Has the boom reached its peak?
Comments
-
VamP wrote:Why is it the fault of the 'cat. system' that these guys lacked commitment? You don't need whole lot of talent to reach and maintain 2nd cat, so it's not even clear that them giving up cycling was a big loss?
From where I am sat, I am not seeing any shortage of genuine male talent making it to the highest levels. It's a different story for female cycling, sadly.
My point is in their progression they hit a wall... teams like Plowman-Craven made mostly of 25-30 years old were scooping all the prizes... there was no room for progression any longer, as the system had become unfair at that level... Is it the only way to go? Don't think so, look at the 2007 Plowman Craven rooster and tell me who made it as a PRO...left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:When I was part of a club, we a small number of potentially talented 18 years old guys... they got into racing and got sucked into the cat. system. They easily progressed to cat.3 and a couple made it to cat. 2...
Any 18 year old with a bit of training in their legs who has the necessary talent to contemplate being a pro will rise through the "cat" system with ease. All/most the top pros were beating the top local seniors in their mid teens I would suspect.0 -
UK racing for amateurs is too short, based on too many crits and unless you ve the budget to go to Europe or live nr a track, you ve no or little chance of making it.
for females its even worse, my daughter races as YA but for her and the other 100's of riders, there is nothing for them, even seasoned BC coaches say their years as junior women are wasted years, as they develop, able to compete with the older senior women - BC complain so many drop out of the sport... well I wonder why???
Welsh cycling has had to double the number of places allocated to Y A/B Icebreaker series places, so there is plenty of riders out there.
BC have no separate pathway dev for them, no national junior series for them, indeed, when I and my GF came fwd with a plan to have a 3/4 mens race (to fund the girls race) alongside a female junior race, BC regional officials said they would nt support it....why? they would nt say!
imo BC never sent a woman to the WC TT because women pro's have recently voiced sexism complaints against BC and so this is their small minded way to "put them in their place" there is no other explanation,
as said, if every country took this stance, we d have some very sparsely contended championships around the world.0 -
Unfortunately female cycling is anon event... I wonder how many know that the day before the Tour of Flanders they run the female Tour of Flanders... nobody cares... not even in cycling mad Belgium!
left the forum March 20230 -
I'm not arguing that everything is hunkydory, but it must be better than it was. There are a very great deal more world-class British pros than there were 15 or 20 years ago.mamba80 wrote:UK racing for amateurs is too short, based on too many crits and unless you ve the budget to go to Europe or live nr a track, you ve no or little chance of making it.
What evidence do you have to support this 'explanation'?imo BC never sent a woman to the WC TT because women pro's have recently voiced sexism complaints against BC and so this is their small minded way to "put them in their place" there is no other explanation...
Ruth0 -
I said it was my "opinion" I don't need to provide an explanation, I ve seen how BC "works" club coaches putting their own kids first, team regional selectors putting their riders fwd and even teams selected on who has the most cash to sponsor the team.
As one parent said to me "want your kids on RSR's or regional teams? become a club coach!!!!
as much as I love cycling and racing, its fundamentally a corrupt sport.
Its certainly completely different to what we experienced in Athletics.0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Unfortunately female cycling is anon event... I wonder how many know that the day before the Tour of Flanders they run the female Tour of Flanders... nobody cares... not even in cycling mad Belgium!
but it shouldn't be, female tennis and Athletics show the punter will watch female sport, national bodies don't give equal support, result is un equal racing.
Cycling in the UK anyhow, is a male dominated sport, from top to bottom and those women in it, coaches, officials etc, seem to go along with the status quo, probably why they are still in it
0 -
mamba80 wrote:but it shouldn't be, female tennis and Athletics show the punter will watch female sport, national bodies don't give equal support, result is un equal racing.
