Hed ardenne plus v campagnolo shamal

llen

It's my 40th birthday soon and my wife has agreed to spoil me with a new set of wheels. My long time dream has been the shamals (I love the g3 rear spoke pattern I admit) but the trend of wider rims and a claimed improved ride quality of the hed really does appeal. Does anyone have any advice or experience of the wheels that you can impart? Should I consider other options?

My weight is circa 85kg and the wheels will be my 'best' wheels. Current set up is a wilier mortirolo with fulcrum 5 wheel set.

Thanks
Llen

ugo.santalucia

I have the HED plus as rims, they are wonderful if you like a supple ride and great cornering. If you run them tubeless even better.
The G3 pattern is just a gimmick, it doesn't actually do anything useful

Now... the Ardennes as wheels are extremely expensive and I think you can get the same rims built on lush hubs like PMP, Royce or Dura Ace for that special birthday treat... likely to come cheaper too

cycleclinic

If you have the coin HED rims or DA hubs or Royce (they are doing 11 speed shimano now as well although) or there own wheels if you don't want to find a wheel builder. The HED wheels will come in a lower spoke count though they cunningly limit the rims after market to 24H, 28H and 32H but 24f/28r would be perfect for you anyway.

llen

Ugo - thanks for your reply and I totally get the g3 is gimmicky (but they do look mint). That said common sense and functional requirements are taking over my thoughts and hence why I was thinking about the ride quality of hed. I was not even aware you could buy them as rims only. What sort of cost would I be looking at if I was to go down that route. I have a campagnolo veloce 10 speed groupset if that is relevant?

napoleond

Campag are doing wider rims next year.

cycleclinic

Fulrum 2015 range is 23mm wide but the HED rims are even wider. HED rims are £130 each though. Still cheaper than an HED wheelset with top end hubs. ARe the hubs HED use top end, probably not, but they work welll enough as hubs.

rolf_f

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The G3 pattern is just a gimmick, it doesn't actually do anything useful

This isn't actually true. If you have G3 on the front wheel and use a bike box for storage, the irregular spoke pattern means you can easily reach through the wheel to thread your lock cable without rubbing your sleeves against dirty tyres. Of course, that might not be why G3 was invented........

cycleclinic

On a front wheel it just looks bizarre.

FatTed

I have the HED ardennes Rims with Chris King Hubs (11speed) 24/28 with C-Xray spokes and brass nipples. I bought the combination because I wanted too and Hope did not make 11 speed at the time. They are better than the Shamal because I had the two way fit and could not get my Vittoria CXs to seat properly and the wider rim and thus reduced pressure are more comfy, I use 25 Pro4s. Ugo maybe able to comment, my hubs and rims are expensive but my LBS has the tools, perhaps the Pacenti SL23 Rim should be considered. The spoke pattern may look cool but when a spoke is damaged its a walk home, and you cant see the spokes when riding the bike, so buy one and hang it on your wall.

ugo.santalucia

As Above... a pair of rims will set you off a fat 250 quid. Then it's up to your budget to choose the other components...
Technically the rims sold are the Belgium plus series, which has the same extrusion on an allegedly inferior alloy compared to the Ardennes plus. It is still a pretty much damn good rim. It also looks a lot better than the Ardennes, IMO. It really wants to be run tubeless... no point in spending all that money and then running inner tubes, plenty of much cheaper wide rims that take inner tubes (XR279, Archetype etc.).

PMP or Dura Ace for something special, Hope for something solid fit and forget.

Here's mine (disc version) built on the same hubs used on the Mars rover..

on-yer-bike

Get the new Shamal Mille out anytime now. G3 is probably no more of a gimmick than wide rims. However at least if you have some built you dont have to find a skip when the rims wear out.

paulmon

I have the HED laced to Hope hubs. I haven't had chance to ride them yet as they only arrived yesterday. Ultimately I plan to run mine tubeless when I wear out the Conti 4 seasons that are on there at the moment They weigh just under 300g more than a set of Dura Ace C24 fitted with GP4000s. The one thing that concerns me is tyre clearance at the back. Fitted with 23mm Conti 4S there is very little clearance between the tyre and the calliper and I suspect I may end up with debris trapped between them so I'd certainly check you have sufficient clearance before pulling the trigger on the HED's.

