Fuel and food for 100 mile hill ride

MancMissile

Hi Guys,

I'm doing the Wiggle Peak District Punisher sportive this weekend, as the name suggests its a killer!

100 miles and 9'700ft of elevation :shock:

I managed 78 miles yesterday but find myself "hitting the wall" at about 50 and dragging my ass round the rest of the way.

Just after some suggestions of what sort of food, gells drinks etc to take on the ride and how often I should be eating?

Thanks

slowbike

More of what you like ... slow release carbs and some "bugger there's a hill" energy boosts.

Personally I like flapjacks and dextrose tablets - but 100 miles hits the "give me something savoury" mark.

apreading

If its like the Wiggle ride I did, they will supply more than enough of everything you need at the feed stations. Grab a few extra bits and stuff them in your pockets for emergencies.

If you dont use gels etc for your normal riding, then dont suddenly start bashing them on a long ride - they might not agree with you.

You dont say what you did when you struggled, often the problem is leaving it too late for food/drink, rather that the wrong type - if you wait until you are hungry or thirsty it is too late, your body needs it immediately and doesnt want to wait for you to eat and digest it. Little and often...

Lots of different strategies, carb load for a few days before, make sure you are properly hydrated, porridge or slow release carbs on the morning, bananas and flapjacks/fig rolls on the way and jelly babies or gels for quick sugar. Without time to try in advance, I would suggest stick to as much 'normal' food as possible.

meanredspider

apreading wrote:

If its like the Wiggle ride I did, they will supply more than enough of everything you need at the feed stations. Grab a few extra bits and stuff them in your pockets for emergencies.

If you dont use gels etc for your normal riding, then dont suddenly start bashing them on a long ride - they might not agree with you.

You dont say what you did when you struggled, often the problem is leaving it too late for food/drink, rather that the wrong type - if you wait until you are hungry or thirsty it is too late, your body needs it immediately and doesnt want to wait for you to eat and digest it. Little and often...

Lots of different strategies, carb load for a few days before, make sure you are properly hydrated, porridge or slow release carbs on the morning, bananas and flapjacks/fig rolls on the way and jelly babies or gels for quick sugar. Without time to try in advance, I would suggest stick to as much 'normal' food as possible.

+1 - nothing much to add. On the plus side, it won't be hot - I struggle to eat enough in the heat whereas I find it much easier when it's cool. If it makes you feel any better, I did 100 miles and 6500 metres of elevation earlier this year with temps from zero to 33C. Follow the advice above.

MancMissile

Cheers guys will keep that in mind, I do take a few gels out with me normally but you're right I take them when I need them not before. I think I'll try taking a gel every 30 miles or something and keep a banana / flapjacks handy as well. Like the idea of Jelly Babies for a quick sugar hit.

Yea weather looks about 16c which is ideal...

Cheers for the advice

diy

I'd stick to real food rather than gel, depending on your tolerance to caffeine. As long as you eat little and often. Or train yourself to run on empty for long periods with a fasting regime. Hydration and salts replacement is more important, unless you are at the bottom end of your ideal BMI weight.

MancMissile

diy wrote:

I'd stick to real food rather than gel, depending on your tolerance to caffeine. As long as you eat little and often. Or train yourself to run on empty for long periods with a fasting regime. Hydration and salts replacement is more important, unless you are at the bottom end of your ideal BMI weight.

What would you recommend to replace the salts?

I'm more of a muscular build, sub 10% body fat.. around 84kg at the moment.

apreading

diy wrote:

I'd stick to real food rather than gel, depending on your tolerance to caffeine.

Not all gels have caffeine in them - I dont use the caffeine ones personally as they taste rank anyway...

For salts, the 'easiest' was it to get a tube of nuun or High5 Zero tablets - pop one in your drink bottle and hey presto. Alternatively, the energy drink that Wiggle use at their feed stations will likely have electrolytes in it, plus they might have things like pretzels etc that are salty to eat.

for the future, I would highly recommend the High5 4:1 carb powder - has everything you need (sugars, protein and electrolytes) and by taking it with your drink, you will automatically have little and often rather than the big rush of a gel followed by a dip till the next one. Its not the cheapest way but I use the pre-measured sachets like http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/high ... lsrc=aw.ds which make it really easy - and the Summer Fruits one is really nice.

It would be a risk to introduce something new like the carb drinks at this stage before an event though - how big a risk is up to you, as they can upset delicate stomachs.