Cycling in the UK anyhow, is a male dominated sport, from top to bottom and those women in it, coaches, officials etc, seem to go along with the status quo, probably why they are still in it
It's not a UK problem... nobody cares about female cycling anywhere, sadly... nobody even cares about Marianne Vos in Holland!... nobody watch the races (not even in Belgium, we were in Oudenaarde in 2011 when the female RVV started... very very few people around), sponsors don't want to put the money in and the races are harder to organise... it's one of those things... you can pump money in the system, but ultimately if nobody cares I am not even sure there needs to be a PRO female circuit if it's financially unsustainable. Maybe it needs to separate itself from the male racing scene to be successful, rather than trying to be the pale shadow of it... the female TdF is frankly uninspiringleft the forum March 20230 -
Ah. Seems an odd thing to do though: take two totally unrelated issues and form an opinion that one has caused the other. Women pros voice sexism complaints and because of this BC decides not to send any senior TT women to the World Champs? :?mamba80 wrote:I said it was my "opinion" I don't need to provide an explanation, I ve seen how BC "works" club coaches putting their own kids first, team regional selectors putting their riders fwd and even teams selected on who has the most cash to sponsor the team.
I don't see "corruption" at club level in relation to kids, RSRs and regional teams. British Cycling can't be held accountable for every selection decision made by every volunteer coach and such a decision doesn't mean the whole of the governing body and/or sport is corrupt.As one parent said to me "want your kids on RSR's or regional teams? become a club coach!!!! as much as I love cycling and racing, its fundamentally a corrupt sport. Its certainly completely different to what we experienced in Athletics.
You've obviously had a very bad experience which has made you very bitter - which is a big shame. Perhaps locally for you the situation is bad, but I don't believe that is the case everywhere. In fact I know it isn't the case everywhere.
Ruth0 -
I do not believe that you can say I am bitter or whatever based on my cynicism of club cycle sport, I see and hear what goes on and base my opinions on that - I have not had a "very bad experience" but I have been on club committee and a regional work grp and see how the "old boy" network is a live and kicking
you make your living out of coaching, so of course you come at it from a different perspective.
too much is always made to defend club coaches etc by saying "oh they are volunteers" so what? no one made them do their role and if they don't like it or cant do their job, then quit.
the parent who made the comment about becoming a club coach, select your own kids, has children racing at a high level, is she bitter? she went onto say "I don't know how certain BC officials have the nerve to draw a salary"
A parent went to BC voicing concerns about FB and club coach using it to make contact with youth riders.... strangely, her child was dropped from continuing in RSR's but probably co incidence.
Does this happen in all regions probably but to a greater or lesser degree.
BC so far have provided absolutely nothing for youth A females going into junior ranks, they fall off a cliff, there isn't even a separate dev programme, BC telling LArmistead there are not going to do that, period! - why aren't they supporting this growing band of riders? this is a real issue that BC being male dominated, wont address.0 -
mamba80 wrote:I said it was my "opinion" I don't need to provide an explanation, I ve seen how BC "works" club coaches putting their own kids first, team regional selectors putting their riders fwd and even teams selected on who has the most cash to sponsor the team.
As one parent said to me "want your kids on RSR's or regional teams? become a club coach!!!!
as much as I love cycling and racing, its fundamentally a corrupt sport.
Its certainly completely different to what we experienced in Athletics.
I can only speak for my own club but out of about 8 qualified coaches running sessions every week none have kids in the RSR and quite a few don't even have kids who ride. Our most experienced coach had to give up on club duties when he took a role on the junior development side of things at Welsh Cycling to try to ensure allegations like this couldn't be levelled at him. I can only speak from my own local experiences but the local RSR seems very fair and I haven't seen a child from any club get in without the ability to back it up.0 -
As above. It would be absolutely fruitless to get your own kids onto RSR simply for being a coach. They are either good enough or they are not - and if they are not, then it would become apparent very quickly, regardless of their relationship to the coaches.
I agree that there is a bit of a gap once the girls leave youth A, but I can't agree that this is some form of 'male consipracy' to subjugate youth A girls, or their parents for that matter.
(I speak as a club L2 coach, incidentally)0 -
"a bit of a gap????" understatement of the year!!!
anyone who saw the recent IRRC and the national youth series races for girls, knows there are more YA's racing than ever before....yet BC don't provide for them as they do the boys... why is that? agreed, not a conspiracy... more a state of thought or mind perhaps?
