Astana Suspension

arran77
arran77 Posts: 9,260
edited October 2014 in Pro race
I don't fully get this.

From what I read it seems like Astana are the ones who have the ultimate choice to suspend themselves or is that just poor wording on the part of the various stories on this?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/02/astana-suspend-themselves-anti-doping

It seems a little odd to me that they can be a member of the MPCC and that it's not these guys who ultimately say get out to Astana.
"Arran, you are like the Tony Benn of smut. You have never diluted your depravity and always stand by your beliefs. You have my respect sir and your wife my pity" :lol:

seanoconn
«1

Comments

  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    My understanding was that MPCC is a voluntary code that some teams have signed up to. It doesn't have any legal clout. If they (the team) aren't in breach of UCI rules they can compete.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Ultimately the MPCC is a bit like a religion with its commandments. People can sign up, dervive a sense of moral superiority through their membership and try to live by those commandments. But if one day they feel like coverting their neigbour's ass, there's not much anyone can do to stop them because it's not actually against the law.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Beijing is one thing, will be interesting to see what happens when it's the Tour.
  • gpreeves
    gpreeves Posts: 454
    Inner Ring's explanation of the situation is pretty helpful:

    http://inrng.com/2014/10/astana-iglinskiy-brothers-suspension/
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Joelsim wrote:
    Beijing is one thing, will be interesting to see what happens when it's the Tour.
    You may have noticed that Valentin was instantly sacked by Astana, while Maxim has only been suspended pending the B sample. This is because Astana have to delay the self-suspension until after the weekend and the Tour of Almaty - Kazakhstan's biggest race.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    They adhere to the MPCC group... once the B sample (or a confession) will confirm both riders doped, then Astana can do one of those two things

    1) Suspend themselves from racing for a short period of time... kind of 8 days or so, in practice missing out on the first appointment of the 2015 calendar (fanfare) the all important Tour Down Under

    2) Race the Tour Down Under and get out of the MPCC group.

    I think Vino will go for plan A, as he is interested in his team looking clean... I don't think missing out on the TDU makes a big dent in the revenue to be honest... might actually be a relief for most riders!
    left the forum March 2023
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    RichN95 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Beijing is one thing, will be interesting to see what happens when it's the Tour.
    You may have noticed that Valentin was instantly sacked by Astana, while Maxim has only been suspended pending the B sample. This is because Astana have to delay the self-suspension until after the weekend and the Tour of Almaty - Kazakhstan's biggest race.

    That would have been great! Missing their home race.
  • arran77
    arran77 Posts: 9,260
    So basically it's a bit of a waste of time then, it makes a team look good being part of the MPCC but then the team can still behave how they like up to a point.

    Why don't the UCI step in more quickly, surely the MPCC guidelines must stand for something, even if it's only a prompt for an organisation that actually does have clout (like the UCI) to take action?
    "Arran, you are like the Tony Benn of smut. You have never diluted your depravity and always stand by your beliefs. You have my respect sir and your wife my pity" :lol:

    seanoconn
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    arran77 wrote:
    So basically it's a bit of a waste of time then, it makes a team look good being part of the MPCC but then the team can still behave how they like up to a point.

    Why don't the UCI step in more quickly, surely the MPCC guidelines must stand for something, even if it's only a prompt for an organisation that actually does have clout (like the UCI) to take action?

    Basically yes, it is a waste of time... the UCI has a set of rules and the MPCC aim to make them stricter, by imposing a frankly ludicrous and voluntary code of conduct... if Maxim Iglinsky had been caught just before the Tour, it would be a different matter altogether... as missing out on the Tour would not be worth the membership

    It's all bollox, really...
    left the forum March 2023
  • mm1
    mm1 Posts: 1,063
    UCI rules comply with the WADA code, which is what Cookson has been saying all the time through this. Important to do so to mitigate the risks of any unpleasantness involving lawyers.
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,436
    IMHO the MPCC are worse than useless; they just muddy the waters (e.g. the whole cortisol thing) without actually doing anything to reduce doping.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    SO, it looks like Max Iglinsky will confess on monday, to allow Astana to race in Lombardia and Tour of Almaty... of course he will say the team knew nothing etc. etc... then he will be disqualified and the team will miss out on the all important Tour of Beijing and some other pointless race.

