Has the boom reached its peak?

jimmythecuckoo

I am speaking to more and more people who I know, all over the place, with a common statement that racing is suffering.

There are lots of riders and lots of possibilities when it comes to racing. However, there are not many people stepping up to volunteer.

Throw in audits of time trial courses meaning an increase in the number of marshalls needed to put a race on and you have a bit of a problem.

I just wondered if my sample of folk was coincidental or representative.

mclarent

Not a new problem unfortunately. When cycling was less popular, we could just about survive on old boys who were "past their prime" and happy to put back in. With a surge in popularity amongst younger riders, we need some of them to step up. In ELV it's mandatory to assist at our own events, and I'd suggest other clubs do the same, but that does require racers / cyclists to be club members... And clubs to put on events...

jimmythecuckoo

We had a rota worked out before a course inspection more than doubled the number of marshalls we need.

Lookyhere

My GF has put on several v successful races inc div champs... but she has had enough, no support from club, emails from riders demanding refunds if they withdraw, arguing over results, being let down by REO - BC over accredited marshals - its just a ball ache, so she wont do another event any time soon.
BC are useless, they expect "volunteers" to put on these races and then do nothing in return, just a paltry basic membership fee - which you have anyhow, in order to put on the race... so they are giving you back nothing.

I suspect that fairly soon (maybe 5 years or so) amateur RR will be a thing of the past, it ll be closed cct only.

maryka

Vote at your local regional council AGM folks, if you're not happy with the way your region is running things. Better yet, run for a council place yourself and experience it all first-hand.

I'd like to think the SE Region does a decent job of putting on racing AND supporting race organisers. Our REO and RCA work pretty hard, and have a lot of work to do, being the biggest region in the country. But if other regions aren't happy, then talk to HQ (who is the employer of REOs) and your region chair and secretary. Info all found online or at the start of the annual handbook.

I can say with some sureness that very few BC HQ or regional level council members read this forum...

danlikesbikes

Guess I'm quite lucky where I live but we have a local association too which all the clubs are affiliated and in return are expected to supply marshals for events.

TBF we do get people who say they turn up and don't or their cat ate their homework and can't make it. But we all pitch in and help out.

Think the races seem to have a wider range of local clubs turning up too so it benefits everyone really.

mclarent

The ERRL works quite well from a "reciprocal racing" perspective, members need to put on a race and in return get a priority entry for their racers. Seems to be a good model, but I know some of the smaller clubs still do struggle to get the volunteers. I don't think racing will die in 5 years, but there are definite organisational advantages to closed circuits which will see them continue to prosper IMO.

Lookyhere

madasahattersley wrote:

I think saying that road racing only has 5 years left is tosh. There are plenty of organisers who are willing to put up with all the BS associated with trying to organise an event in a sport where the governing body only cares about money. I have only been racing 4 years but throughout that time there's always been the same complaining about "not enough people putting back" and I don't imagine it's ever going to go away either.

I respect your view and I sincerely hope you are correct, but with ever increasing pressure on road space and BC pouring money into match funding for closed ccts and velodromes, why would they do that, if they also see the writing is on the wall for open road cct's ?
Maryka - BC do jack for volunteers and yes we r both on a regional committee and its run by an old boys network, we will both step down this autumn, a fuggin waste of 2 years trying to change a thing - even getting them to adopt BC best practice is impossible

Torbay council recently spent 100s of £k on a new cct and it will need to used wont it? there is a finite resource of folk willing to put on races and if they are encouraged to use a closed road one, they wont do a RR will they?

DeVlaeminck

Here in the East Mids there are far more open road races than there were 5-6 years ago. OK so much of it does depend on organisers (of which I'm one but some do far more than me) who could decide to pack it in tomorrow but it was always thus. When I first put on a race the only help was Paul West (I think) on the end of a phone line - although to be fair he was very good - so while there isn't loads of support now there is more than there was.

shockedsoshocked

Racing doesn't just rely on volunteers to organise and marshall, you also need to have a local authority and Police force that are willing to allow you to put races on in the area. Unfortunately up here some of them are less than cooperative.

Basically the cycling equivalent of doing this:

mclarent

Surely he can't demand more than what's deemed necessary by the risk assessment?

Pross

I find it hard to get enough people in to run my event. I end up relying on friends who cycled when I first started but haven't been club members for nearly 20 years (they do it out of respect for the person whose memory the race in held in) and this year I only managed to get enough drivers for the lead cars thanks to someone from another club offering help. I gave up trying to run the weekly club time trials as no-one was helping out and hardly any club riders took part.