According to BC (senior pathway coach) 75% of YA girls leave the sport once juniors, the figure for boys is about 40%, they go from having a national series of their own, to nothing at all, so hardly surprising is it?0 -
Yes, a 'bit of a gap' - ie something that could be filled usefully with a Junior women's series, perhaps. I'm sure we've had this conversation before, and I think the suggestion last time was to push for inclusion (albeit in a separate race) in the National Junior Series. Would seem like the logical thing to do, I would have thought..0
-
at present its huge gap because there is no junior series and no separate pathway for females, in other words, aside from track, they vanish of the radar.
as for your idea, nat junior races are organised by clubs, in the main, who don't want to bare any financial loss but my point is... BC should be doing this, its a glaring omission and unless they are obtuse they see it too.0 -
mamba80 wrote:at present its huge gap because there is no junior series and no separate pathway for females, in other words, aside from track, they vanish of the radar.
as for your idea, nat junior races are organised by clubs, in the main, who don't want to bare any financial loss but my point is... BC should be doing this, its a glaring omission and unless they are obtuse they see it too.
If there is as much demand for a junior women's series as you seem to think, then the clubs should not be too worried about losing money on the event.0 -
its this attitude that is the problem, I m sorry to say - its only a few girls and lets face it, they should be holding a flag or make the tea's.
if it were the boys who had no national series once juniors, this would not be tolerated.
you ll never truly know the demand unless one tries, you have to start some where - our attempts at running a one off event, with a supporting mens 3/4 race was blocked by BC.0 -
I can think of a fair few junior women who have not vanished off the radar in the last few years. There was a Junior Women's National Road Race Championship as part of the Ryedale GP in July (contested by 12 riders) and BC sent four junior women to contest the World Championships. There isn't equality of opportunity with the men and everything isn't rosy for the junior women in terms of support but it's an awful lot better than it was 10-15 years ago.mamba80 wrote:at present its huge gap because there is no junior series and no separate pathway for females, in other words, aside from track, they vanish of the radar.
The situation is different for junior women because of the lack of strength and depth amongst senior women. Often junior women are capable of being very competitive in the senior ranks and because the number of junior women riders is so low their best chance of a decent race is to mix it with the seniors. I'm sure junior women can gain from senior women's 2,3,4 racing.as for your idea, nat junior races are organised by clubs, in the main, who don't want to bare any financial loss but my point is... BC should be doing this, its a glaring omission and unless they are obtuse they see it too.
Ruth0 -
As Ruth points out, junior women can more than hold their own in the women's series as the step up is a smaller gap than it is for men. I suspect the shortage of a junior women's series is much more likely to be due to a shortage of riders rather than a lack of riders being due to no series.
I'd actually say junior road racing in general is in trouble. The race I organise each year only has a handful of junior men enter whereas in years gone by there would be a separate 3/Jun race that would have 30 or 40 junior riders just locally. This could be a result of the change from juniors all being one category meaning that those who aren't in higher categories are scared to get into a race with senior 2nd cat men.0 -
mamba80 wrote:its this attitude that is the problem, I m sorry to say - its only a few girls and lets face it, they should be holding a flag or make the tea's.
What attitude? I've already said that there is a gap for girls after youth A - and that a series in line with the junior (male) series might be a way forward. Which you agreed with, I think.0 -
Getting back to my OP we are now finding that in our club a lot of the so-called "old guard" have had enough and are stepping aside.
Will be interested to see how local time trial events proceed.0 -
jimmythecuckoo wrote:Getting back to my OP we are now finding that in our club a lot of the so-called "old guard" have had enough and are stepping aside.
Will be interested to see how local time trial events proceed.
It's the same wherever you go unfortunately, any hobby that requires volunteers to give their time to run events for others will have the same group of people coming forward again and again whilst a majority freeload. At one (smaller) club I was a member of their TT series rarely had a shortage of volunteers, and everyone would know if you didn't help out a few times through the season.
