50T to 52T big rings

Andycar82

Looking at changing my big ring from a 50 to a 52 T, I race in Triathlons and am strong over flat, will this be worth while?
Thanks

Grill

Too small. 55 minimum.

imposter2.0

Andycar82 wrote:

Looking at changing my big ring from a 50 to a 52 T, I race in Triathlons and am strong over flat, will this be worth while?
Thanks

If you can pull a 52, on the same sprocket on the rear, at the same cadence as the 50t, for a sustained period, then you will inevitably go faster. So in that sense, yes it will be worth while. In practice, nobody else can tell you whether it is worthwhile or not, because nobody else knows the answer to that question apart from you.

Grill

Honestly, if you're doing tris then you'll want bigger up front to get a better chainline. That's the reason you see a lot of tester riding 60T+ up front.

Pokerface

Grill wrote:

Honestly, if you're doing tris then you'll want bigger up front to get a better chainline. That's the reason you see a lot of tester riding 60T+ up front.

60T!? Really? Not even Tony Martin uses more than a 58!

Most testers in the UK will use between 53 and 55T up front.

Pokerface

Andycar82 wrote:

Looking at changing my big ring from a 50 to a 52 T, I race in Triathlons and am strong over flat, will this be worth while?
Thanks

Yes - it probably is worthwhile. Do you find yourself spinning out your 50-11 gear? If so, then you need a biggest gear. Or would you prefer to ride your top gear at a lower cadence? Then get a bigger gear. But if you don't race in your biggest gear most of the time then no real need to change (for instance if you find yourself racing/riding in the 50-14 gear, no need to change).

Grill

Pokerface wrote:

Grill wrote:

Honestly, if you're doing tris then you'll want bigger up front to get a better chainline. That's the reason you see a lot of tester riding 60T+ up front.

60T!? Really? Not even Tony Martin uses more than a 58!

Most testers in the UK will use between 53 and 55T up front.

Tops and Bowdler both ride bigger.

bernithebiker

Grill wrote:

Too small. 55 minimum.

There are some VERY fast triathletes round our way that ride 53*'s.

Are they doing it wrong?

*53-11 is good for at least 70km/h after all.....

Pokerface

Grill wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

Grill wrote:

Honestly, if you're doing tris then you'll want bigger up front to get a better chainline. That's the reason you see a lot of tester riding 60T+ up front.

60T!? Really? Not even Tony Martin uses more than a 58!

Most testers in the UK will use between 53 and 55T up front.

Tops and Bowdler both ride bigger.

Sure. I didn't say no one rides bigger. But MOST people will fall within the 53-55T range.

Isn't anything over 56t pretty much a custom job?

Pokerface

bernithebiker wrote:

Grill wrote:

Too small. 55 minimum.

There are some VERY fast triathletes round our way that ride 53*'s.

Are they doing it wrong?

*53-11 is good for at least 70km/h after all.....

Not everyone is comfortable pushing 53-11 at 115rpm or whatever it takes to make that gear hit 70kph. Personally I struggle to get the power out past 95-100rpm. I'ma grinder, not a spinner!

bernithebiker

Pokerface wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

Grill wrote:

Too small. 55 minimum.

There are some VERY fast triathletes round our way that ride 53*'s.

Are they doing it wrong?

*53-11 is good for at least 70km/h after all.....

Not everyone is comfortable pushing 53-11 at 115rpm or whatever it takes to make that gear hit 70kph. Personally I struggle to get the power out past 95-100rpm. I'ma grinder, not a spinner!

Sure, but round our way, on our tri courses, I don't think anyone, even the very fast guys are hitting 70km/h anywhere, there isn't a long/steep enough hill for that.

Grill

bernithebiker wrote:

Grill wrote:

Too small. 55 minimum.

There are some VERY fast triathletes round our way that ride 53*'s.

Are they doing it wrong?

*53-11 is good for at least 70km/h after all.....