I think there's a few issues at play; in my clubs case we have over 200 members but a large proportion are kids and their (often non-cycling) parents, in the past most people's racing days were over in their early 40s and they would start volunteering whereas now people are continuing to race for much longer and finally the general attitude that someone else will do it (which has always existed). I'm lucky in that Wales has a strong group of accredited marshalls that I can (have to) use for marshalling junctions in addition to the NEG riders. If I needed to find people to marshall junctions from within the club I wouldn't be able to run my race.

The amount of cost and hassle seems to increase each year and the only reason I keep the race going is out of respect for the person it is named after and the huge amount he did for the club and cycling / cyclists in South Wales before he passed away.

shockedsoshocked

mclarent wrote:

Surely he can't demand more than what's deemed necessary by the risk assessment?

He writes it, or used to.

Pross

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

mclarent wrote:

Surely he can't demand more than what's deemed necessary by the risk assessment?

He writes it, or used to. He has been haggled down, however there's been a refusal to allow trained marshalls to stop traffic by the local Police/authority using stop/go signs, which would cut costs enormously.

So am I getting this right? He's ex-police and the police / council won't let any race take place unless he has approved the risk assessments (which he writes) and all the traffic management and marshalls have to be supplied by him? That smacks of corruption to me and really needs challenging using best practice elsewhere in the country.

shockedsoshocked

Pross wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

mclarent wrote:

Surely he can't demand more than what's deemed necessary by the risk assessment?

He writes it, or used to. He has been haggled down, however there's been a refusal to allow trained marshalls to stop traffic by the local Police/authority using stop/go signs, which would cut costs enormously.

So am I getting this right? He's ex-police and the police / council won't let any race take place unless he has approved the risk assessments (which he writes) and all the traffic management and marshalls have to be supplied by him? That smacks of corruption to me and really needs challenging using best practice elsewhere in the country.

This was the case, although I've not raced this year so it may have changed. Without a few kind local business' willing to fork out for the traffic management (luckily cyclists themselves) road races in Cleveland possibly wouldn't happen. Racing on the open roads in Durham is not allowed (if I remember correctly), but we are allowed circuits in Northumberland, which whilst excellent, usually result in a drive of a couple of hours for a lot of people only to get dropped on the first massive hill they come to, so as a consequence very few people enter and races get cancelled. Although in my honest opinion they don't want road cycling to happen on the roads at all. You can race a full season on a closed circuit 2 or 3 times a week if you want though.

But BC get your membership and levy money still each time you race round a 2km circuit, so why would they care?

Pross

I didn't think the police or council could stop racing on the highway. My local force always sends an organiser a letter saying they cannot stop a race taking place but basically that they expect it to result in everyone getting killed and when that happens they will say 'told you so' (to paraphrase slightly!).

themogulman

I wanted to use a new circuit for a RR and the police in South Derbys were need to sign it off.

shockedsoshocked

Pross wrote:

I didn't think the police or council could stop racing on the highway. My local force always sends an organiser a letter saying they cannot stop a race taking place but basically that they expect it to result in everyone getting killed and when that happens they will say 'told you so' (to paraphrase slightly!).

I think you've got what would be considered a cooperative force in that case!

ugo.santalucia

Racing in this country is hopeless... the majority of a field is formed by adults who want to experience the excitement of being in a race, but obviously have no future. My view is that there should be age restrictions to cat. racing and as soon as you pass the age of 20 or so you should go with a bunch of veterans and various hobbyists and time wasters. It's easy to miss talent if you squeeze it in a bunch of old farts... it doesn't work like that in the continent obviously, where the old farts compete in the granfondo circuit and climb the big mountains pretending to be their heroes and they are content and pleased with themselves, as they should. Obviously Granfondo and bicycle racing are two worlds apart that almost never come into contact

DavidJB

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Racing in this country is hopeless... the majority of a field is formed by adults who want to experience the excitement of being in a race, but obviously have no future. My view is that there should be age restrictions to cat. racing and as soon as you pass the age of 20 or so you should go with a bunch of veterans and various hobbyists and time wasters. It's easy to miss talent if you squeeze it in a bunch of old farts... it doesn't work like that in the continent obviously, where the old farts compete in the granfondo circuit and climb the big mountains pretending to be their heroes and they are content and pleased with themselves, as they should. Obviously Granfondo and bicycle racing are two worlds apart that almost never come into contact

So you're not allowed to race unless you're 'going to make it', going to be awesome fun for those 2 people racing then. While we're at it better stop Sunday league football. This is the most ridiculous of your usual ridiculous posts. It's so stupid I can't help think you're trolling.

