CX wheel recommendations for disc brakes

il sole

Hi,
I'm currently speccing up a Boardman CX9.8 frame to give me a really nice first CX bike and all weather commuter and trail ride. I am however, having problems finding the right wheelset which will take disc brakes. Can anyone recommend some decent hoops around the £200-300 price bracket??
cheers

apreading

Kinesis Crosslight

or

Handbuilt Novatec hubs with Archetype rims

ugo.santalucia

Kinesis make a set called Crosslight... however, you can have something very similar built on virtually the same hubs but with better quality spokes for very similar money if you talk to a local builder. The Kinesis use Pillar triple butted spokes and in my experience (and not only mine) Pillar spokes tend to last a fraction of the mileage of other makes like DT Swiss, Sapim or even the cheaper Alpina.
I spoke to Harry Rowland about it, as he had the same issue... in theory Pillar spokes should be good, if you look at the steel they use and manufacturing processes, in practice they are kind of very average.

Blurbing and digressing here though... :P

Otherwise Mavic should come out with their Aksium and Ksyrium disc wheels pretty soon, as well as other manufacturers will... it's a market that is about to explode... question of a few months I reckon

timnoyce

The rims seem to be the sticking point at the moment. Most rims either seem to be narrow road rims with a braking surface, or wide mtb style rims.

I'm in the same boat that I am thinking about going from a road bike to building up a 'cross style' bike but am in a quandry as to which rims to build. (I'll give it a go myself, having succesfully built some wheels for the road bike earlier in the year).

Does anyone have any thoughts about which rims would be suitable. The Mavic TN319 seems popular as does the Archetype, but is there anything I am missing? I probably want to run a 28mm slick in the short term for commuting with the option to go for something more angry for offroad if I do away with the hard tail.

ugo.santalucia

timnoyce wrote:

The rims seem to be the sticking point at the moment. Most rims either seem to be narrow road rims with a braking surface, or wide mtb style rims.

I'm in the same boat that I am thinking about going from a road bike to building up a 'cross style' bike but am in a quandry as to which rims to build. (I'll give it a go myself, having succesfully built some wheels for the road bike earlier in the year).

Does anyone have any thoughts about which rims would be suitable. The Mavic TN319 seems popular as does the Archetype, but is there anything I am missing? I probably want to run a 28mm slick in the short term for commuting with the option to go for something more angry for offroad if I do away with the hard tail.

If you can afford them, Brick Lane Bikes have just taken delivery of the first load of Velocity Aileron rims... disc specific, 25 mm wide, 28 mm deep, 480 grams, tubeless ready, it seems the best rim around... have not seen the price yet, but I guess it will be 85 a pop or so...

EDIT: pretty close, 86 quid a pop

http://www.bricklanebikes.co.uk/velocit ... 700c-black

ugo.santalucia

And here they are... Aksium disc, very competitively priced, but very heavy, kind of entry level

http://www.mavic.co.uk/wheels-road-tria ... AbfFWPLJlw

They've also come out with the Ksyrium, but I don't see these being popular... at nearly a grand for a pair of alloy wheels, they just seem stupidly expensive...

http://www.mavic.co.uk/wheels-road-tria ... AbffGPLJlw

I think they have missed the trick... something in between the two would have been a lot more popular

timnoyce

£86 for an ally rim. Screw that for a laugh. Makes the H-Son Archtype look a bargain at £50.

My previous build used a Rigida Flyer rim for £16.99 and they have been flawless so far.

apreading

ugo.santalucia wrote:

And here they are... Aksium disc, very competitively priced, but very heavy, kind of entry level

http://www.mavic.co.uk/wheels-road-tria ... AbfFWPLJlw

They've also come out with the Ksyrium, but I don't see these being popular... at nearly a grand for a pair of alloy wheels, they just seem stupidly expensive...

http://www.mavic.co.uk/wheels-road-tria ... AbffGPLJlw

I think they have missed the trick... something in between the two would have been a lot more popular

Wow - Aksiums are heavy and only a 24h spoke count. They say straight pull spokes are stonger than J bend - is that true?

And the Ksyrium dont seem anything special for the money, plus they also drop the spoke count to 20h.