Here are a couple of images showing the clearance on the C24 with 23mm GP4000s compared to the HED's with 23mm Conti 4S.

Tyre clearance CAAD 10 by m00nigan, on Flickr

Tyre clearance CAAD 10 by m00nigan, on Flickr

P

ilm_zero7

on-yer-bike wrote:

Get the new Shamal Mille out anytime now. .

even the current 2014 Shamals are fantastic - not sure the Mille is all that much better TBH

janesy

Ardennes Plus on Schwalbe one tubeless here. Lovely ride. Built on American classic hubs.

bigmat

Get the HEDs, and a pair of Khamsin's with your change if you like the G3 pattern!

on-yer-bike

ILM Zero7 wrote:

on-yer-bike wrote:

Get the new Shamal Mille out anytime now. .

even the current 2014 Shamals are fantastic - not sure the Mille is all that much better TBH

Yeah but they have a black brake track. Im not sure how wide they'll be.

ugo.santalucia

PaulMon wrote:

I have the HED laced to Hope hubs. I haven't had chance to ride them yet as they only arrived yesterday. Ultimately I plan to run mine tubeless when I wear out the Conti 4 seasons that are on there at the moment They weigh just under 300g more than a set of Dura Ace C24 fitted with GP4000s. The one thing that concerns me is tyre clearance at the back. Fitted with 23mm Conti 4S there is very little clearance between the tyre and the calliper and I suspect I may end up with debris trapped between them so I'd certainly check you have sufficient clearance before pulling the trigger on the HED's.

Here are a couple of images showing the clearance on the C24 with 23mm GP4000s compared to the HED's with 23mm Conti 4S.

Tyre clearance CAAD 10 by m00nigan, on Flickr

Tyre clearance CAAD 10 by m00nigan, on Flickr

P

You'll be fine... it's a road setup, you're not supposed to pick up pebbles on a track... keep it clean and avoid build up of dirt

northpole

And don't even think about switching to 25mm tyres!

Peter

llen

Ok so I'm pretty much sold on the heds. So sorry for my ignorance do I source everything and then find a wheel builder or find a reputable wheel builder and discuss my requirements with him and get him to source everything?

Could anyone recommend a good wheel builder in the South Wales area?

Do most hubs brands have campagnolo options or are there a specific brands that I must use?

ivanoile

So in the end,how much for the wheels with Ardenne rims?

cycleclinic

Thats loads of clearance. I have one bike with the same tyres that has 0.5mm of clearance to the seat tube, it runs just fine except in the wet or it did until I switched to open corsa tyres now I have 1.5mm of clearance. That pic you show is like a chasam to me.

The best hubs for Campagnolo are well Campagnolo record, Miche, Royce. Personally if you have the budget go with 32H record hubs or Royce hubs in 24F/28R. Hope do proper campagnolo freehub now I think.

As for how much if you use royce you have over £700 in rims and hubs alone. If you are going to build yourself source the bits yourself at the best price you can but with HED and royce you will pay list or very close to that. If you are going to use a wheel builder let them source the parts unless they can't supply those parts. nothing worse than pulling out the hubs and rims a customer has sent you to find they are mismatched drillings. Had that a few times before.

llen

Thanks all for your advice.

Another plea for a reputable wheel builder in south wales / Bristol???

ugo.santalucia

llen wrote:

Thanks all for your advice.

Another plea for a reputable wheel builder in south wales / Bristol???

I don't know any and you won't find many who supply HED rims... PITA to get and the markup is very tiny. That said, if you are happy with a delivery both Just Riding Along and our friend The Cycle Clinic do supply and build them

on-yer-bike

Putting 25s on my Pegoretti has wrecked the underside of the rear brake and Ive often had stones stuck under the fork crown.

ugo.santalucia

on-yer-bike wrote:

Putting 25s on my Pegoretti has wrecked the underside of the rear brake and Ive often had stones stuck under the fork crown.

You should call Pegoretti and tell him that having a 92 cm wheelbase is a concept that has been abandoned in the late 80s... he should face reality that people want more clearance and bigger tyres... if you want I can shout at him in Italian...