MancMissile

Awesome thanks, I've already got a box of the 4:1 carb drinks Been using them for the past few weeks so will stick with them thanks.

napoleond

Can't believe how much people spend on this stuff!
For my drinks I make it with fruit squash or diluted fruit juice and a dash of electrolyte powder from myprotein. Works out at about 4-5p a bottle. I do tend to take emergency gels with me but more often than not they come home with me.
Food wise I try and take food knocking about the house.

The skratch labs Feed Zone Portables book has some excellent home made recipes.

cougie

Set a timer on your watch or bike computer - to beep every 20 mins or so.
Make sure you're taking a bit of drink or something to eat every time - or whenever convenient - don't try eating on a dodgy downhill for example.

A bento box on the top tube is a good idea - you can stack it up with flapjack/gingerbread/whatever and its easy to see and monitor what you're eating.

diy

Zero cal high5 tabs are not great for taking on an actual event, they are better for training when you are on a low cal diet and need to avoid cramps. They don't actually fuel you. But I totally agree with the home made approach. Lemons, limes, cranberry, coconut milk, ginger are all good for home made stuff and chili spices are a good alternative to caffeine. But you can also buy the raw ingredients for sports drinks from places like http://www.myprotein.co.uk

But a basic isotonic drink can be made with squash, salt and if possible a high vitamin juice.

Since few of us will be pro-racers, we should have enough fat stores to get us through a day long hard ride. Its only the elite athletes who really need to fuel carefully as they go. For everyone else we can train on empty to get the body used to running in the fat-burn phase. The key is not to over eat as this will slow you down.

A little nibble (half a flapjack) every hour and some sugar, salt, juice in your drink will do most of us.

apreading

diy wrote:

Zero cal high5 tabs are not great for taking on an actual event, they are better for training when you are on a low cal diet and need to avoid cramps. They don't actually fuel you. But I totally agree with the home made approach. Lemons, limes, cranberry, coconut milk, ginger are all good for home made stuff and chili spices are a good alternative to caffeine. But you can also buy the raw ingredients for sports drinks from places like http://www.myprotein.co.uk

Hats off to you, if you can be bothered with this - I would rather spend a few pennies more and let someone do the hard work for me.

diy wrote:

But a basic isotonic drink can be made with squash, salt and if possible a high vitamin juice.

zero tablets are convenient for refills when out on the ride though.

diy wrote:

Since few of us will be pro-racers, we should have enough fat stores to get us through a day long hard ride. Its only the elite athletes who really need to fuel carefully as they go. For everyone else we can train on empty to get the body used to running in the fat-burn phase. The key is not to over eat as this will slow you down.

Thing is, your first 100 mile event is not training and not the time to be getting the body used to anything new. For this event the OP needs to accept the body he has and if fat burning is not enough for him to get through the event feeling fine then he needs to find a way to help it along.

diy wrote:

A little nibble (half a flapjack) every hour and some sugar, salt, juice in your drink will do most of us.

Dont disagree with the statement, but this doesnt mean there is anything wrong with the carb powder or zero tabs - they just give the sugar, salt, juice in your drink in a convenient way.

phreak

If you set out on your ride with a decent breakfast behind you then I can't imagine a lack of food will cause you to hit the wall at 50 miles. Have you looked into your pacing? Could you go a bit slower to begin with and sustain that pace the whole way?

MancMissile

phreak wrote:

If you set out on your ride with a decent breakfast behind you then I can't imagine a lack of food will cause you to hit the wall at 50 miles. Have you looked into your pacing? Could you go a bit slower to begin with and sustain that pace the whole way?

Yea thats a point I do tend to go pretty hard... I managed 78 miles on Sunday but the last 20-30 miles I was in a bad way.

meanredspider

diy wrote:

Since few of us will be pro-racers, we should have enough fat stores to get us through a day long hard ride. Its only the elite athletes who really need to fuel carefully as they go. For everyone else we can train on empty to get the body used to running in the fat-burn phase. The key is not to over eat as this will slow you down.

A little nibble (half a flapjack) every hour and some sugar, salt, juice in your drink will do most of us.

I disagree with this. Your body can't function on fat on its own. It needs glycogen in order to burn fat - that's exactly what bonkng is: running out of glycogen. Additionally, you can train your body to burn fat but it can only burn it at a relatively slow rate - you may be able to support a long slow day in the saddle with smaller intakes of carbs but not a long hard day. A "little nibble" isn't going to be enough. Sure, you don't want to over eat but, in my experience, this is quite hard to do if you're working hard - you tend not to feel like eating. I suspect far more rides failed due to lack of food than from eating too much.