Crosslight come out at Ksyrium weight with 28 spokes and for ALOT less money...

the Ailerons look nice, but are they any better than Archetypes???

drlodge

For a "fast" CX bike on roads and some trails, I would have thought the Archetype is plenty wide enough, what width tyres are you thinking of using? Ugo built me Archetypes on XT hubs (on hindsight would have used the novatecs he recommended) and I'm very happy with them. Tyres are Vittoria Randonneur Pro 32c but GP4S or similar at 25c would be great for road use.

ugo.santalucia

apreading wrote:

Wow - Aksiums are heavy and only a 24h spoke count. They say straight pull spokes are stonger than J bend - is that true?

It's a myth... J bend spokes fatigue and break at the J.... straigh pull spokes fatigue and break just as well... if they were stronger you wouldn't have people reporting broken straight spokes on a daily basis, would you?

apreading wrote:

the Ailerons look nice, but are they any better than Archetypes???

Don't know, they are different, wider and tubeless ready. if you want to run inner tubes I suppose you are better off sticking to the Archetype, if you want to go tubeless as you should, then best to get a tubeless ready rim. Of course if you believe in aerodynamics, there are also 3 full millimeters of extra profile... :shock:

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

apreading wrote:

Wow - Aksiums are heavy and only a 24h spoke count. They say straight pull spokes are stonger than J bend - is that true?

It's a myth... J bend spokes fatigue and break at the J.... straigh pull spokes fatigue and break just as well... if they were stronger you wouldn't have people reporting broken straight spokes on a daily basis, would you?

I once owned a pair of Aksiums, and basically ripped the rear wheel to pieces. Started off breaking spokes (quite hard to obtain replacements) and then the rim started developing cracks; this was over the course of a few months, probably 2000 miles max. Even before it started falling apart, I could feel it flexing. The replacements, built with Open Pro rims and J bend spokes, lasted until the brake tracks wore out. In fact, the hubs and spokes are now on their third set of rims and still going strong...

il sole

drlodge wrote:

For a "fast" CX bike on roads and some trails, I would have thought the Archetype is plenty wide enough, what width tyres are you thinking of using? Ugo built me Archetypes on XT hubs (on hindsight would have used the novatecs he recommended) and I'm very happy with them. Tyres are Vittoria Randonneur Pro 32c but GP4S or similar at 25c would be great for road use.

I will probably run 28mm road tyres and 32-5mm crossers for the weekend!

il sole

apreading wrote:

Kinesis Crosslight

or

Handbuilt Novatec hubs with Archetype rims

ideally i'd like the crosslights, but they're out of stock everywhere! bike radar gave them 4.5 stars...

ugo.santalucia

il sole wrote:

ideally i'd like the crosslights, but they're out of stock everywhere! bike radar gave them 4.5 stars...

Glad you don't give a toss about my digression on spokes... Bike Radar knows better...

tgotb

OT, but are reviews on commercial websites or in magazines actually any value at all? There's a huge conflict of interest as the publisher has advertisers to appease, and I'm not sure I've ever seen a critical product review on one of these sites. Additionally, the reviews often seem to be written by people with limited subject matter expertise anyway; I recall one review of a CX bike which described it as having canti brakes "for increased stopping power" :shock:

The only online reviewer I'd trust is DCRainmaker, and he's very open and transparent about how he funds and conducts his reviews.

timnoyce

I agree. Also, realistically how much can you tell from these reviews in the short time given to the reviewer. The wheel would have to be pretty shocking for it to fall apart in a few days / hours, and it is not like they review the wheels using the same bike / tyre combination to really make a good comparison. It's mostly marketing BS which is linked to a build weight which either falls into the category of 'nippy mountain goat' or 'slow, like riding with the brakes on'... which can vary by as much as 50g difference. Brilliant.

veronese68

As well as the ease of replacing spokes the other advantage of handbuilts being it's a lot easier to replace a rim like for like if, for example, some tool drives into your back wheel on a roundabout.
I'm very pleased with my handbuilt wheels and the ease of having bits replaced after the aforementioned incident.

il sole

ugo.santalucia wrote:

il sole wrote:

ideally i'd like the crosslights, but they're out of stock everywhere! bike radar gave them 4.5 stars...

