Winstanleys not covering themselves in glory...

Angus Young

Well, I didn’t think I was going to have to put up one of these threads…

Dealing directly with clients as I do I understand that when things go wrong (as they inevitably will from time to time) it is up to me to make sure the client is in no doubt that everything humanly possible has been done to put the situation right. The normal rules of engagement are suspended and all the stops are pulled out in an effort to turn a negative into a positive. Seems that when they get things wrong WInstanleys’ MO is to treat it as any other work day, rules is rules. And bear in mind that we’re talking about one tyre here, not, say, a 4K bike which I would completely understand if they didn’t want to send out before the return of the previous item. Thankfully this sort of attitude is not universal.

I’m sure many of you will have had a perfectly acceptable experience with Winstanleys, but this is an example of how they deal with things when they screw up. None of this is the end of the world, but I am rather amazed at this notion of Customer Service.

Here’s the exchange…




Re Order 99XXXX

Hello

With reference to the above details, I've just had delivered the wrong tyre. I ordered a Maxxis Ardent Race 3C EXO Tubeless Ready 27.5 Inch Folding Tyre (Product Code: BEK7798) but received a Maxxis Minion DHR II.

Please can you arrange for delivery of the correct tyre and collection of the Minion. I assume it makes sense for the Minion to be collected at the same time as the Ardent is delivered. I'm in the middle of a build so it would be great if this could be sorted a.s.a.p.

Many thanks
K…




Hi K…,

Thanks for the email.

I am sorry to hear the incorrect items was delivered.
Can you please let me know a week day I can arrange to collect it from you. Someone will need to be available to sign the couriers paperwork.
I will reserve a replacement in your account, once I receive the tyre back I will do the swap.

Theresa
Returns Manager
Winstanleys Bikes




Hi there

I work from home so I'm in any time. Any chance you could do a deliver and collect rather than waiting for the tyre to get back to you - I'm building up a bike and have all the other parts but I'm stuck on that tyre now.

By the way, the confusion comes from the fact that what looks to be one of your internal identifying barcode labels which identifies the tyre as the Ardent has been stuck on a Minion. Probably worth checking that on the new tyre before you send it out in case more than one has been miss-labeled.

Cheers
K…




HI K…,

Thanks for your email, with regards to your query we cannot arrange for a collection and delivery on the same day as we have to have the tyre back here before we send out the replacement. What day would be best for you for collection? Is tomorrow ok?

If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us, we will be happy to help.

Kindest regards,

Angela
Customer Services
Winstanleys Bikes




I'm sorry, is this your idea of customer service? Really? You screw up a very simple order (one tyre which, by the way, is identifiable in a number of places both on the packaging and on the product itself) which means I now have an unfinished build and have had to cancel a trip with a friend to ride the Surrey Hills (on a day he'd booked off work), and now you expect me to sit here twiddling my thumbs while we do it your way? Seriously? Is this how Winstanleys goes about Customer Services? Because, you know, if it had been me receiving my original email the first thing I would have done would have been to fire off an email telling the customer that a replacement tyre was already on its way and arrangements were being made to pick up the incorrect tyre at the customer's convenience. If I'm being unreasonable, please do let me know.

You finish your email with "we will be happy to help”. Then do so.

Regards
K…

p.s. As mentioned already (did you even read my previous email?), I work from home so I'm in any time.




HI K…,
 
I have arranged a collection fro tomorrow, please ensure the tyre is packaged back p, Parcel force will have an address label to stick on. Unfortunately I am not able to send out any replacement products until the original is back here, it is part of our return procedure. I am very sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.
 
Kindest regards,
 
Angela
Customer Services
Winstanleys Bikes




I’m guessing that Customer Services is not exactly a vocation for you.

Let me try to explain this once more in simple terms…

You screwed up, your customer was massively inconvenienced as a result. Your customer does not, and should not, expect to be inconvenienced a second time because you screwed up. It is now up to you to accept the burden of inconvenience because you screwed up. Because you screwed up your normal returns procedure no longer counts. When you screw up you move heaven and earth to put things right.

I am, quite frankly, amazed that none of this is immediately evident to you.

O.K. collect and dispatch it is, then.

K…

p.s. Please note, if you wish to review the course of this exchange you’ll find it on Bike Radar and other forums.

Barnymeinhoff

On the one hand, customer service operatives are just doing what they are told...if you are getting poor service ( and I believe you are. ) its because of the set up there and not the individual delivering the news, if you are not happy call and ask to speak to a manager, they get paid to take crap.

other than that you have a perfectly valid point.

cooldad

It's the normal way of doing things. Send it back they send a replacement. (Same as Wiggle, CRC etc etc.)

Not sure why you are stressing out that much, unless you are special in some way.

