People say its dodgy on there but not if you order from a vendor that has sold 1,200 of them. I got a Selle SMP full carbon off there... its 132g... its carbon... it was £24. :shock: The shape might not be exactly right (then again it might be, I don't know lol) but it feels alright. Its more comfy than the "Specialized Toupe" carbon 143mm I took off. It said Toupe on it anyway. But I am changing the subject.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/17125363 ... 108&ff19=0
(Same model they sell in the far east - for £20 posted)

Maybe all the ones on AliExpress are clones. RRP:£119.36 are they being serious?