    Astana had a brilliant season with Nibali and Aru winning big in the mountains and of course a lot of folks will now wonder if these wins have anything to do with the Iglinsky brothers by chance... especially considering it's in the mountains that EPO helps the most...
    We can only hope in the end it was only the two of them and the rest of the team is (relatively) clean, but I now can't help but wonder how well the Italian climbers have done since joining Vino...

    Sad, I know... :?
    left the forum March 2023
  • arran77
    arran77 Posts: 9,260
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    SO, it looks like Max Iglinsky will confess on monday, to allow Astana to race in Lombardia and Tour of Almaty... of course he will say the team knew nothing etc. etc... then he will be disqualified and the team will miss out on the all important Tour of Beijing and some other pointless race.

    Astana had a brilliant season with Nibali and Aru winning big in the mountains and of course a lot of folks will now wonder if these wins have anything to do with the Iglinsky brothers by chance... especially considering it's in the mountains that EPO helps the most...
    We can only hope in the end it was only the two of them and the rest of the team is (relatively) clean, but I now can't help but wonder how well the Italian climbers have done since joining Vino...

    Sad, I know... :?

    All just a pointless load of crap really.

    Like you say, it's does make you wonder just how clean the rest of the team were, leaves a bit of shadow over all of the, really.
    "Arran, you are like the Tony Benn of smut. You have never diluted your depravity and always stand by your beliefs. You have my respect sir and your wife my pity" :lol:

    seanoconn
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Nibs performances in the Tour were head and shoulders above anyone else. Rather like his Giro win last year. All smells a bit fishy to me.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    We'll see, I think these days you can get away for a while, but eventually if you dope regularly they will get you... it's just a matter of time.
    All TdF tests came out negative apparently, which is good news
    left the forum March 2023
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Joelsim wrote:
    Nibs performances in the Tour were head and shoulders above anyone else. Rather like his Giro win last year. All smells a bit fishy to me.

    Who are the best GT riders

    Contador
    Froome
    Nibali
    Quintana

    3 of those weren't at the Tour, and Nibali was better than the rest. Isn't that exactly what you'd expect, all things being equal?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    We'll see, I think these days you can get away for a while, but eventually if you dope regularly they will get you... it's just a matter of time.
    All TdF tests came out negative apparently, which is good news

    True, but Maxim was negative then too.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,312
    Joelsim wrote:

    True, but Maxim was negative then too.

    Clearly... (was he at the Tour?) the traces as well as the effect don't stay in the system for long... I would assume these days riders no longer use massive doses all year round, but a more targeted approach to doping, minimising the risks (and the effect)
    left the forum March 2023
  • type:epyt
    type:epyt Posts: 766
    iainf72 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Nibs performances in the Tour were head and shoulders above anyone else. Rather like his Giro win last year. All smells a bit fishy to me.

    Who are the best GT riders

    Contador
    Froome
    Nibali
    Quintana

    3 of those weren't at the Tour, and Nibali was better than the rest. Isn't that exactly what you'd expect, all things being equal?

    Stop confusing people with common sense. A rider with 7 GT podiums couldn't possibly win clean. Unless they were Sastre?
    Life is unfair, kill yourself or get over it.
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    type:epyt wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Nibs performances in the Tour were head and shoulders above anyone else. Rather like his Giro win last year. All smells a bit fishy to me.

    Who are the best GT riders

    Contador
    Froome
    Nibali
    Quintana

    3 of those weren't at the Tour, and Nibali was better than the rest. Isn't that exactly what you'd expect, all things being equal?

    Stop confusing people with common sense. A rider with 7 GT podiums couldn't possibly win clean. Unless they were Sastre?


    Not trolling, genuine question: Why does eveyone assume Sastre was clean? After all he rode for Riis when he was helping to goof up Hamilton and Basso?

