Another new wheels thread...

Deet001

Hi, I've read a lot of opinions on whether bike weight makes a difference but a lot of that focuses on speed whereas my focus is on energy used. I'll be doing a couple of pretty climb-intensive rides early next year which I'm in training for - I don't care how fast I am, I just care about having enough energy to keep going for a whole day of climbing. My bike (Specialized Crux) has Axis 1.0 wheels which I can't find much about but believe they weigh around the 2.5kg mark.

I'm probably a couple of kgs from being race fit myself but once I've lost those will lighter wheels (say 1.5kg) make a significant difference to how tired I'll be after 12 hours of hills?

By the way, I'd like to be able to do this without adding a granny ring though no doubt that would make a bigger difference.

bontie

Deet, Welcome to the forum. I am no expert, but in my experience there should be a big difference felt between a 2500g set of wheels and a good set of wheels around 1500g (which can be had easily and cheaply these days). However, the law of diminishing return apply, and in many respect there is not such a big difference between a 1400g set and an 1100g set.
So for what you are planning to do, a wheel upgrade is likely to make a big difference as you’ll get significantly better quality for not a lot of money.
*This is my view only, there are many experts here who may have different opinions.

lawrences

Probably won't make you significantly less tired but the bike should ride much more nicely. 2.5kg is a heavy wheelset.

Just look for around 1500 grams with a wide(ish) rim.

ugo.santalucia

Deet001 wrote:

I'm probably a couple of kgs from being race fit myself but once I've lost those will lighter wheels (say 1.5kg) make a significant difference to how tired I'll be after 12 hours of hills?

When was the last time you did 12 hours of hills? :shock:

imposter2.0

Knocking a kilo off your bike will make a difference when going uphill. Your relative fatigue levels will depend more on your overall fitness though, rather than the weight of your wheels, tbh...

intheknowcycling.com

Axis 1.0 wheels claimed weight is 1950 grams. Would focus first on getting your body weight down. Check out this chart to see relative benefits and costs in dropping weight from your body vs. bike vs. wheels for climbing purposes. http://intheknowcycling.files.wordpress ... weight.png

cycleclinic

when comparing weights of wheels compar like with like. No road wheelset is 2.5kg bare (unless is a touring wheelset), it is 2.5kg with tyres e.t.c skewers and the like.

If you want to go quicker up a hill alot of weight has to shaved of. If your is 10 kg to make a meaning full difference make it 7kg, that will have some effect. If you bike is 7kg already then you will have to make it so light you belong on weight weenies and will have a big following in your endevours. Simply changing the wheels alone to save 500g may make the bike feel a bit nicer but actually maing you quicker up a climb, it won't well may be by a few seconds on a very long one but is that worth it. What makes a difference is your fittness and oddly enough aero dymanic. Simple aero trumpts weight in almost every situation unless the climb is stupidly steep for a long time.

What has helped me up the hills is losing 5 kg of body weight and training lots. The bike has not changed it is still 8kg but I have got faster. A light wheelset is not a replacement for fitness it does not even come close. The exception would be for hill climb events where every second counts then a superlight 1kg wheelset will be of some advantage. Pretty specialist though.

northpole

Slightly off topic but related - you'll need to give particular consideration to gearing if you are going to be spending a long time on climbs. Not much worse than running out of gears when your energy levels fall away!

Better, lighter wheels will help you but as others have stated and I have had mercilessly demonstrated on several occasions, fitness is the key!

Peter

Deet001

Thanks for your very helpful replies everyone. By the way, I estimated the weight of the Axis 1.0 wheelset based on a post I read about the next wheelset up - the Axis 2.0 - which stated they weigh 2.4kg, clearly that was a bit off!

I've lost 13kgs over the last few months with a couple to go but am a big guy so never going to be a great climber. Aiming at doing an Everesting challenge early next year, estimating it'll actually take about 18 hours on a 8-9% climb. No way fit enough to do it now, most climbing I've done in a day before is 2000 metres. I just want to make it as do-able as possible without relying on the crutch of majorly low gears.

I was looking at Fulcrum Racing Zeros but maybe could go a cheaper set, the 1s or 3s maybe. That's if I can get an answer from Fulcrum on whether they're compatible with my 9spd Shimano Sora cassette, does anyone know?

Bobbinogs

I think this comes down to the law of diminishing returns and want over need.