KnightOfTheLongTights

diy wrote:

I'd stick to real food rather than gel,

Yeah - or at least the healthier end of energy bars, e.g., Mule or Clif.
For really long rides in winter I eat a good helping of porridge and banana with full-fat milk before leaving.
For the pockets: two or three helpings of real food wrapped in foil or cling film, like flapjack, malt-loaf-with-butter, some sort of fruit bun, fruit cake etc - plus a gel or two for emergencies.
I don't force myself to eat lots depending on how hard I'm going - a few bites every hour or so seems to do the trick for a steady ride.

Grill

diy wrote:

I'd stick to real food rather than gel

Nothing wrong with gels. I did my last 12hr TT on 11 gels and was fine. For a ride like the one the OP is doing, I'd take 4-5 gels and maybe a bar or two.

KnightOfTheLongTights

Grill wrote:

diy wrote:

I'd stick to real food rather than gel

Nothing wrong with gels. I did my last 12hr TT on 11 gels and was fine. For a ride like the one the OP is doing, I'd take 4-5 gels and maybe a bar or two.

why on earth eat gels when you don't have to though? They aren't exactly enjoyable.
If I was doing a TT I might eat gels too - cos they are a quick, convenient, light, easily digested way of taking on pure carb.
But he's not. He's doing a sportive that is basically supposed to be an enjoyable few hours on a bike.
You might as well say 'why eat normal food at all - just eat gels all the time'.

kingstonian

Be warned with the a jelly Babies - for me at least they give me horrendous farts if I eat them when out on a ride. Not so much a problem for me but not overly comfortable, nor are they pleasant for anyone on my back wheel.....

olake92

Be careful where you step - Owen's about to drop some knowledge!

First, you may benefit from carbohydrate loading the days leading up to the Sportive - a moderate carb intake of 5-7g/kg body weight/day for 3 days then a high intake of 8-10g/kg/day. Personally, I just do two days of high carb intake and 'eat enough' the rest of the time as it's easier to think about!

On the day - aim to eat 200g of carbs in the 4 hours before the event itself. For me, this is 150g (uncooked) of pasta with tomato sauce (~130g carbs) 4-3hrs before. A banana at T- 90-60mins (30g carbs) and a bar or gel at the start (30g ish). I eat a little less as that's what my stomach can handle. Make sure you're well hydrated beforehand, for me that's 750ml in the 3hrs before, but it varies depending on your starting point.

During the event - you can take in 30-60g of carbs/hour in solids (gels or bars) and an additional 30g/hour in a carbohydrate drink. Eat and drink to a schedule, not on feel. Aim to drink 500-750ml of fluids per hour if you can, but if a lack of availability demands it, you should be able to manage on half of this.

Of course, you can replace bars and gels with 'normal' foods and a carb drink can be made using squash or juice. The important thing is the carbohydrate intake. I would definitely recommend a caffeine hit an hour or two before the end - it makes a world of difference.

This will seem excessive, but ask yourself - would you rather go on random anecdotes and bonk and have a crap time, or go with science and not bonk and have fun? :P For sure, you could 'survive' the ride on less, but you want it to go smoothly and without hiccups!

meanredspider

I'd question the gel or bar at the start. On the start of any exercise effort, your liver dumps some glycogen into your blood (presumably in some evolutionary fight or flight type or hunting response). Adding a gel or bar to that will give you quite a sugar hit. Have you tried doing blood glucose measurements before and during a ride? I did for a week (when I worked for LifeScan - a manufacturer of blood glucose meters) - it's quite surprising how your blood sugar level goes up naturally. Personally, I'd wait a bit. But I'd be happy to learn if there's a good reason to do it.

ETA - blood glucose meters (esp own brand like Boots) are pretty cheap. If you really want to optimise your food intake, buy one and use it on some training rides to see what your blood sugar levels are doing. The only catch is that involves lancing your fingers to draw blood (make sure the draw site is clean) to test.