    Just curious as to why there is a forum consensus that he did not dope
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • Coach H
    Coach H Posts: 1,092
    ....and now no B sample is being requested so NOW Astana suspend themselves (as predicted)
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana- ... y-positive
    Coach H. (Dont ask me for training advice - 'It's not about the bike')
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    Coach H wrote:
    ....and now no B sample is being requested so NOW Astana suspend themselves (as predicted)
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana- ... y-positive

    Right on cue.
    Everybody knew this would be coming, but they didn't even let the dust settle on Lombardy and Almaty.
    It's supposed to be the testers taking the p*ss, not the teams.

    No place for Vino in the modern game, if it wishes to have a cat in hell's chance of being described as "clean".
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • jscl
    jscl Posts: 1,015
    Don't shoot me down here, but I suspect this is more tied down to the persons than the team itself, as hard as that may be to believe.

    This is why a strong internal monitoring system should be held in EVERY team. Do the suspensions and investigations yourself rather than the authorities instigating.
    Follow me on Twitter - http://twitter.com/scalesjason - All posts are strictly my personal view.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    JSCL wrote:
    Don't shoot me down here, but I suspect this is more tied down to the persons than the team itself, as hard as that may be to believe.

    This is why a strong internal monitoring system should be held in EVERY team. Do the suspensions and investigations yourself rather than the authorities instigating.

    You rather assume that the team didn't know anything about it .... which may or may not be the case - but would you trust them?
  • type:epyt
    type:epyt Posts: 766
    Timoid. wrote:
    type:epyt wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Nibs performances in the Tour were head and shoulders above anyone else. Rather like his Giro win last year. All smells a bit fishy to me.

    Who are the best GT riders

    Contador
    Froome
    Nibali
    Quintana

    3 of those weren't at the Tour, and Nibali was better than the rest. Isn't that exactly what you'd expect, all things being equal?

    Stop confusing people with common sense. A rider with 7 GT podiums couldn't possibly win clean. Unless they were Sastre?


    Not trolling, genuine question: Why does eveyone assume Sastre was clean? After all he rode for Riis when he was helping to goof up Hamilton and Basso?

    Just curious as to why there is a forum consensus that he did not dope

    I was raising the Sastre conundrum.
    Life is unfair, kill yourself or get over it.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    On a side issue, Astana's withdrawal could finish the job started by Pat's Beijing failed venture and kill off the great, but much messed about Giro dell 'Emilia, after 97 editions.
    Which, in turn, will kill off the rising Gran Premio Bruno Beghelli. :(
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • danlikesbikes
    danlikesbikes Posts: 3,898
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Coach H wrote:
    ....and now no B sample is being requested so NOW Astana suspend themselves (as predicted)
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana- ... y-positive

    Right on cue.
    Everybody knew this would be coming, but they didn't even let the dust settle on Lombardy and Almaty.
    It's supposed to be the testers taking the p*ss, not the teams.

    No place for Vino in the modern game, if it wishes to have a cat in hell's chance of being described as "clean".

    Agree about Vino, he gave an interview earlier this year moaning about other Pro tour teams not even being members but Astana were and how poor it was and could these other teams be trusted to be clean if they were not members. Sounded proper wrong then & still feels wrong today.

    *above is my opinion only and not scientific in any way LOL
    Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Hopefully this will spell the end for MPCC.

    As for that cockroach of a team that is Astana....
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,651
    I'm sure the MPCC have some reasonable policies, but it's too easy to manipulate the self-imposed sanctions. Membership doesn't show any real commitment to clean cycling, just a commitment to clean cycling PR. Any team can be the victim of a lone doper - but what are teams really doing to prevent this?

    I've suggested before that the UCI should have a program of policies for teams to implement that are worth UCI points - and can be audited. Proper processes, documented.

    viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12880227

    It degenerated fairly quickly to a discussion of UCI points and collective punishment...
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    With a bit of luck Nibs and Aru will be tested and tested again next year along with all the other Astana riders. The only way it's going to be eradicated is a 3 strikes within any 3 year period and you are out as a team for 1 season. That would make them think a bit about being more proactive with their own riders, plus give a little leeway in case of isolated doping incidents.

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