Like I said bro, it's to get the best chainline at your given cadence. 53-11 is a rubbish chainline.

@Colin- Oh absolutely. I think both of them ride about 70rpm. Fibre-Lyte are doing my 54 carbon O's, and I know they did Nik's. I've seen 56 in a few brands so definitely available off the shelf.

bernithebiker

Grill wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

Grill wrote:

Too small. 55 minimum.

There are some VERY fast triathletes round our way that ride 53*'s.

Are they doing it wrong?

*53-11 is good for at least 70km/h after all.....

Like I said bro, it's to get the best chainline at your given cadence. 53-11 is a rubbish chainline.

@Colin- Oh absolutely. I think both of them ride about 70rpm. Fibre-Lyte are doing my 54 carbon O's, and I know they did Nik's. I've seen 56 in a few brands so definitely available off the shelf.

If the OP is debating going from 50 to 52, I'm not sure how much time he'll be spending in 53-11 on the average tri course?

So the chainline thing isn't really a big issue, as he'll most likely be in 53 - 15/14/13, etc.

Grill

Errr... Yeah. I think we're making the same point in different ways.

Andycar82

I am very much a novice when it comes to bike knowledge, my old bike had a 52 and I can change the 50T to 52T on my new bike without too much mucking about, just wondering why so many bike have 50/34s, I'm always spinning out on the false flats and I'm not brilliant! I notice that TTs start at 53 really, may ultimately end up with a TT bike

bernithebiker

Bear in mind too that we're talking triathlons here not TT's.

By the time you've got on the bike, you've already expended quite a bit of energy.

And you need to save some energy for the run, so can't give it everything on the cycle leg.

Your cycle leg of a tri is never going to be as fast as your best TT.

Pokerface

Andycar82 wrote:

just wondering why so many bike have 50/34s

Because they are good introductory gears to use. They suit most novice riders (and even some experienced ones!)

There is a small issue with trying to run a 34-52 chain set. The jump from small to big chainring is very big and will cause shifting problems. You normally see either 34-50 or 36-52.

Grill

bernithebiker wrote:

Bear in mind too that we're talking triathlons here not TT's.

By the time you've got on the bike, you've already expended quite a bit of energy.

And you need to save some energy for the run, so can't give it everything on the cycle leg.

Your cycle leg of a tri is never going to be as fast as your best TT.

No but there is a pretty big difference in position as well. For tris you're going to be quite a bit farther forward in order to put the onus on the quads and save the hamstrings for the run. The difference in FTP makes it even more important to save those last few watts with a clean chainline. Besides if Kona proved anything it's that you can win by caning everyone else on the bike and hold back a bit on the run. Kienle's position was far superior to the competition (wind tunnel made certain of that) and he was riding a 55/42 combo which was hardly chosen at random. Also with a bigger front ring you can ride a super tight spread like 11/12-21/23. So much more efficient than gaps.

Andycar82

That's an Iron Man, which I've done and may do again, but you don't need to be so conservative in a Sprint which I would prefer to focus on next year, will look into this further in spring, will stick on the winter hack in the 52/36 until then, which I've always felt comfortable on. Will go bigger for races

bernithebiker

Grill wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

Bear in mind too that we're talking triathlons here not TT's.

By the time you've got on the bike, you've already expended quite a bit of energy.

And you need to save some energy for the run, so can't give it everything on the cycle leg.

Your cycle leg of a tri is never going to be as fast as your best TT.

No but there is a pretty big difference in position as well. For tris you're going to be quite a bit farther forward in order to put the onus on the quads and save the hamstrings for the run. The difference in FTP makes it even more important to save those last few watts with a clean chainline. Besides if Kona proved anything it's that you can win by caning everyone else on the bike and hold back a bit on the run. Kienle's position was far superior to the competition (wind tunnel made certain of that) and he was riding a 55/42 combo which was hardly chosen at random. Also with a bigger front ring you can ride a super tight spread like 11/12-21/23. So much more efficient than gaps.