Glad you don't give a toss about my digression on spokes... Bike Radar knows better...

Sorry! I replied quickly without fully reading your post. I don't know of any wheel builders personally, so can't just go up to one and ask them!

il sole

TGOTB wrote:

OT, but are reviews on commercial websites or in magazines actually any value at all? There's a huge conflict of interest as the publisher has advertisers to appease, and I'm not sure I've ever seen a critical product review on one of these sites. Additionally, the reviews often seem to be written by people with limited subject matter expertise anyway; I recall one review of a CX bike which described it as having canti brakes "for increased stopping power" :shock:

The only online reviewer I'd trust is DCRainmaker, and he's very open and transparent about how he funds and conducts his reviews.

I know, and I appreciate that. but i don't have the time to go out and do loads of research, so if a mag has a review which appeals, i'll more often than not go for that...

ugo.santalucia

il sole wrote:

I know, and I appreciate that. but i don't have the time to go out and do loads of research, so if a mag has a review which appeals, i'll more often than not go for that...

The review you mention is it not the one on Road.cc? That is the 2012 model, which is different from the current model... the current is significantly lighter, which might sound appealing, but it comes with disadvantages, obviously and although they will say it's not only lighter, but also stiffer and stronger, I tend not to believe that.

apreading

There are alot of happy Crosslight customers backing up the reviews on t'interweb though, and I havent seen anyone saying they had problems with them.

I picked up a pair for £200 amonth or so ago to use as a winter wheelset, so that I can keep my handbuilts (AC hubs + Archetype rims) from getting trashed and because the freehub is knackered on the wheels that came with the bike, so figured I needed a spare wheelset anyway. Havent ridden them yet.

Are you saying that if I break a single spoke it cannot be replaced with a different type of spoke? Surely any J bend spoke would work as long as I am not precious about matching? If the spokes were really a problem then could you just relace with different spokes and use the hub/rim?

I realise that if the rim needed replacing I would not be able to get the same type of rim but cant see why that would be a problem either.

At £300 I would probably agree that a handbuilt is a better option, but at the price I paid they seemed like a good bet.

ugo.santalucia

apreading wrote:

Are you saying that if I break a single spoke it cannot be replaced with a different type of spoke? Surely any J bend spoke would work as long as I am not precious about matching? If the spokes were really a problem then could you just relace with different spokes and use the hub/rim?

Sure you can... my comment was more in terms of what you get for your money... basically what reviews fail to tell you, beyond the usual blurb.

I think they are good wheels, they are not a massive deal though and they enjoy popularity mainly due to lack of alternatives. Seeing what mavic has to offer, I think they will keep being popular... :?

apreading

Yeah - as you say, I think this market will see some fierce competition soon, but the manufacturers are being a bit slow to get product out there...

il sole

apreading wrote:

Yeah - as you say, I think this market will see some fierce competition soon, but the manufacturers are being a bit slow to get product out there...

that doesn't help someone who has the cash burning a hole in his pocket right now does it??!!!

oldbazza

drlodge wrote:

For a "fast" CX bike on roads and some trails, I would have thought the Archetype is plenty wide enough, what width tyres are you thinking of using? Ugo built me Archetypes on XT hubs (on hindsight would have used the novatecs he recommended) and I'm very happy with them. Tyres are Vittoria Randonneur Pro 32c but GP4S or similar at 25c would be great for road use.

Just got a set like the above made up this week for my Planet X by these bods in Cambridge;


http://bicycleambulance.com/about/

Not ridden in anger yet but if nothing else they look luverly.

porlyworly

Bumping this thread to the top, having recently purchased a disc equipped CX I'm inevitably looking at upgrading the wheelset.

Seems to be very little out there, unless I'm looking in the wrong places? Handbuilt the way forward?

tgotb

What sort of tyres do you want to use? Clinchers with tubes, tubeless clinchers or tubs? Racing or general offroad riding?

I built all my own, mostly to keep costs/weight down simultaneously, but there are a few off-the-shelf options out there, depending on what you want...

porlyworly

Clinchers with tubes, mostly for road riding (commuting) in the wet so just normal road tyres.