In my current much larger club that also has more outsiders taking part in the club events we seem to have so fewer helpers despite more riders, probably as people can dissapear into the crowd without questions. The road racing scene seems to have even fewer volunteers despite encouragement to marshal at least one event in the series you race in.
I've been helping at another society outside of cycling for many more years and it's still the same people doing the work, and there are fewer of us each year despite overall membership staying constant or even growing- it is a struggle nowadays.0 -
I agree - a few things come to mind:iron-clover wrote:jimmythecuckoo wrote:Getting back to my OP we are now finding that in our club a lot of the so-called "old guard" have had enough and are stepping aside.
Will be interested to see how local time trial events proceed.
It's the same wherever you go unfortunately, any hobby that requires volunteers to give their time to run events for others will have the same group of people coming forward again and again whilst a majority freeload.
One is that the quality of the leadership in any club or organisation is absolutely crucial to the involvement and attitudes of its members - it is possible to improve participation and volunteering with the right leadership. Any club is only as good as its committee and leaders - they set the tone of everything.
Secondly, there are a lot of ways in which we buy things and expect a service these days - people are a lot more willing to pay for something which might have been free or very cheap in the past (take sportives, bike fitting and coaching as three examples just within cycling) - but with that comes an attitude of being a consumer rather than a participant. Cycling clubs are only going to have to work harder to maintain the distinction between being a service provider and a club.
Thirdly, I have seen it for myself - newcomers arriving at a club and immediately being critical about what the club doesn't offer, not realising that as a club member it was their own responsibility to organise things as much as the next person's. Again, it falls on the club's leadership to manage that situation - and I don't think every club does that well.
TBH, given all the challenges of running a cycling club I'm amazed as many survive as well as they do!
Ruth0 -
I think that's a pretty decent post to be fair.
Sums it up perfectly.0 -
At the moment, no sign down here that any peak has been reached. I'm seeing more and more people on road bikes, including road bikes being ridden into what were once the 'tough' high schools with, er, 'interesting' reputations. Once upon a time that would have been a sure-fire way of getting ripped apart.
And from the club side, the introduction of Go-Ride, and using Facebook as an essential tool for getting the younger members involved seems to be paying off. Of course there's always chasing about to get marshals etc. for every event, but it's always been like that in any organisation I've been in - nothing new there. But there's no place for complacency, for sure - however well things appear to be going, you've still got to think about each aspect/event, and ask yourselves whether you can do it better. It's not enough to hope that volunteers will just offer/turn up - but generally when people are asked directly "please will you do x to help make this happen", if you've got the group ethos in the right sort of place, people will help - and then you've got them on side for the future.
I think our next club move should be to try to go into the high schools and tap into the latent talent there. If road cycling can make inroads in these types of places, then the prospects can still be rosy.0 -
0
-
Opening paragraph "The statistics are however based on the National Transport Model (NTM), which has been widely criticised and accused of persistently overestimating future car use."
Looks really useful.0 -
I think if there is any perception the bubble (whatever that is) is bursting can be influenced by winter.
Some riders don't go out in winter as much or at all, and so you can peddle the lanes on a Sunday morning and them feel more empty.0 -
If the industry insists on selling only full on racing machines coming from the wind tunnel, the boom will peak and revert... I have seen it in other sports... windsurf being one. It was fun, but at one point in the 90s they only sold uber expensive equipment which was hard to use in normal conditions by normal people, the average board didn't even have enough volume to float with a person on top... the sport pretty much disappeared from the radar within 5 years. They then tried to recapture the spirit of the early days with big boards and easier to rig and use sails, but it was too late... kite surf had already taken over.
Mountain bike is now less popular than 10 years ago for exactly the same reasons... you can't spend 3-4 grand for a machine that needs another grand per year to run smoothly... that was not the spirit of Gary Fisher & co.
The road bike industry has to follow and set trends and stop having the UCI circus as the only reference point. Luckily Shimano understand that, but they are pretty much the only big player who gets itleft the forum March 20230