I'm never 'going to make it' nor do I care...I wouldn't want to be a pro cyclist even if Brailsford rocked up with a contract tomorrow but I do love competing and riding my bike as hard as I can and spend a significant proportion of my life trying to get better at it. So kindly take your silly comments and go back to whining about factory built wheels.

ugo.santalucia

DavidJB wrote:

So you're not allowed to race unless you're 'going to make it', going to be awesome fun for those 2 people racing then. While we're at it better stop Sunday league football. This is the most ridiculous of your usual ridiculous posts. It's so stupid I can't help think you're trolling.

I'm never 'going to make it' nor do I care...I wouldn't want to be a pro cyclist even if Brailsford rocked up with a contract tomorrow but I do love competing and riding my bike as hard as I can and spend a significant proportion of my life trying to get better at it. So kindly take your silly comments and go back to whining about factory built wheels.

Before your blood pressure gets too high and you get a stroke, read again: what I said is that for a healthy racing scene, the young promising riders should compete between themselves and not against a bunch of seasoned Mamils... I have nothing against the latter competing, if they so wish, but what I see being the big problem in this country is the lack of talent coming out because of the way the racing scene is structured. No wonder teenagers have to go and race in the continent to be taken seriously. I wish BC addressed the situation putting money towards a structure that allows a young talent to make it without having to go abroad.

Out of curiosity? Do you think the UK racing scene is the way forward to achieve results?

As I said, I am not against middle aged men having a bit of fun around a track, but we all know in the grand scheme of things is pretty pointless and not worth investment... it's a hobby, just like sunday league football and as you know the FA doesn't pump money into sunday league football

ugo.santalucia

Pross wrote:

I didn't think the police or council could stop racing on the highway. My local force always sends an organiser a letter saying they cannot stop a race taking place but basically that they expect it to result in everyone getting killed and when that happens they will say 'told you so' (to paraphrase slightly!).

I think the same challenges are faced by organisers of non competitive events like sportives. In the case of races it's worse, there is a general lack of support from the public, which reflects in councils and police giving organisers a hard time. If you flip the coin, you can perfectly sympathise with local residents who face the disruption for no gain at all. There is virtually no input to the local economy and as the field is mostly filled by competitors who will most likely never achieve anything in racing worth closing a road or causing delays, there is no return in that respect either.
Let's face it, in France the public might sympathise with racing because they see a bunch of young riders and among them there might be the next Bernard Hinault... here nobody knows who Bernard Hinault is, a few know Bradely Wiggins, but the next Bradley Wiggins is probably racing in France against the next Bernard Hinault...

fleshtuxedo

Ugo, your valid points would be more effective in influencing other people's minds if expressed in a less abrasive manner. Just in case you're bothered about that

ugo.santalucia

FleshTuxedo wrote:

Ugo, your valid points would be more effective in influencing other people's minds if expressed in a less abrasive manner. Just in case you're bothered about that

Probably... I am just providing a different view... more in line with what Joe Average taxpayer thinks of road racing. I think people will stop, get off their car and cheer a bunch of 10 years old racing in a closed road circuit, whilst they might have a completely different attitude towards the same bunch of adults doing exactly the same thing... can you blame them?

shockedsoshocked

I did write an essay but I'll sum up my feelings on BC and development.

BC seemingly is only interested in developing a select few riders through the track programme, which feeds into the elite calender (which is sparse anyway) or ships them off to the continent.

It is not interested in the gap between youth/junior racing on closed circuits and the Premier Calender events and everyone else has to do it off their own back. You now have riders with elite category licenses because they can race on 2km flat circuits all year (which is a terrible system in itself) who get spat out of the back of an elite category event within the first 10miles. Where's the incentive in that? Every level of cycling should be catered for, and until the range of events is broadened you'll always only have a trickle of riders every few years who can go on to be successful in Europe.

You cannot compete with the Belgians and the Dutch who can race 3 or 4 times a week from being kids. It's as simple as that. The boom has happened and BC has not capitalised on securing or promoting events or using the impetus after Wiggins Tour/Olympic TT victories and Cavendishs World Champs (and numerous GT stage wins) to get local authorities, councils and the Police on side. Why strive for British Road Cycling success abroad without laying a proper foundation for it at home.