If you need something urgently, there are things called shops.

Angus Young

Barnymeinhoff wrote:

On the one hand, customer service operatives are just doing what they are told...if you are getting poor service ( and I believe you are. ) its because of the set up there and not the individual delivering the news, if you are not happy call and ask to speak to a manager, they get paid to take crap.

other than that you have a perfectly valid point.

Of course, it's not the individual, it's the company that needs to get its act together.

cooldad wrote:

It's the normal way of doing things. Send it back they send a replacement. (Same as Wiggle, CRC etc etc.)

Not sure why you are stressing out that much, unless you are special in some way.

If you need something urgently, there are things called shops.

I ordered a pair of shoes from an online retailer a few weeks back. I'd ordered the wrong size. They dispatched the correct size immediately, two days before they collected the first pair. And that wasn't even their fault. I'll shop with them again.

Not stressing - as I said, none of this is the end of the world but it is in opposition to how I go about customer service and, in this day and age, when your competition is only a click away, you need to be on your toes. Even a fulsome, rather than perfunctory, apology would have gone some way to smoothing things over.

Unfortunately there are no shops anywhere near me that carries the item I wanted, not to mention that the tyre was ordered in good time for its intended use.

veronese68

Courier companies won't generally do a swap of one part for another at the same time, the collection and delivery are separate and they won't guarantee doing them at the same time.
In that situation we would offer to send out a replacement, charging for the tyre, but not the carriage, and credit the wrong one when it got back. That way the customer would have a resolution quicker and if the wrong part doesn't get returned it has been paid for.

The Rookie

This is common, usually I just order the part I wanted (again) paying for it while sending back the wrong part for a full refund.

Many online retailers do this, stops them getting ripped off by people who don't return the defective/wrong item.

Angus Young

Veronese68 wrote:

In that situation we would offer to send out a replacement, charging for the tyre, but not the carriage, and credit the wrong one when it got back. That way the customer would have a resolution quicker and if the wrong part doesn't get returned it has been paid for.

Yes, just one of the many ways this could have been dealt with more efficiently.

The Rookie wrote:

Many online retailers do this, stops them getting ripped off by people who don't return the defective/wrong item.

While I understand they need to keep a check on chancers, there should always be room to be flexible when goodwill is called for.

Angus Young

The Rookie wrote:

This is common, usually I just order the part I wanted (again) paying for it while sending back the wrong part for a full refund.

Ah ha! Good thinking. I've just ordered another Ardent, for next day delivery. Off someone else.

cooldad

Hope it wasn't CRC, their next day is about a week longer than normal delivery, which is often next day.

Angus Young

cooldad wrote:

Hope it wasn't CRC, their next day is about a week longer than normal delivery, which is often next day.

Ha, ha, no, Stiff, who are promising a before 1pm for tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

Unfortunately the old wheels are off the bike, scrubbed and packed for ebaying so I couldn't go back to those, so I hope there's no more delay.

TheGava

My last 2 orders from CRC have been next day and I only ever go with free postage! Suppose it's a bit hit and miss, normally when you really need something it's late, or when it's not important ie for a build it comes next day! Only way to do it is go to a shop, but then they normally don't have it in stock..

I did have to laugh when I got my tyres from 'next day tyres' and they came the day after...... Not that I was bothered, excellent customer service and best prices at the time!

diy

The confusion here is that the seller seems to think she has a right to get the wrong goods back before shipping the new goods. This is not correct. Shipping the wrong item is a failure to perform the contract and you are under no obligation to have the wrong items return linked to the performance of this contract. Further the law changed on this on 13th June placing further obligations and creating a criminal offence on sellers who don't comply.

Either live with her terms as not worth the fuss or refer her to The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 and point out the error of her ways and possible offences being committed.

Personally I always found their service good and prices cheap, but they do need to read the new legislation, update their ts and cs and start complying.

The Rookie

diy wrote:

The confusion here is that the seller seems to think she has a right to get the wrong goods back before shipping the new goods. This is not correct. Shipping the wrong item is a failure to perform the contract and you are under no obligation to have the wrong items return linked to the performance of this contract..

So sue for breach of contract, that is the only way to make them conform to what you think they should....that wont be very quick though!....the seller only has the customers word (presumably) that the wrong part has been sent.....

Angus Young

diy wrote:

The confusion here is that the seller seems to think she has a right to get the wrong goods back before shipping the new goods. This is not correct. Shipping the wrong item is a failure to perform the contract and you are under no obligation to have the wrong items return linked to the performance of this contract.

Yes, that sums it up very nicely.

diy wrote:

Either live with her terms as not worth the fuss or refer her to The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 and point out the error of her ways and possible offences being committed.