Plan is to put some studded tyres on the stock wheels for when the ice & snow decend, save having to mess about with swapping tyres (just swap wheels)

ugo.santalucia

PorlyWorly wrote:

Clinchers with tubes, mostly for road riding (commuting) in the wet so just normal road tyres.

Plan is to put some studded tyres on the stock wheels for when the ice & snow decend, save having to mess about with swapping tyres (just swap wheels)

There is a new disc specific rim which can be run tubed or tubeless and is competitive with carbon offers... Velocity Aileron is 25 mm wide, 28 mm deep and weighs 460 grams... 86 quid a pop is not cheap, but as before, I think it has to be compared with carbon alternative rather than alloy and in that respect it comes cheaper

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

PorlyWorly wrote:

Clinchers with tubes, mostly for road riding (commuting) in the wet so just normal road tyres.

Plan is to put some studded tyres on the stock wheels for when the ice & snow decend, save having to mess about with swapping tyres (just swap wheels)

There is a new disc specific rim which can be run tubed or tubeless and is competitive with carbon offers... Velocity Aileron is 25 mm wide, 28 mm deep and weighs 460 grams... 86 quid a pop is not cheap, but as before, I think it has to be compared with carbon alternative rather than alloy and in that respect it comes cheaper

Is that road tubeless (ie high pressure) or CX tubeless (like Iron Cross)? If it's the latter, what do these rims give you (other than an extra 75g) that something like Iron Cross don't?

One issue I've seen with wider clincher rims (Iron Cross in my case) is that the tyres end up wider, which reduces mud clearance (big issue in sticky conditions) and also risks making them UCI-illegal. A set of Clements, theoretically 33mm, come out more like 45mm on Iron Cross rims (though I'm sceptical they'd be as low as 33mm on anything). This was a big issue at the World Masters, apparently.

For CX, if you have the money/inclination for carbon rims, I reckon you should go the whole hog and go to tubs. In fact, you'll be better off with tubs on old school Reflex rims than carbon clinchers.

My recommendation to @PorlyWorly would be to get a set of Open Pro rims built up on Novatec D711/D712 hubs. Simple, cheap, robust, and fairly light (435 g per rim IIRC). With road tyres and inner tubes, I don't think there's much to gain from anything more exotic. I've even run Open Pros tubeless quite successfully (though I'm not recommending it).

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

PorlyWorly wrote:

Clinchers with tubes, mostly for road riding (commuting) in the wet so just normal road tyres.

Plan is to put some studded tyres on the stock wheels for when the ice & snow decend, save having to mess about with swapping tyres (just swap wheels)

There is a new disc specific rim which can be run tubed or tubeless and is competitive with carbon offers... Velocity Aileron is 25 mm wide, 28 mm deep and weighs 460 grams... 86 quid a pop is not cheap, but as before, I think it has to be compared with carbon alternative rather than alloy and in that respect it comes cheaper

Is that road tubeless (ie high pressure) or CX tubeless (like Iron Cross)? If it's the latter, what do these rims give you (other than an extra 75g) that something like Iron Cross don't?

One issue I've seen with wider clincher rims (Iron Cross in my case) is that the tyres end up wider, which reduces mud clearance (big issue in sticky conditions) and also risks making them UCI-illegal. A set of Clements, theoretically 33mm, come out more like 45mm on Iron Cross rims (though I'm sceptical they'd be as low as 33mm on anything). This was a big issue at the World Masters, apparently.

For CX, if you have the money/inclination for carbon rims, I reckon you should go the whole hog and go to tubs. In fact, you'll be better off with tubs on old school Reflex rims than carbon clinchers.

My recommendation to @PorlyWorly would be to get a set of Open Pro rims built up on Novatec D711/D712 hubs. Simple, cheap, robust, and fairly light (435 g per rim IIRC). With road tyres and inner tubes, I don't think there's much to gain from anything more exotic. I've even run Open Pros tubeless quite successfully (though I'm not recommending it).

Unlike Iron Cross, the Aileron takes all tyres down to 23 mm, so ideal for the OP who looks for road use mainly. Iron Cross is tubeless only and won't take road tyres or high pressures... that's the difference.

Open PRO is still a great road rim if a bit dated, but do not use it tubeless... one thing is lapping in the mud with 20 PSI another is riding on tarmac at 90 PSI.