Grill

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

Grill wrote:

diy wrote:

I'd stick to real food rather than gel

Nothing wrong with gels. I did my last 12hr TT on 11 gels and was fine. For a ride like the one the OP is doing, I'd take 4-5 gels and maybe a bar or two.

why on earth eat gels when you don't have to though? They aren't exactly enjoyable.
If I was doing a TT I might eat gels too - cos they are a quick, convenient, light, easily digested way of taking on pure carb.
But he's not. He's doing a sportive that is basically supposed to be an enjoyable few hours on a bike.
You might as well say 'why eat normal food at all - just eat gels all the time'.

If anyone wants to eat 'normal' food then that's fine. I use them for all the reasons you mention. Doesn't make the ride any less enjoyable as I if I wanted a buffet, I'd go to one. I don't sportives anyways as I don't find them remotely enjoyable, but if the OP wants his money's worth then he should just bring a rucksack and fill it at the feed stops.

apreading

Grill wrote:

bring a rucksack and fill it at the feed stops.

Now that's a good idea!!!

MancMissile

apreading wrote:

Grill wrote:

bring a rucksack and fill it at the feed stops.

Now that's a good idea!!!

Always do on the sportives get my moneys worth!

diy

@apreading - you misunderstood me, I am specifically say Zero Cal tabs are no good for the actual event. The other stuff is fine.

olake92

meanredspider wrote:

I'd question the gel or bar at the start... I'd be happy to learn if there's a good reason to do it.

To be honest, I usually just start eating my first bar just before a race, so that I'm already on the way in terms of fuelling. If it's an important race - let's say a prem - I'll start with a caffeine gel as I know being more alert will help, as will the boost from the caffeine, in the first hour where racing is often very hard. It also means I have to worry a little less about eating in that hour when it might be the last thing on my mind.

meanredspider wrote:

ETA - blood glucose meters (esp own brand like Boots) are pretty cheap. If you really want to optimise your food intake, buy one and use it on some training rides to see what your blood sugar levels are doing. The only catch is that involves lancing your fingers to draw blood (make sure the draw site is clean) to test.

This could be a really interesting thing to do! I guess then you can tailor your intake to maintain steady blood sugar levels and see when you suffer with low energy? It might be worth me doing it at some point.

Grill

Blood glucose meters? Really? I don't know anyone who races that would use one, much less for a sportive. If you can't figure out when you need to eat and drink fro experience, then you probably shouldn't be doing any serious physical activity.

legendary27

meanredspider wrote:

I disagree with this. Your body can't function on fat on its own. It needs glycogen in order to burn fat - that's exactly what bonkng is: running out of glycogen.

I am confused by the first part of this statement. I thought that ketosis occurred once you had exhausted your glycogen stores. Is this not the case ?

Regards,
Gordon

dwanes

olake92 wrote:

Be careful where you step - Owen's about to drop some knowledge!

First, you may benefit from carbohydrate loading the days leading up to the Sportive - a moderate carb intake of 5-7g/kg body weight/day for 3 days then a high intake of 8-10g/kg/day. Personally, I just do two days of high carb intake and 'eat enough' the rest of the time as it's easier to think about!

On the day - aim to eat 200g of carbs in the 4 hours before the event itself. For me, this is 150g (uncooked) of pasta with tomato sauce (~130g carbs) 4-3hrs before. A banana at T- 90-60mins (30g carbs) and a bar or gel at the start (30g ish). I eat a little less as that's what my stomach can handle. Make sure you're well hydrated beforehand, for me that's 750ml in the 3hrs before, but it varies depending on your starting point.

During the event - you can take in 30-60g of carbs/hour in solids (gels or bars) and an additional 30g/hour in a carbohydrate drink. Eat and drink to a schedule, not on feel. Aim to drink 500-750ml of fluids per hour if you can, but if a lack of availability demands it, you should be able to manage on half of this.

Of course, you can replace bars and gels with 'normal' foods and a carb drink can be made using squash or juice. The important thing is the carbohydrate intake. I would definitely recommend a caffeine hit an hour or two before the end - it makes a world of difference.

This will seem excessive, but ask yourself - would you rather go on random anecdotes and bonk and have a crap time, or go with science and not bonk and have fun? :P For sure, you could 'survive' the ride on less, but you want it to go smoothly and without hiccups!

Wow, I think if I took my food intake this seriously I would need to go on another ride afterwards to burn off all that excess food. On a Sunday morning I do a Hilly 60 miles at a highish intensity on a bowl of Cornflakes and 550ml of water. Yes I am pretty hungry, and eat well after, but at least I feel like ive done a workout!

Grill

I never carb load. No problems on single, double, triple and quadruple centuries or long TT's such as the 12hr.