I don't think it's really worth getting into any more of a punch up over one tyre - they know, now, how I feel and I've ordered a tyre from elsewhere. In the end I'll get a tyre, they'll lose my business and the world will keep turning.

diy wrote:

Personally I always found their service good and prices cheap...

Although it might not sound like it, this thread is not intended to slag Winstanleys off. As I said, I'm sure that most people have had a perfectly acceptable experience with them. I am, though, somewhat baffled by their refusal to grasp the opportunity to spread some good will and reap the feel-good from that. This thread would be very different if they had.

The Rookie wrote:

diy wrote:

The confusion here is that the seller seems to think she has a right to get the wrong goods back before shipping the new goods. This is not correct. Shipping the wrong item is a failure to perform the contract and you are under no obligation to have the wrong items return linked to the performance of this contract..

So sue for breach of contract, that is the only way to make them conform to what you think they should....that wont be very quick though!....the seller only has the customers word (presumably) that the wrong part has been sent.....

As I say, it's only one tyre, and I've taken a different route now. As for proof - if that had been requested I could easily have furnished a quick snap of the mis-labelled product.

veronese68

Angus Young wrote:

While I understand they need to keep a check on chancers, there should always be room to be flexible when goodwill is called for.

Very much so. That's why it should always be free carriage on the replacement as a bit of goodwill, whilst covering your aris by having the part paid for.
Sending a picture is a good idea, I often ask for one from my customers. If I go to the warehouse manager with a photograph of a screw in a bag with a label saying "exhaust pipe" on it helps illustrate my point that perhaps the pickers have screwed up. Unfortunately with international shipping and large car parts the cost of fixing picking errors can get rather more expensive.

monkimark

Similar thing happened to me with CRC - they sent the correct item out (arrived next day I think) and told me to keep the incorrect one to say sorry. Value of the item (a cheapo stem) was quite low so I guess they were looking at the cost of return post Vs the value of the stem but still thought it was jolly decent of them.

Angus Young

Veronese68 wrote:

Sending a picture is a good idea, I often ask for one from my customers. If I go to the warehouse manager with a photograph of a screw in a bag with a label saying "exhaust pipe" on it helps illustrate my point that perhaps the pickers have screwed up.

Perhaps I should have sent a photo, but I didn't think I was going to come up against heels being dug in.

monkimark wrote:

Similar thing happened to me with CRC - they sent the correct item out (arrived next day I think) and told me to keep the incorrect one to say sorry. Value of the item (a cheapo stem) was quite low so I guess they were looking at the cost of return post Vs the value of the stem but still thought it was jolly decent of them.

Exactly. So, even though you know they made a commercial decision based on cost, you now feel better disposed towards CRC. It's called, er... customer service.

kajjal

If this happens to me I just order the correct item again and at the same time get them to refund the mistaken order. That way I get what I want straight away and then sort the refund out.

It is unlikely a business will send out a replacement without checking the original order / goods as it exposes them to risk / cost. To be fair most orders these days are fine.

Caveman_Chris

I think it's down to customer relations/company reputation vs the potential loss of a product.

After all, you could give the courier any old tyre and they probably wouldn't know the difference. I have first hand experience of this involving a £1k tv

Also, if they lose your business forever, will they be particularly bothered? I imagine that they have lots of customers not spending a great deal. Whereas myself, and possibly you, deal with a smaller number and more finite 'clients' where the loss of their business would have a much bigger effect overall. So quite often we bend over backwards to keep them happy.

I personally, quite often pay a premium for good customer service, and at work it does get us clients back even though we are almost certainly the most expensive option that they have, by quite a bit.

Just playing devil's advocate

CC

stubs

Winstanleys used to be legendary for the shite service the attitude was give us your money and fuck off.

Saying that the last time I had a problem with them they were excellent maybe you hit someone having a crap day.

lbalony

Absolute Cringe! The poor sales assistant. Just trying to do her job she is paid to do. How on earth does she know your not pulling a fast one? Items wrong, return it and await the replacement. Or visit your local bike shop. Or pop into the online store with it to exchange it. This is whats wrong with the world. Lets demand things outside the scope of what is on offer!

cooldad

Awesomely pointless quote fail.

Followed by sneaky edit.

Angus Young

lbalony wrote:

The poor sales assistant. Just trying to do her job she is paid to do.

Read the thread.

lbalony wrote:

How on earth does she know your not pulling a fast one?

Read the thread.

lbalony wrote:

Items wrong, return it and await the replacement.

Read the thread.

lbalony wrote:

Or visit your local bike shop.

Read the thread.

lbalony wrote:

Or pop into the online store with it to exchange it.

Eh?

lbalony wrote:

This is whats wrong with the world. Lets demand things outside the scope of what is on offer!