Getting a cost effective set of wheels like the Zondas will suffice and offer very decent performance, after that it comes down to how much to want to spend more than any real increase in performance or tangible weight saving. As you know, increasing from 2,000m climbing per day to a shedload is your bigger challenge. I would not be worrying about light weight wheels now...I would get some decent all weather riders (think well built handbuilts or cheap winter wheels) and train well throughout the winter but not obsessively. Buy some lighter wheels in the spring (but you don't need to spend more than £300). Good luck. Personally, I can't think of anything worse than repeatedly riding the same hill and would rather set myself a challenge like doing the Marmotte or one of the other fancy sportives (Maratona, etc.).

ugo.santalucia

Deet001 wrote:

Aiming at doing an Everesting challenge early next year, estimating it'll actually take about 18 hours on a 8-9% climb.

Don't you kind of miss the days when mountain roads had a name and weren't mere statistics to add to your Strava profile?

"I've climbed the Tourmalet today!"... well done, how was that?...
"I've climbed the bridge over the M25 300 times today!"... I'll get the paperwork to sign the get you sectioned... :roll:

Deet001

Ha ha, you have a point! Fear not, though, this everesting thing started as local hill training for a far more interesting (hopefully - destination hasn't been decided, yet) trip but ended up probably being harder than the trip itself so thought I'd better focus my question on it.

In favour of everesting, though, my gf can pop out every few hours to supply me with tea.

ugo.santalucia

Sign up for the Tour du Mont Blanc.. 200 miles and 8000 metres of climbing... that's the manly way of doing this Everesting nonsense

northpole

I did the Maratona this year - what a fantastic day out that was - my best cycling experience thus far.

Two things you mentioned: You're a big lad & Racing Zeros. Depending on how big a lad you are, you may need to exercise a bit of caution on the wheels you choose. I have Zeros and think they're terrific BUT I heard from two other people who are big boned and they suffered failures - the suspicion was that they may have been overloaded. They raised the point with me 'cause I'm not the lightest at circa 85kg.

Peter

Deet001

Hmm, I'm 200cm and 92kg so maybe should avoid the zeroes... Those Zondas that Bobbinogs recommended look pretty good, though.

Tour of Mont Blanc looks terrifying but would be awesome - will go on the shortlist, thanks!

lawrences

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

Axis 1.0 wheels claimed weight is 1950 grams. Would focus first on getting your body weight down. Check out this chart to see relative benefits and costs in dropping weight from your body vs. bike vs. wheels for climbing purposes. http://intheknowcycling.files.wordpress ... weight.png

What the hell is that chart showing me?

I honestly think you live in your own world.

ugo.santalucia

lawrences wrote:

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

Axis 1.0 wheels claimed weight is 1950 grams. Would focus first on getting your body weight down. Check out this chart to see relative benefits and costs in dropping weight from your body vs. bike vs. wheels for climbing purposes. http://intheknowcycling.files.wordpress ... weight.png

What the hell is that chart showing me?

I honestly think you live in your own world.

+1

MisterMuncher

Brilliantly, cites himself as a source. Gluebag.

letap73

MisterMuncher wrote:

Brilliantly, cites himself as a source. Gluebag.

Yes nice post- not sure what's happening on BR but there seems to be a bandwagon to jump on a poster after a well established poster has had a go. I don't always agree with in the know cycling.com but at least he/she is trying to offer advice - albeit in a very clunky way (trying to effectively make the same point that cycle clinic has made in a dodgy quantitative fashion).

cycleclinic

My dodgy qnautative way is the same method used by those online calculators, if I posted the results of an online claculator though there is no way of knowing how the result was arrived at hense a while back I went throught the maths. The model is quite accurate actually if the imput data is correct and thats the trick with any model, which is were your comment of dosgy many come from, I woudl agree. A model has limits ashould be taken to seriously, but a general trend in the results do emerge.

southdownswolf

lawrences wrote:

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

Axis 1.0 wheels claimed weight is 1950 grams. Would focus first on getting your body weight down. Check out this chart to see relative benefits and costs in dropping weight from your body vs. bike vs. wheels for climbing purposes. http://intheknowcycling.files.wordpress ... weight.png

What the hell is that chart showing me?

I honestly think you live in your own world.

It shows me how dodgy it can be looking for advice on the internet :shock:

intheknowcycling.com

southdownswolf wrote:

lawrences wrote:

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

Axis 1.0 wheels claimed weight is 1950 grams. Would focus first on getting your body weight down. Check out this chart to see relative benefits and costs in dropping weight from your body vs. bike vs. wheels for climbing purposes. http://intheknowcycling.files.wordpress ... weight.png

What the hell is that chart showing me?

I honestly think you live in your own world.

It shows me how dodgy it can be looking for advice on the internet :shock:

You guys make me chuckle. OP says he can't find out how much his wheels weigh; I tell him. OP asks whether a 1.5kg wheel will make a significant difference to how he feels after his 12 hour ride. I tell him to focus on lowering his body weight. I provide him link to chart quantifying how little benefit buying a lighter wheel or bike will bring him and at what cost.