How many watts saved are we talking here? (due to chainline)

Presumably it depends on the course. It's all very well being in 55-15 on the flat, but if the course is a bit lumpy, and you're going up a long 1% rise in 55-18, haven't you just worsened your chainline (compared to 53-16 or 15)?

You can run an 11 speed 11-23 cassette with either set-up. No gaps. But with a 53, less chance of having to use the small ring.

In any case, it doesn't make much sense to compare elite Kona triathletes to the OP who by his own admission is a 'novice'.

Without details on his power output or times/speeds, any advice is pretty pointless.

Andycar82

I average around 29 kmph on a normal ride 40 miles, races about 34 kmph, my power estimates on Strava are always over 190, I think that a 52t/36t on my road bike would be beneficial from reading suggestions and ideas on here, will race it in local duathlons and see if I should still go bigger.

bernithebiker

Andycar82 wrote:

I average around 29 kmph on a normal ride 40 miles, races about 34 kmph, my power estimates on Strava are always over 190, I think that a 52t/36t on my road bike would be beneficial from reading suggestions and ideas on here, will race it in local duathlons and see if I should still go bigger.

Perfectly good stats, but I think it's safe to say you don't need a 55 chainring.

52/36 is great. And use a nice, tight cassette like an 11-23.

Andycar82

Yeah, 52t/36t will be what I will try for now, it's already on my winter bike. I ride generally at 29 kmph, race at 35 kmph for shorter Tris, power estimate on Strava over 190, that's on a 50t/34t so I guess I could get quicker with this adjustment on shorter flatter TRI's, to be honest, people worry about hills too much, I've always been comfortable on 52T/36t on hills. Unless your starting from a lowish level of aerobic fitness I think 50t/34t is pointless, if you don't know any better then fair enough

bernithebiker

Andycar82 wrote:

Yeah, 52t/36t will be what I will try for now, it's already on my winter bike. I ride generally at 29 kmph, race at 35 kmph for shorter Tris, power estimate on Strava over 190, that's on a 50t/34t so I guess I could get quicker with this adjustment on shorter flatter TRI's, to be honest, people worry about hills too much, I've always been comfortable on 52T/36t on hills. Unless your starting from a lowish level of aerobic fitness I think 50t/34t is pointless, if you don't know any better then fair enough

Horses for courses.

If you're doing tris then you're unlikely to encounter any hills that would justify a 50/34.

However, if you like big Alpine climbs (I do) then a 50/34 can be very useful (I use one).

Depends too on; are you a spinner (90+) or a grinder? (<75)

slowbike

Andycar82 wrote:

Yeah, 52t/36t will be what I will try for now, it's already on my winter bike. I ride generally at 29 kmph, race at 35 kmph for shorter Tris, power estimate on Strava over 190, that's on a 50t/34t so I guess I could get quicker with this adjustment on shorter flatter TRI's, to be honest, people worry about hills too much, I've always been comfortable on 52T/36t on hills. Unless your starting from a lowish level of aerobic fitness I think 50t/34t is pointless, if you don't know any better then fair enough

My speeds are similar to yours - I've got 53/39 on my TT setup with a 25-11 cassette - it's fine for the sporting courses I ride and I don't use the 39 ring until we do the hilly courses.
I've got a compact on the road bike and that's fine too - I tend to hit the hills more often on that so the easier gear is handy, the 50 ring is still good for ~20mph average on the flat too, but with a 27-12 cassette I just don't bother spinning down any steeper descents ..

imposter2.0

Slowbike wrote:

the 50 ring is still good for ~20mph average on the flat too, but with a 27-12 cassette I just don't bother spinning down any steeper descents ..

50/12 is good for 35+mph on the flat..

slowbike

Imposter wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

the 50 ring is still good for ~20mph average on the flat too, but with a 27-12 cassette I just don't bother spinning down any steeper descents ..

50/12 is good for 35+mph on the flat..