FatTed

I bought my Rims from Seth Kay HED UK/HED Hire - Ciclismo Ltd
UNIT 1
NEEPSEND TRIANGLE BUSINESS CENTER
1 BURTON ROAD
SHEFFIELD
S3 8BW
T. 01142 767 767
Web: http://www.hedwheels.com

llen

Thanks all for your help. I've made a decision to go with the HED. I've also checked my budget and there are 3 options all about the same price point - unfortunately can't stretch to royce or higher end hubs. Which do you think is the best. A reminder I'm 85kg running a campagnolo 10 veloce group.

Option 1:

Stock HED Ardenne Plus LT (18/24h) with HED sonic hubs

Option 2 :

HED Belgium Plus rims (32h) with campagnolo record front and rear hubs (32h) and Sapim cx-Ray spokes.
What spoke pattern front and back is best with this????

Option 3:

HED Ardenne Plus rims (24h/28h) with hope mono rs front and rear hubs and Sapim cx-Ray spokes.
What spoke pattern front and back is best with this????

Option 4:

HED Ardenne Plus rims (24h/28h) with miche primato front and rear hubs and Sapim cx-Ray spokes.
What spoke pattern front and back is best with this????

Once I make this choice I'm ready to pull the trigger. Thanks in advance for all your advice.

ugo.santalucia

llen wrote:

unfortunately can't stretch to royce or higher end hubs. Which do you think is the best.

That's because all the options you mention have CX Ray spokes, which suck an extra 100 quid out of the bill. I had a set of wheels with CX Ray spokes... after extensive lapping around Richmond Park I concluded they make fuckall difference. I then calculated how much frontal area you save by going that route over a round spoke and it came out something around two square inches.
If you can upgrade your hubs, or save yourself 100 quid, ditch the CX Ray

cycleclinic

If you are going with a 32 spoke wheel set (and the record hubs would be the best choice for that) CX-ray spokes make less sence so you can just pick lasers and save cash. CX-rays are racing spokes and give that last bit of marginal gain. Use them if you all the bells and whistles. If you don't pick a round spoke.

As for the options you pick;
1) the hubs are O.K but are radial laced on the NDS rear - not always a great combo but HED do use locking nipples to prevent spoke unwinding. This combination use Sapim CX-sprint spokes (a thicker blade than the CX-ray), expensive to replace (£3.50 each) and only available from HED.
2) A long lived wheelset (well the spoke and hubs will last rims wear out I'm afriad), use lasers instead of Cx-rays for the same weight or make it even stiffer than you need with sapim race spokes. 3x lacing all round. Or go for the bling with CX-rays probably won't make much of a difference though.
3) radial or 2x front 2x or 3x rear. A good build. Cx-rays again won't make a whole lot of difference, I would myself use them if it were my own wheelset it is vanity though. In fact I have used silver CX-rays on a 28H record/belgian C2 tubular wheelset I have done for one of my training bikes. They look good that why I used them.
4) A sensible choice. The Miche hub use large bearings (6001C3) that are cheap. Hubs are very simple to work on (like Hope in that regards but a whole lot cheaper). Relaible too and like hope once bearing and freehub body bearings wear out all the bits can be changed making the hub run like new again. Unlike Hope freehubs are under £35). Lace the same way as the hope build. This give all of the marginal gains without having the high end hubs.

If it were me it would be a toss up between the 32H record, Miche, Shimano dura Ace 9000 (a 11 speed shimano cassette or miche HG11 one for that matter indexes perfectly with Campagnolo 11 speed) or Royce build.

To me this sort of wheelset is about having the very best you can have. So every part is the best you can have. If you want to save money there are various ways of doing it, picking the HED rim is not one of them.

DeVlaeminck

You can pick up Shamals for about £600 now or £630 for the 2 way fit - I wouldn't go much over that for some shallow rimmed wheels.

llen

Omg my head is properly in the shed now with all the options. I think I know what I'm going to do now but as it's a decent sum of money I've got to ask these question to be sure.

So in response to cycle clinic comment about the rims:
Coming from fulcrum 5's, all being equal tyre wise, will I notice the I extra 'comfort' of the extra 2mm width of the ardenne plus compared to say the aforementioned pacenti sl23's ( which seem to get great reviews everywhere) after all the whole reason I am choosing the hed over shamals is the comfort factor. IMO the hed's look better than the pacenti but pacenti are cheaper.

Am I right in assuming the following order of 'importance' when choosing where to spend your cash on a custom wheel build (taking aesthetics out of the equation):
Hubs
Rims
Spokes
Nipples


Thanks again all