Yes, how dare I expect them to pull out all the stops in the name of customer service when they make a cöck up.

lbalony

cooldad wrote:

Awesomely pointless quote fail.

Followed by sneaky edit.

:oops:

lbalony

I had a read through again just for you. You still sound self important and demanding. Your still insulting to the young girl doing her job. I understand you want the red carpet treatment because of the simple mishap, but if thats not tgeir process they cannot provide it! Its best to just re-buy rather than upsetting yourself and others, and then return the faulty/incorrect item. (Which I have read that you did)

Angus Young

lbalony wrote:

I had a read through again just for you. You still sound self important and demanding. Your still insulting to the young girl doing her job. I understand you want the red carpet treatment because of the simple mishap, but if thats not tgeir process they cannot provide it! Its best to just re-buy rather than upsetting yourself and others, and then return the faulty/incorrect item. (Which I have read that you did)

I suspect your mind was made up before you'd finished the opening post. Your choice of language gives you away: "... the young girl doing her job." I have no idea who I was dealing with. It could have been anyone from "the young girl doing her job" to the Commander In Chief who came up with The Rules That Must Be Obeyed. If I were to guess, given that I dealt with two people and was, seemingly, handed off from one to the other the second person, at least, was somewhere further up the food chain than just "the young girl doing her job".

I'm not "upset" and I don't care if I upset people who are wilfully not doing their jobs. I'd guess that you don't run your own business (correct me if I'm wrong). The most important measure of any company is how it deals with its customers. Whether you're selling bike parts, dealing with the large companies as I do, you're Tom Cruise taking selfies with your fans for two hours before a premiere or you sell fish fingers in a corner shop, one thing you should never forget is that it's your customers who pay your mortgage. When I take on a project, rules of engagement are agreed before we proceed. And we stick to them... unless something goes wrong. If it's my fault, I do anything I possibly can to make it right. All previous arrangements are suspended and whatever needs to be done gets done, however inconvenient it is for me. I don't turn round and say "I'm terribly sorry I made a mistake, I really am, but we're just going to carry on as if I didn't and you'll get a resolution when it suits me. Sorry, but these are the rules."

Bottom line is, they've got crappy systems. Would it really have killed them to send the correct tyre out the moment they were informed of their error, keep the old one on charge and then refund me upon its return? Do you really think that's being unreasonable, self important or demanding?

lbalony

I could correct you on many points. I could explain myself, but to be honest I could not be bothered reading another of your self important very judgemental and patronising rants. By the way the company I'm involved with has a NPS OF 71 (50 is world class). Im sorry if my grammar or language isn't up to scratch, but typing on an iPhone while watching tv, talking or doing a job it can sometimes be hit and miss.

Hope you like your new tyre and it was a good experience this time!

Angus Young

So you do think expecting them send the correct tyre out, keeping the old one on charge and then refunding me upon its return is unreasonable, self important and demanding?

redddraggon

Angus Young wrote:

So you do think expecting them send the correct tyre out, keeping the old one on charge and then refunding me upon its return is unreasonable, self important and demanding?

I don't think it's unreasonable.

A few years ago I bought a Titanium frame from Planet X, and they sent the wrong one out, rang them up (at nearly 5pm) - they sent the correct frame that day to get to me the next day, and I was told to give the courier the wrong frame - I never asked for it. That was a £1K frame, not a £30 tyre, they were willing to send out before receiving the original one back!

Tbh I would consider it poor customer service, but I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist about it. Some companies go the extra mile others just don't give a toss once they have your money in the bank.

Angus Young

redddraggon wrote:

Angus Young wrote:

So you do think expecting them send the correct tyre out, keeping the old one on charge and then refunding me upon its return is unreasonable, self important and demanding?

I don't think it's unreasonable.

A few years ago I bought a Titanium frame from Planet X, and they sent the wrong one out, rang them up (at nearly 5pm) - they sent the correct frame that day to get to me the next day, and I was told to give the courier the wrong frame - I never asked for it. That was a £1K frame, not a £30 tyre, they were willing to send out before receiving the original one back!

Tbh I would consider it poor customer service, but I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist about it. Some companies go the extra mile others just don't give a toss once they have your money in the bank.

Exactly. And in this day and age when your competition is only a click away, they all should.

I don't really care too much about the tyre itself (apart from the afore mentioned missed ride), it's not a big deal. But I do take issue with people not accepting responsibility for their errors, which is what Winstanleys have done by refusing to pul out any extra stops and insisting on proceeding as if nothing had happened. If you make a mistake, put it right. It's simply good business.

p.s. Some nice pics there on your flickr page.

njee20

Tbh I would consider it poor customer service, but I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist about it. Some companies go the extra mile others just don't give a toss once they have your money in the bank.

This, and you come across as a dick.