My personal view of British Cycling is that it's a bit of a cash cow.

wallace_and_gromit

ugo.santalucia wrote:

...for a healthy racing scene, the young promising riders should compete between themselves and not against a bunch of seasoned Mamils...

Isn't this the point of Junior races?

The problem is that there aren't many junior who get into bike racing in the UK. There was a series of closed circuit races in York earlier this year, with races for juniors, ladies and men (Cat 4 only and then Cat 2/3/4).

The junior races were sparsely populated, as was the ladies' race. The two mens' races were both oversubscribed, so this is where the demand is, many of whom based on pre and post race banter were relative newcomers to the sport. When it comes to staging proper road races, if there's limited availability in terms of Police cooperation, volunteers and local goodwill, then it's obvious that "MAMIL" racing is going to get prioritised at the expense of an "Under 20, very promising" category.

It's not just racing. Do a headcount of roadies out at the weekend and you see a few pensioners, a few women, masses of middle aged guys and a few kids.

So tinkering with the race system doesn't seem to be tackling the problem of talent spotting in the UK within cycling. The trick is to pursuade aerobically gifted kids to become cyclists rather than triathletes. The common route for active kids who aren't into ball sports is to start with competitive swimming (cheap, safe, easy to get to, no parental supervision required, don't need to be strong so can start very young etc.) and athletics (cheap) though this isn't as popular as swimming. The talented kids then end up in triathlon, where GB is a world power, even without the Brownlees, or rowing, if they are big and end up at a suitable Uni (where talent spotting of rowers is finely honed). GB seems to have a lot of very talented DH mountain bikers as well. Maybe road riding in the UK just isn't very appealing to the youngsters?

It doesn't help that "proper" cyclists tend to take the p*ss out of triathletes, which does nothing to pursuade young triathletes to concentrate on cycling if they were so inclined.

BeaconRuth

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

So tinkering with the race system doesn't seem to be tackling the problem of talent spotting in the UK within cycling.

Is there a problem with talent spotting? BC seem to have a fair old pipeline of very promising youngsters who are competitive at world level in the junior and U23 ranks. Are we facing a future in any Olympic cycling discipline of not having world-class riders, either male or female?

Ruth

maryka

BeaconRuth wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

So tinkering with the race system doesn't seem to be tackling the problem of talent spotting in the UK within cycling.

Is there a problem with talent spotting? BC seem to have a fair old pipeline of very promising youngsters who are competitive at world level in the junior and U23 ranks. Are we facing a future in any Olympic cycling discipline of not having world-class riders, either male or female?

Ruth

I guess we'll see if BC sends any of the junior women to the world's TT next year, given that none of them podiumed this year. :roll: Apparently a guaranteed podium finish is a prerequisite for senior women.

To answer your question, I think talent is being spotted but BC seems to have a very narrow range of what they are willing to pay for to get young riders experience. E.g., any track Olympic event, yes. Cyclocross, no way.

BeaconRuth

maryka wrote:

To answer your question, I think talent is being spotted but BC seems to have a very narrow range of what they are willing to pay for to get young riders experience. E.g., any track Olympic event, yes. Cyclocross, no way.

There's an obvious reason why they don't support cyclocross. Rightly or wrongly - but it is clear why.

Ruth

ugo.santalucia

When I was part of a club, we a small number of potentially talented 18 years old guys... they got into racing and got sucked into the cat. system. They easily progressed to cat.3 and a couple made it to cat. 2... but then the pressure of having to always race to score points and always race against older, more experienced, better equipped riders with access to cars and budget to travel around for races took the toll and AFAIK they have all abandoned. They might have abandoned anyway, but I see it as pretty pointless that they had to compete against a 30 years old Tony Gibb, fully sponsored, with team mates, who needed a few points to keep his status

VamP

ugo.santalucia wrote:

When I was part of a club, we a small number of potentially talented 18 years old guys... they got into racing and got sucked into the cat. system. They easily progressed to cat.3 and a couple made it to cat. 2... but then the pressure of having to always race to score points and always race against older, more experienced, better equipped riders with access to cars and budget to travel around for races took the toll and AFAIK they have all abandoned. They might have abandoned anyway, but I see it as pretty pointless that they had to compete against a 30 years old Tony Gibb, fully sponsored, with team mates, who needed a few points to keep his status

Why is it the fault of the 'cat. system' that these guys lacked commitment? You don't need whole lot of talent to reach and maintain 2nd cat, so it's not even clear that them giving up cycling was a big loss?

From where I am sat, I am not seeing any shortage of genuine male talent making it to the highest levels. It's a different story for female cycling, sadly.