Some respondents to OP suggests buying a lighter wheel, others suggest a lighter bike. Both will bring minimal benefits at great costs relative to shedding body weight (quantified in yes a chart from my article on climbing wheels; I would have gladly provided someone else's chart and saved myself the work if it was available). Another respondent basically says what I have - lose body weight and forget about lighter wheel or bike unless a few seconds count. We all like him and ignore what reads like something he's written after a long day of work or perhaps a few pints.

Others comment on the OPs 12 hour climbing quest. Another gets bored and lazy (especially for a scholar) and starts acting like a boorish football fan. Others join in. Good fun. Little value.

Everyone offers their own perspective on this forum; some are well researched or based on real experience and add real value to OPs question. Others are wrong or add only comic value. Buyer/reader beware. I'm amused.

Deet001 - Good luck with your day of climbing. Keep your focus on losing weight and improving your fitness.

lawrences

thecycleclinic wrote:

My dodgy qnautative way is the same method used by those online calculators, if I posted the results of an online claculator though there is no way of knowing how the result was arrived at hense a while back I went throught the maths. The model is quite accurate actually if the imput data is correct and thats the trick with any model, which is were your comment of dosgy many come from, I woudl agree. A model has limits ashould be taken to seriously, but a general trend in the results do emerge.

Post deleted

Deet001

Thanks everyone. I'm gonna train on the wheels I have and get the Zondas before the ride, if only to stop myself thinking "oh man, if only I'd got those wheels" when I'm half way through.

ugo.santalucia

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

southdownswolf wrote:

lawrences wrote:

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

Axis 1.0 wheels claimed weight is 1950 grams. Would focus first on getting your body weight down. Check out this chart to see relative benefits and costs in dropping weight from your body vs. bike vs. wheels for climbing purposes. http://intheknowcycling.files.wordpress ... weight.png

What the hell is that chart showing me?

I honestly think you live in your own world.

It shows me how dodgy it can be looking for advice on the internet :shock:

You guys make me chuckle. OP says he can't find out how much his wheels weigh; I tell him. OP asks whether a 1.5kg wheel will make a significant difference to how he feels after his 12 hour ride. I tell him to focus on lowering his body weight. I provide him link to chart quantifying how little benefit buying a lighter wheel or bike will bring him and at what cost.

Some respondents to OP suggests buying a lighter wheel, others suggest a lighter bike. Both will bring minimal benefits at great costs relative to shedding body weight (quantified in yes a chart from my article on climbing wheels; I would have gladly provided someone else's chart and saved myself the work if it was available). Another respondent basically says what I have - lose body weight and forget about lighter wheel or bike unless a few seconds count. We all like him and ignore what reads like something he's written after a long day of work or perhaps a few pints.

Others comment on the OPs 12 hour climbing quest. Another gets bored and lazy (especially for a scholar) and starts acting like a boorish football fan. Others join in. Good fun. Little value.

Everyone offers their own perspective on this forum; some are well researched or based on real experience and add real value to OPs question. Others are wrong or add only comic value. Buyer/reader beware. I'm amused.

Deet001 - Good luck with your day of climbing. Keep your focus on losing weight and improving your fitness.

You are trying to be helpful, no doubt... what I struggle with, as I told you already, is your method.
You seem to review and compare a large number of wheels but a review should be based on first hand experience. In your article I don't see that... I just see you mentioning "criteria" over and over but then not providing metrics to back up your conclusions. Also, you use photos taken by others and I assume you haven't actually ridden the wheels you review. Where do you get the information? Who is assessing stiffness or braking performance relative to other products?

intheknowcycling.com

Ugo - You don't like my reviews and methods. I get it. I'm not a fan of handbuilt wheels being your answer to most post queries. But so what? Neither has anything to do with this OP's specific question. You've got a point to make about my answer to an OP's question? Fine, lets hear it.

For what it's worth, I detail how I do my reviews in the About page on my site. But to answer your questions, my reviews are based on my first hand experience and the perspectives of others. The average rider (me included) makes a buying decision based on a range of perspectives and experiences (the point of these forums, by the way) and my reviews attempt to save the reader some time by working though a bunch of different views and my own rather than just adding one more individual opinion to those already out there. I recommend and describe what's behind my recommendations and use explicit criteria to provide a complete set of considerations on which to evaluate the field of products. Most reviews only mention a few criteria in passing, seldom compare one product to another, let alone take on a whole category and I'm only aware of Tour Intl. doing actual physical tests in a laboratory to quantitatively measure things like lateral deflection or braking distance.

Feel free to DM me if you want to discuss further. Apologies to the OP for going off topic. Cheers. Steve

ugo.santalucia

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

my reviews are based on my first hand experience and the perspectives of others.