If you can put the power out at >100rpm - I tend to pedal abit slower than that - at around 80-85 which at 20mph puts me in the middle of the cassette and at the same cadence I could reach ~28mph - a 53 front ring (on the 12) would take that to just 29.4mph (at 85rpm) - or the 52 ring would be 28.8mph - not a huge difference and it mostly comes down to power available to push at those speeds.

Andycar82

I ride about 28/29 kph most hilly rides, short races about 35 kph, Strava estimated power output is 190 or over, I think strengthening in the 52t/36t would be a good start, then seeing about a TT bike, I have always felt comfortable with hills or flat in this on my old bike anyway, surprised now looking at it that so many bikes are smaller. Never gave it much thought previously! Thanks

Grill

bernithebiker wrote:

Grill wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

Bear in mind too that we're talking triathlons here not TT's.

By the time you've got on the bike, you've already expended quite a bit of energy.

And you need to save some energy for the run, so can't give it everything on the cycle leg.

Your cycle leg of a tri is never going to be as fast as your best TT.

No but there is a pretty big difference in position as well. For tris you're going to be quite a bit farther forward in order to put the onus on the quads and save the hamstrings for the run. The difference in FTP makes it even more important to save those last few watts with a clean chainline. Besides if Kona proved anything it's that you can win by caning everyone else on the bike and hold back a bit on the run. Kienle's position was far superior to the competition (wind tunnel made certain of that) and he was riding a 55/42 combo which was hardly chosen at random. Also with a bigger front ring you can ride a super tight spread like 11/12-21/23. So much more efficient than gaps.

How many watts saved are we talking here? (due to chainline)

Presumably it depends on the course. It's all very well being in 55-15 on the flat, but if the course is a bit lumpy, and you're going up a long 1% rise in 55-18, haven't you just worsened your chainline (compared to 53-16 or 15)?

You can run an 11 speed 11-23 cassette with either set-up. No gaps. But with a 53, less chance of having to use the small ring.

In any case, it doesn't make much sense to compare elite Kona triathletes to the OP who by his own admission is a 'novice'.

Without details on his power output or times/speeds, any advice is pretty pointless.

I should probably clarify that my first post suggesting a 55 was in jest (probably should have followed it with the relevant emoticon), but I standby the 'bigger is better' for TT and Tri (compact is perfectly acceptable for everyday riding).

You'll save a couple watts with a good chainline, and the example of a long 1% grade isn't an issue as any sort of power climb lends itself well to a big gear.

From a power perspective, mine is rubbish, but I turn a big ring at a decent 90-105 cadence on TT's. Gearing changes depending on course and I'll happily use a 12-23 if needed. Really I've derailed this thread a bit with my own perspective, but it's just to reassure the OP that a bigger gear for his program is just fine.

Andycar82

People are saying not a huge difference, but it's not a big change to the bike and for the improvement it seems a no brainer, I've got a Wilier GTR which I've been racing this year, bike leg is my weakest, but I'm not crap! So strengthening with bigger chain rings would benefit hugely I'm starting to believe, and anyone who is in awe of pros doing the speeds they do should perhaps look at there 50t/34ts and stop wondering, I have never looked into this before, and may well just get a BMC time machine next spring!

imposter2.0

Andycar82 wrote:

People are saying not a huge difference, but it's not a big change to the bike and for the improvement it seems a no brainer, I've got a Wilier GTR which I've been racing this year, bike leg is my weakest, but I'm not crap! So strengthening with bigger chain rings would benefit hugely I'm starting to believe, and anyone who is in awe of pros doing the speeds they do should perhaps look at there 50t/34ts and stop wondering, I have never looked into this before, and may well just get a BMC time machine next spring!

Not really sure what you are saying there, tbh. If you can't already push 50/12 at 35mph (which very few can sustain on their own), then switching to a 52 will not make it any easier to go faster. All else being equal, if you switch to a 52 now, you will just end up using a sprocket a little bit further up the block and the same/similar gear inches that you were using on the 50t anyway...