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

I recommend and describe what's behind my recommendations and use explicit criteria to provide a complete set of considerations on which to evaluate the field of products.

:roll: :roll:

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

Feel free to DM me if you want to discuss further. Apologies to the OP for going off topic. Cheers. Steve

I think it's best to discuss this here... don't worry about the OP, he had his answers, we can digress...

So basically you provide a "summary" of the reviews left by others, to make life simple for those who seek reviews... how can you avoid being arbitrary? For instance 35 reviews praise wheels A for the braking and only 15 praise wheels B for the braking... does it make wheels A better at braking or simply more popular?

letap73

thecycleclinic wrote:

My dodgy qnautative way is the same method used by those online calculators, if I posted the results of an online claculator though there is no way of knowing how the result was arrived at hense a while back I went throught the maths. The model is quite accurate actually if the imput data is correct and thats the trick with any model, which is were your comment of dosgy many come from, I woudl agree. A model has limits ashould be taken to seriously, but a general trend in the results do emerge.

Apologies - in the know cycling analysis is the dodgy quantitative analysis I was referring to - with his graphs etc. I thought your analysis was actually very good and that in the know cycling was effectively trying to make the same points albeit not in as clear fashion as you had.

letap73

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

southdownswolf wrote:

lawrences wrote:

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

Axis 1.0 wheels claimed weight is 1950 grams. Would focus first on getting your body weight down. Check out this chart to see relative benefits and costs in dropping weight from your body vs. bike vs. wheels for climbing purposes. http://intheknowcycling.files.wordpress ... weight.png

What the hell is that chart showing me?

I honestly think you live in your own world.

It shows me how dodgy it can be looking for advice on the internet :shock:

You guys make me chuckle. OP says he can't find out how much his wheels weigh; I tell him. OP asks whether a 1.5kg wheel will make a significant difference to how he feels after his 12 hour ride. I tell him to focus on lowering his body weight. I provide him link to chart quantifying how little benefit buying a lighter wheel or bike will bring him and at what cost.

Some respondents to OP suggests buying a lighter wheel, others suggest a lighter bike. Both will bring minimal benefits at great costs relative to shedding body weight (quantified in yes a chart from my article on climbing wheels; I would have gladly provided someone else's chart and saved myself the work if it was available). Another respondent basically says what I have - lose body weight and forget about lighter wheel or bike unless a few seconds count. We all like him and ignore what reads like something he's written after a long day of work or perhaps a few pints.

Others comment on the OPs 12 hour climbing quest. Another gets bored and lazy (especially for a scholar) and starts acting like a boorish football fan. Others join in. Good fun. Little value.

Everyone offers their own perspective on this forum; some are well researched or based on real experience and add real value to OPs question. Others are wrong or add only comic value. Buyer/reader beware. I'm amused.

Deet001 - Good luck with your day of climbing. Keep your focus on losing weight and improving your fitness.

As stated I don't feel particularly enamoured with the way some posters have responded to you. However, you have not helped yourself by the way you make some of your arguments.

All you needed to say was reducing wheel weight does not significantly reduce ride time and removing 400g-500g of mass can be prohibitively expensive. The same can be said of frame, group set and componentry mass reduction . Physical preparation for the event, losing weight , increased fitness and structured training is more likely to reduce ride time without incurring significant costs.

The graphical analysis you provided had no real explanation behind it - although you could work out what was implied, secondly cost benefit was expressed in dollars - very few posters on this site are American.

To be fair to you, I have also posted on this thread in a not particularly clear fashion and implied that one of cycle clinics posts was poorly argued when I actually meant the opposite .

intheknowcycling.com

Ugo - There's not much more I can say than I have above and referred you to for more detail to answer your questions. You can interpret it or judge it however you like.

Letap - You've provided a good summary of the answer most helpful to the OP. I provided a brief answer in mine - focus on losing body weight - and provided a link if the OP wished to look into it further. I failed to provide the link to the explanation of the chart which appears in my post on climbing and descending wheels. Maybe would have helped. Cost benefit was expressed in both $/lb and £/g or £/kg in the chart and explanation. Thank you for your feedback.

slowbike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

don't worry about the OP, he had his answers, we can digress...

I don't think he has though ... everyone has been banging on about weight of the wheels or weight of the rider and nobody has voiced an opinion on the quality of the hubs.

I would guess the Axis 1.0 wheelset is the bog standard wheelset that came with his Crux - weight is one thing, but the quality of the hub, how freely it spins, how it turns under load etc is another. IME, putting on just the next set of wheels up (FR7/RS10 - rider weight permitting) can make quite a difference to the feel of the bike.
Perhaps I should go out and do a quantitative test with some Alexrims S480's vs Fulcrum Racing 5's ... but I know I'd find the later easier to get up to and maintain speed ...